Comments on: Fixing the Minimum Wage http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/11/fixing-the-minimum-wage/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 12 Feb 2012 07:23:29 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: DMP http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/11/fixing-the-minimum-wage/#comment-214476 DMP Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:41:57 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3562#comment-214476 The black ("African-American") economist and syndicated columnist, Thomas Sowell, years ago showed how minimum wage laws contributed greatly to the demise of blacks in the U.S. economically and culturally. In fact, he argued that minimum wage laws were a major contributor to black youth unemployment (which since the 1950's, when minimum wage laws were introduced), which contributed greatly to both black male youth incarceration, and black female youth pregnancy rates—both of which have done much to contribute to single female led black families. I have read many of the above scenarios for how minimum wage can affect small businesses. My own 'small business' story (true, not just hypothetical) is this. In 1986, while I still operated my business out of my home (did that for six years), I paid a man who at that time has retired from working for a Fortune 500 company in San Diego, California, had sold his home, and paid for one entirely in Roy, Utah. He worked for me in a clerical positon for 6 months. During that time, I paid him the minimum wage at that time ($3.60 or so, if I remember correctly). During that same six-month period, he made more money from the minimum wage I paid him (and not counting any other income he had), than I made then (I was supporting a wife, and 3 children at that time). Who will guarantee my minimum wage? Another aspect to remember is this. We live very much in a global economy. What a person is paid here even for "minimum wage" per hour is as much OR MORE than many make in place like China, India and elsewhere IN A DAY! As we try to remain competitive in the world market, raising "minimum wages" here makes us far less competitive in the worldwide economy. To underline this, let me give an example. One product which we sold to an institutional client a few months ago (and which we sold them also two years ago) cost us less (not including shipping costs) for all components and assembly than for just a couple of componets purchased by themselves in the U.S. They use the EXACT SAME COMPONENTS, but buy them in the orient for far less than they are sold (or can be made, I suppose) in the U.S. My client wanted less than 2500 of these, but my supplier's minimum to me was 5000. However, with shipping costs more than half the item costs, I can buy them from China, pay shipping and import duties, sell them here, and make MUCH more, than if I bought only 2500 qty of them in the U.S. We need not consider only grinding the face of our fellow Americans, but we must consider what we do to our brothers and sisters worldwide. Jesus gave a parable of workers not starting to work in a vineyard until the 11th hour, and paying them the same total amount of money he paid those who "bore the heat of the day" (i.e., worked a full 12 hour shift). He said, in essence, "Can't I do with my (money) what I will?" Government should not dictate what I contract with my employees to do. And, as pointed out above, sometimes, whether paying employees minimum wage or not, employers often enough make less, sometimes far less, than even one of their employees may make! I am still in business after 26 years of opening the doors of my business. But government mandating to me what I must pay for one of the components of my business sounds hunky dory to most people. But, it does not mandate how much I can get customers to pay, nor how many customers I can get to buy from me. As a matter of liberty, I should be able to do with my own (money) as I choose (and can)! While mandating "minimum wage", let us incorporate other 'Satanic' measures that force people to do what supposedly they should. Wasn't that his plan? To make people do what they should? What is different about this? The black (“African-American”) economist and syndicated columnist, Thomas Sowell, years ago showed how minimum wage laws contributed greatly to the demise of blacks in the U.S. economically and culturally. In fact, he argued that minimum wage laws were a major contributor to black youth unemployment (which since the 1950′s, when minimum wage laws were introduced), which contributed greatly to both black male youth incarceration, and black female youth pregnancy rates—both of which have done much to contribute to single female led black families.

I have read many of the above scenarios for how minimum wage can affect small businesses.

My own ‘small business’ story (true, not just hypothetical) is this. In 1986, while I still operated my business out of my home (did that for six years), I paid a man who at that time has retired from working for a Fortune 500 company in San Diego, California, had sold his home, and paid for one entirely in Roy, Utah. He worked for me in a clerical positon for 6 months. During that time, I paid him the minimum wage at that time ($3.60 or so, if I remember correctly). During that same six-month period, he made more money from the minimum wage I paid him (and not counting any other income he had), than I made then (I was supporting a wife, and 3 children at that time). Who will guarantee my minimum wage?

Another aspect to remember is this. We live very much in a global economy. What a person is paid here even for “minimum wage” per hour is as much OR MORE than many make in place like China, India and elsewhere IN A DAY!

As we try to remain competitive in the world market, raising “minimum wages” here makes us far less competitive in the worldwide economy.

To underline this, let me give an example.

One product which we sold to an institutional client a few months ago (and which we sold them also two years ago) cost us less (not including shipping costs) for all components and assembly than for just a couple of componets purchased by themselves in the U.S. They use the EXACT SAME COMPONENTS, but buy them in the orient for far less than they are sold (or can be made, I suppose) in the U.S. My client wanted less than 2500 of these, but my supplier’s minimum to me was 5000. However, with shipping costs more than half the item costs, I can buy them from China, pay shipping and import duties, sell them here, and make MUCH more, than if I bought only 2500 qty of them in the U.S.

We need not consider only grinding the face of our fellow Americans, but we must consider what we do to our brothers and sisters worldwide.

Jesus gave a parable of workers not starting to work in a vineyard until the 11th hour, and paying them the same total amount of money he paid those who “bore the heat of the day” (i.e., worked a full 12 hour shift). He said, in essence, “Can’t I do with my (money) what I will?”

Government should not dictate what I contract with my employees to do. And, as pointed out above, sometimes, whether paying employees minimum wage or not, employers often enough make less, sometimes far less, than even one of their employees may make!

I am still in business after 26 years of opening the doors of my business. But government mandating to me what I must pay for one of the components of my business sounds hunky dory to most people. But, it does not mandate how much I can get customers to pay, nor how many customers I can get to buy from me.

As a matter of liberty, I should be able to do with my own (money) as I choose (and can)!

While mandating “minimum wage”, let us incorporate other ‘Satanic’ measures that force people to do what supposedly they should. Wasn’t that his plan? To make people do what they should? What is different about this?

]]> By: bbell http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/11/fixing-the-minimum-wage/#comment-214474 bbell Wed, 22 Nov 2006 16:41:46 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3562#comment-214474 Maren, I also would like a better solution as well. Severely disabled people are difficult cases. Best case for them are willing and capable family members. Tragedies occur as parents age and pass on. "But a big problem with people not working is because of the fear of losing medicaid. The government SSI checks are not enough to live on. Many people with disabilities stay on government assistance because of the fear of losing health care. Once you make a certain amount, you no longer qualify for medicaid." This is true to my Exp working in Church welfare. I have seen disabled people who have worked their whole lives and are willing to work be seemingly forced to work part time or not at all out of fear of losing Medicaid as their conditions worsen over time and serious medical care is required more and more. Its one of the weak links in our system of welfare. Maren,

I also would like a better solution as well. Severely disabled people are difficult cases. Best case for them are willing and capable family members. Tragedies occur as parents age and pass on.

“But a big problem with people not working is because of the fear of losing medicaid. The government SSI checks are not enough to live on. Many people with disabilities stay on government assistance because of the fear of losing health care. Once you make a certain amount, you no longer qualify for medicaid.”

This is true to my Exp working in Church welfare. I have seen disabled people who have worked their whole lives and are willing to work be seemingly forced to work part time or not at all out of fear of losing Medicaid as their conditions worsen over time and serious medical care is required more and more. Its one of the weak links in our system of welfare.

]]> By: Maren http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/11/fixing-the-minimum-wage/#comment-214472 Maren Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:32:03 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3562#comment-214472 The problem is, some people do not receive the generosity of others. And some people with severe disabilities can and do work, as I pointed out. It may not be as skilled as you and I, but it is work, and they should be paid accordingly. My question is how they can live on what they earn? Or are you saying it is better for them not to work and live on the "generosity" (ie taxes) of others. I personally think it is better for everyone to work, no matter if their job is meager. But because they have meager jobs with meager pay, it becomes easier for them to live off the system, so most loose the motivation to work. Is that what we want? To waste productive members of society just because they cannot gain the skills we can gain? If they could get a living wage, they would not have to waite for the generosity of others, and would be putting money back into the economy, rather than taking the tax payers money. Again, I am not an economist, so if someone has a better solution I would love to hear it. The problem is, some people do not receive the generosity of others. And some people with severe disabilities can and do work, as I pointed out. It may not be as skilled as you and I, but it is work, and they should be paid accordingly. My question is how they can live on what they earn? Or are you saying it is better for them not to work and live on the “generosity” (ie taxes) of others. I personally think it is better for everyone to work, no matter if their job is meager. But because they have meager jobs with meager pay, it becomes easier for them to live off the system, so most loose the motivation to work. Is that what we want? To waste productive members of society just because they cannot gain the skills we can gain? If they could get a living wage, they would not have to waite for the generosity of others, and would be putting money back into the economy, rather than taking the tax payers money. Again, I am not an economist, so if someone has a better solution I would love to hear it.

]]> By: Matt Evans http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/11/fixing-the-minimum-wage/#comment-214447 Matt Evans Tue, 21 Nov 2006 21:19:41 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3562#comment-214447 Frank, I didn't understand your response to Scott, and I'm guessing it's because you were being sarcastic in parts and I can't tell which. (Unless there really are people who think minimum wage is efficient because it causes unemployment. Ah ha, they say, but by ensuring 10% of people are out of work the 90% will work so much harder to keep their job!) Maren, Thank you for your comment. There are many people who are unable to "earn their keep" -- they can't make enough money for a company to justify a wage. Some people with severe disabilities are among them, as are almost all children. People who can't make it on their own must rely on the generosity of others. Laws can't change that. Frank,

I didn’t understand your response to Scott, and I’m guessing it’s because you were being sarcastic in parts and I can’t tell which. (Unless there really are people who think minimum wage is efficient because it causes unemployment. Ah ha, they say, but by ensuring 10% of people are out of work the 90% will work so much harder to keep their job!)

Maren,

Thank you for your comment. There are many people who are unable to “earn their keep” — they can’t make enough money for a company to justify a wage. Some people with severe disabilities are among them, as are almost all children. People who can’t make it on their own must rely on the generosity of others. Laws can’t change that.

]]> By: Maren http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/11/fixing-the-minimum-wage/#comment-214435 Maren Tue, 21 Nov 2006 16:02:51 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3562#comment-214435 I know nothing about economics, first of all. So I imagine there are a million objections to what I am about to say. So let me first say that if any of you who understand things better than I do can come up with a solution to the situations I will propose, I would love to hear them. My job is to help people with disabilities find employment. Now, sometimes a person just needs a better wheelchair, some therapy, etc, and they are great. Able to go out in the market and find competative employment. However, most of the time the scenarios are much more like this: (These are hypothetical, not based on real people, but are similar to actual cases) Person A is a 27 year old male with Down's Syndrome. His parents are old and pretty ill, and there is no one else in his family to take care of him. He comes to see me, and we find him a job stocking shelves at a store for maybe just over the $5.15 mark. He works very hard to learn the bus route to work, and to learn the details of the job. Perhaps, because of his limitations, he works harder than we all realize. He may be "unskilled", but he works so hard. He does not spend any lazy hours at work. He does not waste time on the computer, or gossiping with co-workers, etc. He works. 100% productivity. Much more than most of us can say. But his work is not worth more than say 5.50 because he is "unskilled". His parents want him to be more independent, so that they can know he is taken care of if something happens to him. He tries to find an apartment. It needs to be in a somewhat safe neighborhood. He cannot afford a safe neighborhood. What about a group home, most people say? Great, except the waiting list is about 10 years. What happens in most of these cases? Lucky people get into group homes or other arrangements. Others get sent to nursing homes after mom and dad die, and no one at the nursing home is prepared to support person A in his job, so he no longer works. Becomes a person living completely off the government, and in an environment not meant for a healthy 27 year old capable of a productive life. Why is his hard work only worth 5.50? Just because he is unskilled? Who decides unskilled anyway? I hear you all saying that 7 dollars an hour would hurt him, because everything else would go up, so you tell me how to help him. Person B slightly off topic, but also a bother to me. Person B is a 30 year old female with Muscular Dystrophy who has a Masters Degree. Highly skilled. Could have a job and has been offered many jobs. However, all insurance companies she has talked to say they cannot cover her because of her pre-exsisting medical conditions. We have, luckily, just found a way around this. But a big problem with people not working is because of the fear of losing medicaid. The government SSI checks are not enough to live on. Many people with disabilities stay on government assistance because of the fear of losing health care. Once you make a certain amount, you no longer qualify for medicaid. It is not a lot of money. Certainly not a living wage. And most jobs offered to the people I work with do not have insurance. And this is a bigger problem then you think. I have over 150 clients. There are 20 people in my office who each have about the same number. There are over 50 offices in the state of Utah. Please, tell me, if there is no wage hike, what I can do to help these people live. We do provide skills training for those who would benefit, but realisticly that is not everyone. What should they do? I know nothing about economics, first of all. So I imagine there are a million objections to what I am about to say. So let me first say that if any of you who understand things better than I do can come up with a solution to the situations I will propose, I would love to hear them.
My job is to help people with disabilities find employment. Now, sometimes a person just needs a better wheelchair, some therapy, etc, and they are great. Able to go out in the market and find competative employment. However, most of the time the scenarios are much more like this: (These are hypothetical, not based on real people, but are similar to actual cases)
Person A is a 27 year old male with Down’s Syndrome. His parents are old and pretty ill, and there is no one else in his family to take care of him. He comes to see me, and we find him a job stocking shelves at a store for maybe just over the $5.15 mark. He works very hard to learn the bus route to work, and to learn the details of the job. Perhaps, because of his limitations, he works harder than we all realize. He may be “unskilled”, but he works so hard. He does not spend any lazy hours at work. He does not waste time on the computer, or gossiping with co-workers, etc. He works. 100% productivity. Much more than most of us can say. But his work is not worth more than say 5.50 because he is “unskilled”. His parents want him to be more independent, so that they can know he is taken care of if something happens to him. He tries to find an apartment. It needs to be in a somewhat safe neighborhood. He cannot afford a safe neighborhood. What about a group home, most people say? Great, except the waiting list is about 10 years. What happens in most of these cases? Lucky people get into group homes or other arrangements. Others get sent to nursing homes after mom and dad die, and no one at the nursing home is prepared to support person A in his job, so he no longer works. Becomes a person living completely off the government, and in an environment not meant for a healthy 27 year old capable of a productive life. Why is his hard work only worth 5.50? Just because he is unskilled? Who decides unskilled anyway? I hear you all saying that 7 dollars an hour would hurt him, because everything else would go up, so you tell me how to help him.
Person B slightly off topic, but also a bother to me. Person B is a 30 year old female with Muscular Dystrophy who has a Masters Degree. Highly skilled. Could have a job and has been offered many jobs. However, all insurance companies she has talked to say they cannot cover her because of her pre-exsisting medical conditions. We have, luckily, just found a way around this. But a big problem with people not working is because of the fear of losing medicaid. The government SSI checks are not enough to live on. Many people with disabilities stay on government assistance because of the fear of losing health care. Once you make a certain amount, you no longer qualify for medicaid. It is not a lot of money. Certainly not a living wage. And most jobs offered to the people I work with do not have insurance. And this is a bigger problem then you think. I have over 150 clients. There are 20 people in my office who each have about the same number. There are over 50 offices in the state of Utah. Please, tell me, if there is no wage hike, what I can do to help these people live. We do provide skills training for those who would benefit, but realisticly that is not everyone. What should they do?

]]> By: Herodotus http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/11/fixing-the-minimum-wage/#comment-214426 Herodotus Tue, 21 Nov 2006 06:31:28 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3562#comment-214426 Um, as a random member of your readership if I were to "call spades spades" based on this thread I would have some unpleasant things to say about Adam. May I ask if this represents a shift in the comments policy with personal attacks now trumping discussion? Or is such behavior reserved for absentee moderators? Um, as a random member of your readership if I were to “call spades spades” based on this thread I would have some unpleasant things to say about Adam.

May I ask if this represents a shift in the comments policy with personal attacks now trumping discussion? Or is such behavior reserved for absentee moderators?

]]> By: Adam Greenwood http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/11/fixing-the-minimum-wage/#comment-214424 Adam Greenwood Tue, 21 Nov 2006 04:05:27 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3562#comment-214424 "Adam: “Emotional hysteria‿? If you mean “woman,‿ say so" I call spades spades. The fault is not in the stars, or in your sex, but you. “Adam: “Emotional hysteria‿? If you mean “woman,‿ say so”

I call spades spades. The fault is not in the stars, or in your sex, but you.

]]> By: Frank McIntyre http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/11/fixing-the-minimum-wage/#comment-214413 Frank McIntyre Mon, 20 Nov 2006 19:47:08 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3562#comment-214413 Hey Scott-- good to see you are still alive! The typical story for employee theft is that one can reduce it by raising the penalty for being fired-- and a minimum wage that creates unemployment would certainly do that. This is one of the stories people give for how a minimum wage can be efficiency enhancing. Whether it outweighs the losses from having unemployment is an open question. Hey Scott– good to see you are still alive!

The typical story for employee theft is that one can reduce it by raising the penalty for being fired– and a minimum wage that creates unemployment would certainly do that. This is one of the stories people give for how a minimum wage can be efficiency enhancing. Whether it outweighs the losses from having unemployment is an open question.

]]> By: Scott Butler http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/11/fixing-the-minimum-wage/#comment-214405 Scott Butler Mon, 20 Nov 2006 07:40:20 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3562#comment-214405 Frank, I am curious if there has been any research on how min wage affects fraud and efficiency problems in businesses that tend to use min wage labor. Considering the specific problem of theft and fraud in the restaurant industry, my common sense \"gut\" reaction is that there would, for a certain time, be less motivation for workers to steal. I would think though that access to unbiased data would be impossible to get. No \"big business\" would be at all disposed to give information that would reflect positively on a minimum wage increase. However, on the other side of it, its still the basement level of income, and if someone has tens of thousands of dollars of debt, a buck fifty raise isnt going to do much to change that motivation. Sorry to troll this subject up again, since its been inactive for a week. More just saying hi than anything else =D Scott Frank,
I am curious if there has been any research on how min wage affects fraud and efficiency problems in businesses that tend to use min wage labor.

Considering the specific problem of theft and fraud in the restaurant industry, my common sense \”gut\” reaction is that there would, for a certain time, be less motivation for workers to steal. I would think though that access to unbiased data would be impossible to get. No \”big business\” would be at all disposed to give information that would reflect positively on a minimum wage increase. However, on the other side of it, its still the basement level of income, and if someone has tens of thousands of dollars of debt, a buck fifty raise isnt going to do much to change that motivation.

Sorry to troll this subject up again, since its been inactive for a week. More just saying hi than anything else =D

Scott

]]> By: Matt Evans http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/11/fixing-the-minimum-wage/#comment-214133 Matt Evans Sun, 12 Nov 2006 14:04:17 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3562#comment-214133 "Any publicly owned company should simply be required to have no more than a 20:1 divide between the highest compensation package and the lowest." Well at least we could expect one benefit from this disastrous idea: the current Hollywood actors would all retire. "The average CEO pay for 2005 was $13,510,000. That means that even if the ratio was 100:1, the cheapest worker would still be making six figures at $135,100." Jeff, I don't want to be too hard on you since this may be your first comment (ribbing rights at T&S are <i>earned</i>!), but I plead with you, for the sake of humanity, to stop learning economics from Russell. (Who by diligent work earns his ribbing!) : ) “Any publicly owned company should simply be required to have no more than a 20:1 divide between the highest compensation package and the lowest.”

Well at least we could expect one benefit from this disastrous idea: the current Hollywood actors would all retire.

“The average CEO pay for 2005 was $13,510,000. That means that even if the ratio was 100:1, the cheapest worker would still be making six figures at $135,100.”

Jeff, I don’t want to be too hard on you since this may be your first comment (ribbing rights at T&S are earned!), but I plead with you, for the sake of humanity, to stop learning economics from Russell. (Who by diligent work earns his ribbing!) : )

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