Comments on: Sunday – the latest book by Craig Harline

By: Wilfried

Wilfried — Wed, 09 May 2007 18:57:21 +0000

The discussion has been great on this thread. Thanks to all of you. A special thanks to Craig Harline who has been most helpful with comments from his expertise.

By: Margaret Young

Margaret Young — Wed, 09 May 2007 18:33:43 +0000

Fascinating, Craig! Of course, in the early LDS church, fasting was on Thursdays, not Sundays.

By: Craig Harline

Craig Harline — Wed, 09 May 2007 17:47:47 +0000

99: Margaret, thanks for your note. Your comment on fasting reminded me of something else. Fasting was never to occur on Sunday, because fasting implied soberness, and Sunday was to be a day of joy! In fact, when Christians began to denigrate the Jewish Sabbath, one way they did it was to fast on the Sabbath. I just thought that was an interesting tidbit from Christian history, given our fast Sundays!

By: Margaret Young

Margaret Young — Wed, 09 May 2007 17:27:00 +0000

What a wonderful opportunity to engage an author!
Right now, my husband and I spend much of our Sundays at the Missionary Training Center, where the schedule is very strict. I am not nearly as strict in our home, and have been known to express frustration when something like fasting was approached with a “do it or be damned” attitude rather than with joy and patience.

The Guatemalan town where I lived in 1975 had Market Day every Sunday, so all active Church members went to church dutifully, and then directly to the market. So did we.

By: Deb

Deb — Wed, 09 May 2007 17:21:57 +0000

I think that keeping the Sabbath holy is a lot easier on a personal level. The tougher part comes in a more public venue, or even extended-family areas. Our children were raised quite strictly on Sabbath keeping, and it was a conflict to visit the grandparent’s home on Sundays. Grandpa has been a patriarch for 5 decades, Grandma a stake worker, both serve in the temple for many years. Good people—but, in our family, we never watch tv or do Easter egg hunts or have picnics or play volleyball on Sundays, and their pressure to “lighten up” was often intense. I think it was sometimes uncomfortable for the kids, who wore Sunday clothing (minus ties, let’s not get rediculous) and had different standards than the shorts-wearing, beach-seeking, mud-puddle-rolling cousins. Now that they are near adult, my kids have each said they appreciated our values, especially our missionary who already knew what Sundays were for and how to stay dressed up more than an hour! In a more public venue, our daughter and 2 other students in the ward will graduate from high school and also receive a 2 year college degree in 2 weeks, and the college commencment is on a Sunday. The other families are skipping graduation so as to keep the sabbath holy, while I see nothing wrong with attending, rejoicing, then having a simple extended-family dinner afterwards. With no volleyball, of course. The trouble is, as usual, not in what we choose, but in others’ expectations of us.

By: Craig Harline

Craig Harline — Wed, 09 May 2007 17:17:44 +0000

95: sorry for the lack of clarity. “this view” means the Jonathan Edwards view; most American athletes are Christians, and most Mormon athletes implicitly take this view, some explicitly; some perhaps feel that it’s just a necessary evil, but Jonathan Edwards’ point is that it can be more than that.

97: It is more of a personal conclusion than theological conclusion, but if you want to call it personal theology that’s fine too; and I came to the conclusion after doing my research and seeing how various people had approached it, including Mormon examples. I don’t understand what you mean by saying my tolerance isn’t inclusive–I wouldn’t characterize it first of all as tolerance. Tolerance suggests a begrudging attitude. I see it more as really trusting individuals to decide what’s best, in a religious sense, whether they play or not. As to whether it’s inclusive or not, your conclusion about your mission president sounds less inclusive to me: you suggest that he gave up his chance to play because he was responding to a universal truth, and following it, and that others should do the same. This seems a less inclusive view than what I was suggesting, which is that there have been alternative solutions among Christians.

By: Adam Greenwood

Adam Greenwood — Wed, 09 May 2007 17:08:09 +0000

I donâ€™t think those who refuse to play are necessarily any more religious than those who do, but I have no problem if they want to make that choice.

I think we’re wandering back into those theological areas you wanted to avoid, but I have to respond to this. I’m glad your ostensibly tolerant–its better than actually condemning people as narrowminded or strict for not doing professional sports on Sunday–but your tolerance isn’t really inclusive. People like my mission president who gave up fame and fortune to keep the Sabbath didn’t do it because they thought that we all have our different paths and we should customize our Sunday in the way that we most enjoy.

By: Russell Arben Fox

Russell Arben Fox — Wed, 09 May 2007 16:59:42 +0000

“Shops and business are closed (legal requirement, except for the bakeries and some other rare exceptions). There are strict regulations against Sunday noise (like lawnmowers).”

Man, why are all the good laws in Europe?

By: Russell Arben Fox

Russell Arben Fox — Wed, 09 May 2007 16:56:12 +0000

“He explicitly criticized the film Chariots of Fire for suggesting that a truly religious person wouldnâ€™t participate on Sunday. Most Christian athletes have taken this view, including Mormon athletes.”

Does “this view” mean the Eric Liddel one, or the Jonathan Edwards one? I’m unsure of how to read your second sentence.

By: Wilfried

Wilfried — Wed, 09 May 2007 16:52:57 +0000

Rosalynde (86), to answer your question about Belgian Sundays, the best would be to read Craig Harline’s book! He gives excellent data and a good feeling of what these Sundays mean. The final pages of his book describe a remarkable Belgian Sunday afternoon and evening barbecue…

To try briefly: Belgian Sundays are of course as varied as they can be in the U.S., depending on background, interests, family situation, financial abilities… But a general trend would be: very family oriented and with a joyful, festive feeling that makes the day very different from the rest of the week. Coming together as (extended) families is a basic pastime. Shops and business are closed (legal requirement, except for the bakeries and some other rare exceptions). There are strict regulations against Sunday noise (like lawnmowers). When the weather is nice, parks fill with families, walking, playing, feeding the ducks. For part of the population, sports are important and soccer competitions will attract their attention.

Several times a year, the government makes sure castles and museums are free to enter on Sunday. There is also a well-known yearly free train-bus-tram-Sunday, to encourage people (again mostly families) to discover other Belgian cities or nice spots in the countryside. Distances are of course short in Belgium. Festivals, concerts, humanitarian projects will attract other portions of the population. And, oh yes, scouting is important on Sundays and has gained immensely in popularity: about 150,000 scouts do a lot of activities on Sundays (scouting is normally not done in the week).

By contrast, a Belgian Saturday is basically a shopping day and a working-in-the-garden-day.