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	<title>Comments on: Ned Desaules and the United Order &#8211; 1 of 2</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/11/ned-desaules-and-the-united-order-1-of-2/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Matt Evans</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/11/ned-desaules-and-the-united-order-1-of-2/#comment-214602</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 15:44:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ardis, don&#039;t mistake my argument against minimum wage (that prohibiting people from working for less than X dollars actually hurts the poor) to mean that I support class structure!   To appreciate my revulsion at our class system, read my comments on these two threads:  http://www.timesandseasons.org/archives/000205.html and http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2485.  You&#039;ll see that I&#039;m more antagonistic to our class system than the Democrats and self-professed modern liberals on the threads.   It&#039;s just that I don&#039;t believe minimum wage laws (or any civil laws, for that matter) can build Zion, and many of them are actually impediments to Zion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ardis, don&#8217;t mistake my argument against minimum wage (that prohibiting people from working for less than X dollars actually hurts the poor) to mean that I support class structure!   To appreciate my revulsion at our class system, read my comments on these two threads:  <a href="http://www.timesandseasons.org/archives/000205.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.timesandseasons.org/archives/000205.html</a> and <a href="http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2485" rel="nofollow">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2485</a>.  You&#8217;ll see that I&#8217;m more antagonistic to our class system than the Democrats and self-professed modern liberals on the threads.   It&#8217;s just that I don&#8217;t believe minimum wage laws (or any civil laws, for that matter) can build Zion, and many of them are actually impediments to Zion.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis Parshall</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/11/ned-desaules-and-the-united-order-1-of-2/#comment-214552</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:52:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3591#comment-214552</guid>
		<description>Wilfried, that&#039;s enough for me to be able to find her -- there will be enough clues, even if she is only given initials, to be able to track her down in contemporary records. Thanks!  (I&#039;m working on a major long-term project concerning the early French-speaking Swiss converts; I might as well gather up all the French speakers -- it&#039;s not like there were so many, and they don&#039;t seem to have many descendants.)

Matt Evans, every United Order community worked out the details in a unique way. We have a modern misconception of a standard United Order pattern, probably based on our general familiarity with Orderville, thinking that this-is-how-we-will-all-live-in-the-Millennium. Turning to the 19th century for models gives us a great many possibilities.. I&#039;ve looked at enough United Order communities (including Salt Lake City) to recognize differences, but not nearly enough to quantify any of them, including the bartering feature. You&#039;ll be delighted to know, though, that none of them had anything like a minimum wage. Maybe not so delighted to acknowledge that there was no over-class, either ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wilfried, that&#8217;s enough for me to be able to find her &#8212; there will be enough clues, even if she is only given initials, to be able to track her down in contemporary records. Thanks!  (I&#8217;m working on a major long-term project concerning the early French-speaking Swiss converts; I might as well gather up all the French speakers &#8212; it&#8217;s not like there were so many, and they don&#8217;t seem to have many descendants.)</p>
<p>Matt Evans, every United Order community worked out the details in a unique way. We have a modern misconception of a standard United Order pattern, probably based on our general familiarity with Orderville, thinking that this-is-how-we-will-all-live-in-the-Millennium. Turning to the 19th century for models gives us a great many possibilities.. I&#8217;ve looked at enough United Order communities (including Salt Lake City) to recognize differences, but not nearly enough to quantify any of them, including the bartering feature. You&#8217;ll be delighted to know, though, that none of them had anything like a minimum wage. Maybe not so delighted to acknowledge that there was no over-class, either &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Evans</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/11/ned-desaules-and-the-united-order-1-of-2/#comment-214549</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:04:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3591#comment-214549</guid>
		<description>This is great Ardis, Ned&#039;s a character.  It struck me odd that in their attempt at the United Order they still bartered with each other for favors.  Do you know how normal this was?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is great Ardis, Ned&#8217;s a character.  It struck me odd that in their attempt at the United Order they still bartered with each other for favors.  Do you know how normal this was?</p>
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		<title>By: Wilfried</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/11/ned-desaules-and-the-united-order-1-of-2/#comment-214548</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilfried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Nov 2006 10:50:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3591#comment-214548</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Wilfried, I donâ€™t recognize this sister â€” sheâ€™s someone I want to know about. If you think of anything more that would help identify her, please let me know, Iâ€™ll start poking around.&lt;/em&gt;

Ardis, in my &lt;em&gt;Anthologie francaise sur les Mormons&lt;/em&gt; (1974, copies at BYU HBLL) there is the account of a French traveler who met this lady in SLC. I remember it as an impressive piece - he mentions on the one hand her wealthy aristocratic past (she must have been known in higher circles as the French traveler knew her from reputation), on the other hand her humble  situation as a convert who emigrated to Utah, but sustained by the glowing testimony she gives. A moving account. He does not mention her name, only initials as was often done in that period. I have no copy of that anthology here in Belgium and it dates back to pre-e-files-times. 

Julie, it would be interesting to find out if that lady is indeed in the Ward Quilt book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Wilfried, I donâ€™t recognize this sister â€” sheâ€™s someone I want to know about. If you think of anything more that would help identify her, please let me know, Iâ€™ll start poking around.</em></p>
<p>Ardis, in my <em>Anthologie francaise sur les Mormons</em> (1974, copies at BYU HBLL) there is the account of a French traveler who met this lady in SLC. I remember it as an impressive piece &#8211; he mentions on the one hand her wealthy aristocratic past (she must have been known in higher circles as the French traveler knew her from reputation), on the other hand her humble  situation as a convert who emigrated to Utah, but sustained by the glowing testimony she gives. A moving account. He does not mention her name, only initials as was often done in that period. I have no copy of that anthology here in Belgium and it dates back to pre-e-files-times. </p>
<p>Julie, it would be interesting to find out if that lady is indeed in the Ward Quilt book.</p>
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		<title>By: Julie M. Smith</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/11/ned-desaules-and-the-united-order-1-of-2/#comment-214543</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie M. Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Nov 2006 02:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3591#comment-214543</guid>
		<description>Wonderful story, Ardis.  Wilfried, I can&#039;t remember the name, but I&#039;m pretty sure (?) that that woman was in that Ward Quilt book I reviewed a while back.  (And:  thanks for the postcards.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wonderful story, Ardis.  Wilfried, I can&#8217;t remember the name, but I&#8217;m pretty sure (?) that that woman was in that Ward Quilt book I reviewed a while back.  (And:  thanks for the postcards.)</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis Parshall</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/11/ned-desaules-and-the-united-order-1-of-2/#comment-214540</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Nov 2006 01:26:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3591#comment-214540</guid>
		<description>Wilfried, I don&#039;t recognize this sister -- she&#039;s someone I want to know about. If you think of anything more that would help identify her, please let me know, I&#039;ll start poking around.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wilfried, I don&#8217;t recognize this sister &#8212; she&#8217;s someone I want to know about. If you think of anything more that would help identify her, please let me know, I&#8217;ll start poking around.</p>
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		<title>By: Wilfried</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/11/ned-desaules-and-the-united-order-1-of-2/#comment-214535</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilfried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Nov 2006 21:56:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3591#comment-214535</guid>
		<description>Fascinating! It seems the French and Swiss French contributed some colorful single figures to the 1860s-1890s in Utah, including also Louis Bertrand (twice mission president in France, also remained a bachelor in Utah, gardener, florist, responsible for BY&#039;s silk industry experiment, but ended also in loneliness and somewhat bitterness). I remember from my readings the story of a French aristocratic lady, Mormon convert, former friend of the Russian Tsar family, who ended up in SLC in the 1880s, where she was interviewed by a French traveler who published in France the account of his visit with her. Don&#039;t have my sources here, but she would be an interesting figure to study, Ardis. Does it ring a bell?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascinating! It seems the French and Swiss French contributed some colorful single figures to the 1860s-1890s in Utah, including also Louis Bertrand (twice mission president in France, also remained a bachelor in Utah, gardener, florist, responsible for BY&#8217;s silk industry experiment, but ended also in loneliness and somewhat bitterness). I remember from my readings the story of a French aristocratic lady, Mormon convert, former friend of the Russian Tsar family, who ended up in SLC in the 1880s, where she was interviewed by a French traveler who published in France the account of his visit with her. Don&#8217;t have my sources here, but she would be an interesting figure to study, Ardis. Does it ring a bell?</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis Parshall</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/11/ned-desaules-and-the-united-order-1-of-2/#comment-214526</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Nov 2006 20:24:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3591#comment-214526</guid>
		<description>Thanks, cantinflas. Ned is one of my all-time favorites in Utah and church studies.

Tatiana -- Yes, he wrote in English 99% of the time, slipping into French with just a few phrases here and there. Since writing this account (yeah, you&#039;re getting some recycled papers!), a whole cache of Ned&#039;s letters in French have turned up, in what I have to think of as out-of-the-ordinary circumstances. I&#039;ll write about that in a follow-up post a little later. One of my Relief Society accounts to be posted eventually is about Ned&#039;s aunt Julie and is, I suppose, as much about Ned as it is about Julie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, cantinflas. Ned is one of my all-time favorites in Utah and church studies.</p>
<p>Tatiana &#8212; Yes, he wrote in English 99% of the time, slipping into French with just a few phrases here and there. Since writing this account (yeah, you&#8217;re getting some recycled papers!), a whole cache of Ned&#8217;s letters in French have turned up, in what I have to think of as out-of-the-ordinary circumstances. I&#8217;ll write about that in a follow-up post a little later. One of my Relief Society accounts to be posted eventually is about Ned&#8217;s aunt Julie and is, I suppose, as much about Ned as it is about Julie.</p>
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		<title>By: Tatiana</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/11/ned-desaules-and-the-united-order-1-of-2/#comment-214521</link>
		<dc:creator>Tatiana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Nov 2006 19:17:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3591#comment-214521</guid>
		<description>This is so fascinating!  I really like the guy, even though he seems grumpy with the grown ups.  I bet he got along with kids far better, and they loved him.  Did he write his journals in English?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is so fascinating!  I really like the guy, even though he seems grumpy with the grown ups.  I bet he got along with kids far better, and they loved him.  Did he write his journals in English?</p>
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		<title>By: cantinflas</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/11/ned-desaules-and-the-united-order-1-of-2/#comment-214518</link>
		<dc:creator>cantinflas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:16:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3591#comment-214518</guid>
		<description>This is very interesting.  Look forward to part 2.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is very interesting.  Look forward to part 2.</p>
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