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	<title>Comments on: Are Mormons American?  Can They Be?</title>
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	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: queuno</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/12/thoughts-on-mormons-in-america/#comment-216172</link>
		<dc:creator>queuno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2007 22:58:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I know I&#039;m a bit late to this party, but I have to say to RR Millward -- we learn more about what America wants from the votes not cast than the votes cast.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know I&#8217;m a bit late to this party, but I have to say to RR Millward &#8212; we learn more about what America wants from the votes not cast than the votes cast.</p>
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		<title>By: RR Millward</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/12/thoughts-on-mormons-in-america/#comment-215813</link>
		<dc:creator>RR Millward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Dec 2006 18:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I read every word; some of it twice. I think I understand the three sides so I will venture a comment after listing the three sides.
1) Can Romney be trusted at all?
2) Can Romney be trusted by people for whom Godly standards exist
3) Can Romney be trusted by people who do not want Godly standards

The question here (though far from the title that brought me here) from all three points of view seems to be &quot;if the major organization that my candidate belongs to made a statement on an issue would I still get my money&#039;s worth from the candidate?&quot;

First, I can assure you that you will never get your money&#039;s worth from any political candidate. That probably can not happen at all today but would require as a basis the candidate&#039;s not wanting to be president (or whatever) in the first place (George Washington style). America is so divided (thanks in the main to politics) that 75%-76% of voters vote against the other candidate (50% don&#039;t vote and half of the 50% who do vote see their candidate as the lesser of two evils). As for my example of not being represented, I have repeatedly for the last 16 years called my representative and requested a vote a certain way on certain issues and gotten &quot;I can&#039;t vote that way - would you like to know why?&quot; So much for representative government.

Second, there are 600+ other national voices to balance things out (or is it just 9 now).

Third, I hope that Obama and Romney both get there (through the party process) and everyone writes in someone who can actually do the job. The parties have not had a sane candidate for many years. They are irrelevant to what America needs and the cause of many of her needs. Nothing pleases me more than a grid-locked congress.

Back to the question &quot;Can I, a Momon, be an American citizen?&quot; the answer is yes. My very good athiest friend thinks that no person who believes in God should be allowed to vote - I think he should be allowed to vote. I will go further: I think there should be a financial penalty for not voting (as in Brasil, I believe). I believe that America will become what her voters become. When half vote then America will be half what it could be. The politicians know this as do the media and they apparently want to sicken the people to the point where no one votes (and there is no America).

Work for unity... but in the mean time, vote.

Sincerely,
RR Millward

RR Millward</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read every word; some of it twice. I think I understand the three sides so I will venture a comment after listing the three sides.<br />
1) Can Romney be trusted at all?<br />
2) Can Romney be trusted by people for whom Godly standards exist<br />
3) Can Romney be trusted by people who do not want Godly standards</p>
<p>The question here (though far from the title that brought me here) from all three points of view seems to be &#8220;if the major organization that my candidate belongs to made a statement on an issue would I still get my money&#8217;s worth from the candidate?&#8221;</p>
<p>First, I can assure you that you will never get your money&#8217;s worth from any political candidate. That probably can not happen at all today but would require as a basis the candidate&#8217;s not wanting to be president (or whatever) in the first place (George Washington style). America is so divided (thanks in the main to politics) that 75%-76% of voters vote against the other candidate (50% don&#8217;t vote and half of the 50% who do vote see their candidate as the lesser of two evils). As for my example of not being represented, I have repeatedly for the last 16 years called my representative and requested a vote a certain way on certain issues and gotten &#8220;I can&#8217;t vote that way &#8211; would you like to know why?&#8221; So much for representative government.</p>
<p>Second, there are 600+ other national voices to balance things out (or is it just 9 now).</p>
<p>Third, I hope that Obama and Romney both get there (through the party process) and everyone writes in someone who can actually do the job. The parties have not had a sane candidate for many years. They are irrelevant to what America needs and the cause of many of her needs. Nothing pleases me more than a grid-locked congress.</p>
<p>Back to the question &#8220;Can I, a Momon, be an American citizen?&#8221; the answer is yes. My very good athiest friend thinks that no person who believes in God should be allowed to vote &#8211; I think he should be allowed to vote. I will go further: I think there should be a financial penalty for not voting (as in Brasil, I believe). I believe that America will become what her voters become. When half vote then America will be half what it could be. The politicians know this as do the media and they apparently want to sicken the people to the point where no one votes (and there is no America).</p>
<p>Work for unity&#8230; but in the mean time, vote.</p>
<p>Sincerely,<br />
RR Millward</p>
<p>RR Millward</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/12/thoughts-on-mormons-in-america/#comment-215808</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Dec 2006 16:41:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3644#comment-215808</guid>
		<description>Amazing...

No doubt, the flood of &quot;second guessing&quot; gushing forth from opponents of the current administration is merely a reaction to the White House&#039;s bent toward &quot;politics&quot; rather than &quot;governance.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amazing&#8230;</p>
<p>No doubt, the flood of &#8220;second guessing&#8221; gushing forth from opponents of the current administration is merely a reaction to the White House&#8217;s bent toward &#8220;politics&#8221; rather than &#8220;governance.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Chino Blanco</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/12/thoughts-on-mormons-in-america/#comment-215805</link>
		<dc:creator>Chino Blanco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Dec 2006 05:55:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3644#comment-215805</guid>
		<description>As a liberal, who, like Romney, was a Tsongas supporter, and until lately would have felt comfortable supporting a Romney bid, I can only chuckle at the suggestion that it&#039;s me, not Romney, who is the hypocrite in need of thinking a little more about what I stand for.  I also don&#039;t agree with Blake&#039;s characterization of Weisberg&#039;s piece as &#039;simple religious bigotry&#039; ... I suppose that the simplest anti-Mormon bigotry is that found among evangelicals, and would allow that a good number of liberals and others are simply bigoted on this count as well, albeit for different reasons, but I thought Weisberg framed his argument well enough that it rises to the level of at least a nuanced bigotry.  In any case, what bothers me about Romney&#039;s candidacy is not his Mormonism per se, but his taking the same tack as the current occupant of the White House in aligning himself with the evangelical wing of the GOP.  6 years ago this might not have seemed so fraught with peril as it does now, but for anyone sympathetic to the damning indictments by guys like David Kuo who&#039;ve described the GOP&#039;s manipulation of the evangelical voters, as witnessed by evangelicals like Kuo, who got inside and then came to realize that even regarding the initiatives gotten under way on behalf of the evangelical base that brought Bush to office, the administration was incompetent, even disinterested, in actually putting useful policy into place ... it was all a veneer of legitimacy for an outfit that was interested only in politics, not governance.  All signs are that Romney similarly thinks playing evangelical politics is a winner ... But, by opting for an all-too-transparent political expediency, he has now undermined any attempts he may make in future to reassure evangelicals or the broader electorate about the role of his Mormon religion in his public decision-making ... Contrary to what Blake asserts, I must now second-guess just about any statement Romney might make about anything.  Now, much more than the issue of Romney&#039;s religion, there will be &#039;truth in packaging&#039; concerns to address, concerns shared by liberals, conservatives and evangelicals alike these days ... The Weisberg piece is just the beginning and Romney will deserve much of the blame if he&#039;s unable to eventually persuade a majority of Americans to think otherwise ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a liberal, who, like Romney, was a Tsongas supporter, and until lately would have felt comfortable supporting a Romney bid, I can only chuckle at the suggestion that it&#8217;s me, not Romney, who is the hypocrite in need of thinking a little more about what I stand for.  I also don&#8217;t agree with Blake&#8217;s characterization of Weisberg&#8217;s piece as &#8216;simple religious bigotry&#8217; &#8230; I suppose that the simplest anti-Mormon bigotry is that found among evangelicals, and would allow that a good number of liberals and others are simply bigoted on this count as well, albeit for different reasons, but I thought Weisberg framed his argument well enough that it rises to the level of at least a nuanced bigotry.  In any case, what bothers me about Romney&#8217;s candidacy is not his Mormonism per se, but his taking the same tack as the current occupant of the White House in aligning himself with the evangelical wing of the GOP.  6 years ago this might not have seemed so fraught with peril as it does now, but for anyone sympathetic to the damning indictments by guys like David Kuo who&#8217;ve described the GOP&#8217;s manipulation of the evangelical voters, as witnessed by evangelicals like Kuo, who got inside and then came to realize that even regarding the initiatives gotten under way on behalf of the evangelical base that brought Bush to office, the administration was incompetent, even disinterested, in actually putting useful policy into place &#8230; it was all a veneer of legitimacy for an outfit that was interested only in politics, not governance.  All signs are that Romney similarly thinks playing evangelical politics is a winner &#8230; But, by opting for an all-too-transparent political expediency, he has now undermined any attempts he may make in future to reassure evangelicals or the broader electorate about the role of his Mormon religion in his public decision-making &#8230; Contrary to what Blake asserts, I must now second-guess just about any statement Romney might make about anything.  Now, much more than the issue of Romney&#8217;s religion, there will be &#8216;truth in packaging&#8217; concerns to address, concerns shared by liberals, conservatives and evangelicals alike these days &#8230; The Weisberg piece is just the beginning and Romney will deserve much of the blame if he&#8217;s unable to eventually persuade a majority of Americans to think otherwise &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/12/thoughts-on-mormons-in-america/#comment-215803</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Dec 2006 02:50:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3644#comment-215803</guid>
		<description>SJL: I am an attorney so the word &quot;or&quot; is always disjunctive and I mean &quot;or&quot; rather than &quot;and&quot; as you have read me. As a voter I would want to know if an elected official would follow his own guiding principles and philosophy rather than that of an unelected religious leader. Once he affirms that he will do so, however, I don&#039;t get to second-guess that statement. No one listens to Mitt Romney -- they foist off on to him what they insist he will do rather than what he says.

David H. -- I actually think that we are in substantial agreement. A voter has a right to know if there is autonomy from a religion or particuar point of view. That is why we have party affiliation for the most part.

Chino: No amount of frustration with the current administration can justify Weisberg&#039;s simple religious bigotry. If others, including non-evangelicals and liberals, are willing to look the other way on such prejudice then they are hypocrites who ought to think a little more about what they stand for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SJL: I am an attorney so the word &#8220;or&#8221; is always disjunctive and I mean &#8220;or&#8221; rather than &#8220;and&#8221; as you have read me. As a voter I would want to know if an elected official would follow his own guiding principles and philosophy rather than that of an unelected religious leader. Once he affirms that he will do so, however, I don&#8217;t get to second-guess that statement. No one listens to Mitt Romney &#8212; they foist off on to him what they insist he will do rather than what he says.</p>
<p>David H. &#8212; I actually think that we are in substantial agreement. A voter has a right to know if there is autonomy from a religion or particuar point of view. That is why we have party affiliation for the most part.</p>
<p>Chino: No amount of frustration with the current administration can justify Weisberg&#8217;s simple religious bigotry. If others, including non-evangelicals and liberals, are willing to look the other way on such prejudice then they are hypocrites who ought to think a little more about what they stand for.</p>
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		<title>By: Chino Blanco</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/12/thoughts-on-mormons-in-america/#comment-215795</link>
		<dc:creator>Chino Blanco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Dec 2006 20:37:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3644#comment-215795</guid>
		<description>The Weisberg piece should probably be read with the understanding that large parts of the country feel the current administration has done enormous damage to our nation\&#039;s credibility, international standing and long-term interests, and that much of the disastrously poor policy and planning we\&#039;re seeing -- the general sense of incompetence -- can only be remedied by a leadership capable of taking cold stock of reality and charting a pragmatic course, a leadership that is not beholden to \&#039;kooky\&#039; religionists.  As interesting as the banter between the evangelical Christian and LDS commenters here may be for the variously affiliated believers, it is the kind of discussion that would likely further persuade non-evangelicals and non-Mormons alike of the need to get some political leadership in place that is less concerned with what are, for most Americans, fairly arcane points of religious doctrine, and more consumed with, say, doing a better job at governing.  As an American, whether Romney\&#039;s candidacy is ultimately good or bad for the Mormon PR project would seem to be secondary to whether or not he\&#039;d be good for the country.  But, having apparently decided that he has a better shot at tying up the evangelical vote than working to appeal to a broader demographic, it seems likely he\&#039;ll end up doing not much good for either his country or his faith.  This time around, let the Christianists take a breather from politics for a few years to let others patch up our social contracts, infrastructure and the American brand.  Romney will have ample opportunity to re-package himself, later.  Until then, the damage has been done:  by apparently flip-flopping on matters of principle, it leads non-Mormons to suspect that his Mormonism may also very well be just a conveniently-held set of beliefs, and is all the justification the commentariat needs to unload on his professed religious convictions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Weisberg piece should probably be read with the understanding that large parts of the country feel the current administration has done enormous damage to our nation\&#8217;s credibility, international standing and long-term interests, and that much of the disastrously poor policy and planning we\&#8217;re seeing &#8212; the general sense of incompetence &#8212; can only be remedied by a leadership capable of taking cold stock of reality and charting a pragmatic course, a leadership that is not beholden to \&#8217;kooky\&#8217; religionists.  As interesting as the banter between the evangelical Christian and LDS commenters here may be for the variously affiliated believers, it is the kind of discussion that would likely further persuade non-evangelicals and non-Mormons alike of the need to get some political leadership in place that is less concerned with what are, for most Americans, fairly arcane points of religious doctrine, and more consumed with, say, doing a better job at governing.  As an American, whether Romney\&#8217;s candidacy is ultimately good or bad for the Mormon PR project would seem to be secondary to whether or not he\&#8217;d be good for the country.  But, having apparently decided that he has a better shot at tying up the evangelical vote than working to appeal to a broader demographic, it seems likely he\&#8217;ll end up doing not much good for either his country or his faith.  This time around, let the Christianists take a breather from politics for a few years to let others patch up our social contracts, infrastructure and the American brand.  Romney will have ample opportunity to re-package himself, later.  Until then, the damage has been done:  by apparently flip-flopping on matters of principle, it leads non-Mormons to suspect that his Mormonism may also very well be just a conveniently-held set of beliefs, and is all the justification the commentariat needs to unload on his professed religious convictions.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/12/thoughts-on-mormons-in-america/#comment-215790</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Dec 2006 01:28:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3644#comment-215790</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve only skimmed this thread so my comment is sure to be reduntant.

Why is it that *practice* means nothing in the political realm? If the Mormon faith induces its members to live chaste lives, to be honest, to be hard working, to care for the poor, etc., why all the backflips over theological differences?

Merry Christmas.

P.S. Perhaps it would be useful to settle our differences by comparing nativity sets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve only skimmed this thread so my comment is sure to be reduntant.</p>
<p>Why is it that *practice* means nothing in the political realm? If the Mormon faith induces its members to live chaste lives, to be honest, to be hard working, to care for the poor, etc., why all the backflips over theological differences?</p>
<p>Merry Christmas.</p>
<p>P.S. Perhaps it would be useful to settle our differences by comparing nativity sets.</p>
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		<title>By: SJL</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/12/thoughts-on-mormons-in-america/#comment-215781</link>
		<dc:creator>SJL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Dec 2006 21:11:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3644#comment-215781</guid>
		<description>Blake,
&quot;Are you suggesting that if a personâ€™s â€œprimary allegianceâ€ is to the Church or God rather than his constitutents that we ought to vote against such a person?&quot;

&quot;The Church&quot; and &quot;God&quot; should not be thrown together so easily. There is a difference, and we should be wary of any candidate who does not see the difference. I would have no problem with a candidate whose primary allegiance was to God, but if he thought his Church leadership always perfectly reflected the will of God, then I wouldn&#039;t trust him to run a ward, let alone a country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blake,<br />
&#8220;Are you suggesting that if a personâ€™s â€œprimary allegianceâ€ is to the Church or God rather than his constitutents that we ought to vote against such a person?&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;The Church&#8221; and &#8220;God&#8221; should not be thrown together so easily. There is a difference, and we should be wary of any candidate who does not see the difference. I would have no problem with a candidate whose primary allegiance was to God, but if he thought his Church leadership always perfectly reflected the will of God, then I wouldn&#8217;t trust him to run a ward, let alone a country.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark David Butler</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/12/thoughts-on-mormons-in-america/#comment-215777</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark David Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Dec 2006 06:54:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3644#comment-215777</guid>
		<description>It is quite true that there is &lt;i&gt;no&lt;/i&gt; hard scriptural evidence that Jesus Christ was ever married in mortality.  Nor (apparently) is there any scriptural evidence to the effect that the Holy Ghost was ever married.  But it is a pretty amazing feat to occupy the station of Eternal Father of heaven and of earth and all things that in them are without being married at one time or another.

Though certainly not doctrines of the Church, it is almost indisputable that the general tenor of LDS doctrine (as it was known in my generation at least) is that all three members of the godhead (pertaining unto us) will each be married eternally in due time (if they have not yet already been) and (together with &lt;i&gt;exactly one&lt;/i&gt; their chosen partners) have that ordinance sealed upon their heads for time and all eternity, in the pattern and model of the Abrahamic covenant of marriage.

I might add further that the scriptural evidence that there is polygyny (let alone polyandry) in the highest order of celestial glory is non-existent.  In fact, all of the evidence runs in exactly the opposite direction, i.e. that polygamy is a temporal expedient at best.  Jacob 2:27-31 is a classic example of a scripture which was written and preserved for our day. One might well also consider: 

D&amp;C 78:5-6, 
D&amp;C 104:7-8,14-18; 
D&amp;C 49:15-16; 
1 Tim 3:2,12; 
Jacob 3:5 et seq.;
D&amp;C 107:40 et seq.;
Gen 16:2 et seq;
D&amp;C 132:34 eq seq.

Is Hagar Abraham&#039;s wife? (Unless Sarah has fallen from her [place, birthright blessing, exaltation]) I dare say (not any more). On the contrary she occupies the position of a husband who marries a widow who has been previously sealed in the temple to a faithful husband - A legitimate (wife,husband) to be sure, but not the one according to the promise, unless (horrors) the chosen (husband,wife) falls from (her,his) place in the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and yields (his,her) birthright and covenant blessing to another more worthy than she, even as Esau.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is quite true that there is <i>no</i> hard scriptural evidence that Jesus Christ was ever married in mortality.  Nor (apparently) is there any scriptural evidence to the effect that the Holy Ghost was ever married.  But it is a pretty amazing feat to occupy the station of Eternal Father of heaven and of earth and all things that in them are without being married at one time or another.</p>
<p>Though certainly not doctrines of the Church, it is almost indisputable that the general tenor of LDS doctrine (as it was known in my generation at least) is that all three members of the godhead (pertaining unto us) will each be married eternally in due time (if they have not yet already been) and (together with <i>exactly one</i> their chosen partners) have that ordinance sealed upon their heads for time and all eternity, in the pattern and model of the Abrahamic covenant of marriage.</p>
<p>I might add further that the scriptural evidence that there is polygyny (let alone polyandry) in the highest order of celestial glory is non-existent.  In fact, all of the evidence runs in exactly the opposite direction, i.e. that polygamy is a temporal expedient at best.  Jacob 2:27-31 is a classic example of a scripture which was written and preserved for our day. One might well also consider: </p>
<p>D&amp;C 78:5-6,<br />
D&amp;C 104:7-8,14-18;<br />
D&amp;C 49:15-16;<br />
1 Tim 3:2,12;<br />
Jacob 3:5 et seq.;<br />
D&amp;C 107:40 et seq.;<br />
Gen 16:2 et seq;<br />
D&amp;C 132:34 eq seq.</p>
<p>Is Hagar Abraham&#8217;s wife? (Unless Sarah has fallen from her [place, birthright blessing, exaltation]) I dare say (not any more). On the contrary she occupies the position of a husband who marries a widow who has been previously sealed in the temple to a faithful husband &#8211; A legitimate (wife,husband) to be sure, but not the one according to the promise, unless (horrors) the chosen (husband,wife) falls from (her,his) place in the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and yields (his,her) birthright and covenant blessing to another more worthy than she, even as Esau.</p>
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		<title>By: Oliver</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/12/thoughts-on-mormons-in-america/#comment-215776</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Dec 2006 06:34:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3644#comment-215776</guid>
		<description>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/6203179.stm
Here&#039;s an article about Romney, but my favorite line from it is this: &quot;cocoa has been decreed &#039;not hot&#039;&quot;, now that&#039;s funny.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/6203179.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/6203179.stm</a><br />
Here&#8217;s an article about Romney, but my favorite line from it is this: &#8220;cocoa has been decreed &#8216;not hot&#8217;&#8221;, now that&#8217;s funny.</p>
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