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	<title>Comments on: The Law and Economics of Zion</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/09/the-law-and-economics-of-zion/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Evaine</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/09/the-law-and-economics-of-zion/#comment-258585</link>
		<dc:creator>Evaine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:37:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Good post. You make some great points that most people do not fully understand.

\&quot;It turns out that law-and-economics is not only the dominant theory of private law, but it also helps you think about the idea of Zion. If you look at the pattern of early Mormon settlement in Utah, you see a fairly common pattern repeated. The first settlers in the Salt Lake Valley created a single, large communal field. Everyone worked the field and everyone was entitled to produce from the field. Later, the field, which continued to be fenced as a single mass, was subdivided into lots apportioned to individuals. Finally, the concept of the â€œBig Fieldâ€ was abandoned in favor of individually owned lots that were dispersed.\&quot;

I like how you explained that. Very helpful. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post. You make some great points that most people do not fully understand.</p>
<p>\&#8221;It turns out that law-and-economics is not only the dominant theory of private law, but it also helps you think about the idea of Zion. If you look at the pattern of early Mormon settlement in Utah, you see a fairly common pattern repeated. The first settlers in the Salt Lake Valley created a single, large communal field. Everyone worked the field and everyone was entitled to produce from the field. Later, the field, which continued to be fenced as a single mass, was subdivided into lots apportioned to individuals. Finally, the concept of the â€œBig Fieldâ€ was abandoned in favor of individually owned lots that were dispersed.\&#8221;</p>
<p>I like how you explained that. Very helpful. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/09/the-law-and-economics-of-zion/#comment-211340</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3427#comment-211340</guid>
		<description>Andrew: If you are looking for a discussion of Mormon land policy in Utah, check out Leonard Arrington, Great Basin Kingdom or Firmage &amp; Mangrum, Zion in the Courts.  For a discussion of communal property rights and risk sharing, check out the Ellickson article cited in the post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew: If you are looking for a discussion of Mormon land policy in Utah, check out Leonard Arrington, Great Basin Kingdom or Firmage &amp; Mangrum, Zion in the Courts.  For a discussion of communal property rights and risk sharing, check out the Ellickson article cited in the post.</p>
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		<title>By: andrew jensen</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/09/the-law-and-economics-of-zion/#comment-211338</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew jensen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Sep 2006 03:23:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3427#comment-211338</guid>
		<description>Very interesting discussion. where might I find  some history books or articles dealing with topic?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting discussion. where might I find  some history books or articles dealing with topic?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/09/the-law-and-economics-of-zion/#comment-210220</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Sep 2006 15:06:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3427#comment-210220</guid>
		<description>It is worth noting that later on, it was very common for LDS farmers to cooperatively work in turn all the different fields in a community, as well as engage in all sorts of other collaborative enterprises short of the more extreme experiments they engaged in parts of southern Utah.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is worth noting that later on, it was very common for LDS farmers to cooperatively work in turn all the different fields in a community, as well as engage in all sorts of other collaborative enterprises short of the more extreme experiments they engaged in parts of southern Utah.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/09/the-law-and-economics-of-zion/#comment-210202</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Sep 2006 03:04:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3427#comment-210202</guid>
		<description>DKL, I think you are defining communitarianism rather too narrowly.  If anything the modern world suffers from a lack of it - at least in its proper form (love, not coercion).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DKL, I think you are defining communitarianism rather too narrowly.  If anything the modern world suffers from a lack of it &#8211; at least in its proper form (love, not coercion).</p>
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		<title>By: DKL</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/09/the-law-and-economics-of-zion/#comment-210197</link>
		<dc:creator>DKL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Sep 2006 02:19:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3427#comment-210197</guid>
		<description>What I glean from this is that communitarianism is like child labor: It&#039;s often instrumental in getting an economy on its feet, but it is best to abandon it as soon as other options are available.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I glean from this is that communitarianism is like child labor: It&#8217;s often instrumental in getting an economy on its feet, but it is best to abandon it as soon as other options are available.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Johnson</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/09/the-law-and-economics-of-zion/#comment-210194</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Sep 2006 02:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3427#comment-210194</guid>
		<description>Mark makes a good point...even with common &quot;ownership&quot; there can still be individual stewardships (e.g. separate lots).

Here&#039;s another theory: initially the saints didn&#039;t really know how to do agriculture in the arid desert.  So it made sense to wait a little while before dividing up the land, in order to figure out how much each person would need, set up irrigation systems, etc.   Once the lots are divided up, it&#039;s pretty hard to un-divide them.  

I&#039;m not familiar with any research on the economics of land division and sub-division, despite the fact that this obviously has a strong and persistent effect on urban economies...does anybody know of anything interesting?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark makes a good point&#8230;even with common &#8220;ownership&#8221; there can still be individual stewardships (e.g. separate lots).</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s another theory: initially the saints didn&#8217;t really know how to do agriculture in the arid desert.  So it made sense to wait a little while before dividing up the land, in order to figure out how much each person would need, set up irrigation systems, etc.   Once the lots are divided up, it&#8217;s pretty hard to un-divide them.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not familiar with any research on the economics of land division and sub-division, despite the fact that this obviously has a strong and persistent effect on urban economies&#8230;does anybody know of anything interesting?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/09/the-law-and-economics-of-zion/#comment-210187</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 23:42:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3427#comment-210187</guid>
		<description>The Law of Consecration is more properly known as &lt;i&gt;the Law of Consecration and Stewardship&lt;/i&gt;, and stewardship implies something akin to private lots.  Now I do not mean an absolute claim to private property, but merely subdivided management and responsibility.  

I think the evidence is abundant that divided responsibility (i.e. stewardship, agency, or accountability) is spritually healthier in the long run compared to a state with no such division. And the best example of this principle by far is the divinely established order of the family, where God places responsibility for the temporal and spiritual salvation of children squarely into the hands (and on the heads) of the parents.

It may very well take a community to properly raise a child, but someone, somewhere has to have primary responsibility.  That is what stewardship is all about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Law of Consecration is more properly known as <i>the Law of Consecration and Stewardship</i>, and stewardship implies something akin to private lots.  Now I do not mean an absolute claim to private property, but merely subdivided management and responsibility.  </p>
<p>I think the evidence is abundant that divided responsibility (i.e. stewardship, agency, or accountability) is spritually healthier in the long run compared to a state with no such division. And the best example of this principle by far is the divinely established order of the family, where God places responsibility for the temporal and spiritual salvation of children squarely into the hands (and on the heads) of the parents.</p>
<p>It may very well take a community to properly raise a child, but someone, somewhere has to have primary responsibility.  That is what stewardship is all about.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert C.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/09/the-law-and-economics-of-zion/#comment-210182</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 22:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3427#comment-210182</guid>
		<description>I think an integrally-related concept is stewardship and principal-agent problems.  This seems to be more prevalent in the scriptural accounts and more closely related to the Bishop storehouse model and tithing, and suggest a possible different motivation for the split into different lots.  That is, we become stewards over what we&#039;re given and we are accountable agents to the bishop who represents God as the principal.  We are then blessed according to our stewardship.  However, if we are exposed to risk, the pooling of the stewardships in the Bishop&#039;s storehouse allow us to be effectively insured against risk.  

This is how I tend to view the current welfare program &lt;i&gt;in principle&lt;/i&gt;.  In practice, I think there are many problems, though it seems much better than any other welfare program b/c of the way that it deals with these agency costs on an individual basis (at the bishop and welfare-council level rather than at a more aggregate level; the important difference is that our fast-offerings are voluntarily consecrated in contrast to the more explicit United Order expectation of full consecration...).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think an integrally-related concept is stewardship and principal-agent problems.  This seems to be more prevalent in the scriptural accounts and more closely related to the Bishop storehouse model and tithing, and suggest a possible different motivation for the split into different lots.  That is, we become stewards over what we&#8217;re given and we are accountable agents to the bishop who represents God as the principal.  We are then blessed according to our stewardship.  However, if we are exposed to risk, the pooling of the stewardships in the Bishop&#8217;s storehouse allow us to be effectively insured against risk.  </p>
<p>This is how I tend to view the current welfare program <i>in principle</i>.  In practice, I think there are many problems, though it seems much better than any other welfare program b/c of the way that it deals with these agency costs on an individual basis (at the bishop and welfare-council level rather than at a more aggregate level; the important difference is that our fast-offerings are voluntarily consecrated in contrast to the more explicit United Order expectation of full consecration&#8230;).</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Richards</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/09/the-law-and-economics-of-zion/#comment-210175</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Richards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 21:47:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3427#comment-210175</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t really see how communal ownership of a &quot;Big Lot&quot; is less risky than individual ownership of smaller, contiguous lots.  If my crops are destroyed by hail or crickets, isn&#039;t it almost inevitable that each neighboring parcel will suffer the same fate?  Unless we&#039;re talking about &lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt; big lots, where hail might fall on part but not all of the lot.  Or maybe it had to do with crop diversity, such that insects or disease might impact Farmer A but not Farmer B.  My impression has been, though, that the Salt Lake pioneers of the first 2-3 years were not distributed over a large area, and that there wasn&#039;t any less crop diversity after the partition than there was before.  I&#039;m not a farmer, so maybe somebody can set me straight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t really see how communal ownership of a &#8220;Big Lot&#8221; is less risky than individual ownership of smaller, contiguous lots.  If my crops are destroyed by hail or crickets, isn&#8217;t it almost inevitable that each neighboring parcel will suffer the same fate?  Unless we&#8217;re talking about <i>really</i> big lots, where hail might fall on part but not all of the lot.  Or maybe it had to do with crop diversity, such that insects or disease might impact Farmer A but not Farmer B.  My impression has been, though, that the Salt Lake pioneers of the first 2-3 years were not distributed over a large area, and that there wasn&#8217;t any less crop diversity after the partition than there was before.  I&#8217;m not a farmer, so maybe somebody can set me straight.</p>
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