So lets see…the husband could have taken a day off work each week to do it. Or they could have sold the house and hired someone. The boys could stay home from school (we all know kids back then only played video games and had all sorts of time) and burn all the clothes (and themselves) as they learned how to do it. And most of all…we all know that we are only in pain when we iron, right? She never had a lick of difficulty doing anything else. In that time period, a woman’s identity was caring for her family. I can’t imagine the speaker telling this story if his mother had been offended in any way…it obviously touched her to the core. But then…I remember the first TVs, the first TV dinners, the first microwaves…and the ooohhhsss and ahhhsss when anyone we knew purchased one. This would not have been just a means to an end to get the ironing done…it would have carried great meaning to anyone around them because it was such a luxury.

I have seen this topic on more than one message board and the petty mean spirited attacks have been astonishing. Have we hit the age when an older person no longer can discuss his life and what was meaningful in it because some are so clueless that they can’t step out of their own confined feel good world for even an instant?

I have a completely different sense about what has been discussed in these last few comments. The prophets are giving us the guidance and direction that will enable us to hold to the rod as the mists continue to get more intense. They ARE warning us, they ARE teaching us, they ARE instructing us. The answer to ALL of the problems in the world is to move forth God’s work that they lead with more fervor, more dedication, and more trust in those who lead us. Elder Holland reminded us of that fact. We are living in the last days, about which prophets ancient and modern have spoken, warned and taught. As Dan said, the Book of Mormon has guidance for our day. In addition, our prophets are being led by God as to what to say to us so that His work can move forward.

Assuredly, He cares a great deal about all the evil in the world. But He also told us a long time ago these days — perilous times — would come. And what are we to do about these perilous times? Continue to follow and live the gospel!

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. [Paul then lists a bunch of evils of the last days and then counsels}
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All scripture [including what comes from living prophets] is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
(2 Tim. 3:1, 14-17)

While clearly our leaders ache for the evils and wrongs in the world (Pres. Hinckley said as much just this weekend), and do much administer relief and alleviate suffering, they also realize that temporal salvation for people — freedom from hunger, oppression, war, etc. — is only temporary, and not the ultimate purpose of the gospel nor of their role. Our leaders are also charged with keeping us on course spiritually so we don’t lose THAT war, and so the work can go forward as broadly as quickly as possible. They are charged with trying to keep Satan’s power at bay as much as possible, and that comes through living the gospel in righteousness. THAT is ultimately the answer to the world’s ills. Christ and His gospel are the answer to all the problems that perplex the world, and sometimes perplex us and weigh us down. This is what our prophets teach. Christ and His gospel.

Think of what the Millenium will be and WHY it will be that way. It won’t be primarily about temporal well-being. It will be a time of peace because of righteousness of the people and the reign of the Savior. THAT is what will bind Satan (“And because of the righteousness of his people, Satan has no power…for he hath no power over the hearts of the people, for they dwell in righteousness, and the Holy One of Israel reigneth.” 1 Ne. 22:26)) If we focus only on the symptoms of the devil’s reign over the earth right now, we will miss the boat. Our prophets can help us keep the Lord’s big picture in mind. Those children who suffer have their salvation. Not a hair is lost without God’s awareness. There is more to life than this life. We must remember the purpose of this life and Christ’s atonement. He will make all those things right!! The question is more about what each of us does to come to Him and help others to do the same.

Incidentally, I’m a little confused about the comment about things like the Proclamation and other prophetic teachings as being ordinary or common sense. If that is so, why is there such opposition to these common sense teachings? The irony is that for all the common sense we may here, we see the world, and sometimes even some in the Church, following a different path, following the world’s “common sense.” The only way I know to sort through all the loud voices is to look to and listen intently to and follow our prophets’ counsel. Their counsel is what can keep us tied to God. As we follow that counsel, we can find the God who is giving it. That has been my experience.

Equality, I pray you may be able to find God in spite of what you don’t see happening. I pray you can see what is happening in His work, and find Him therein.

I don’t mean to pile on, but I have to say I think I can see where you are coming from to some extent. Don’t think that I am acusing you of sexual misbehavior, but your words reminded me so much of the arguments I hear from people in that situation, and things I have thought as my testimony has wavered at times over the years. There have been times recently (especially during my recent time in Iraq) where I have really wished the Prophets would address the pressing issues of our day and give us some perspective on the insanity we are seeing around us all the time. I think their treatments of indebtedness, porn, racism, and abuse are all inspired (revealed), but as far as answers to the big perplexities of our time, I feel like I have had to seek those on my own. It has been difficult at times for me to hear priority given to people’s sexual behavior in Conference and other talks, while seeing images of children with limbs blown off by terrorist bombs across the world. It’s very hard for me to be bothered about my neighbors wanting a same-sex marriage when people are being tortured and killed in the name of religion and whole nations live in the worst kind of oppression and our environment is so polluted.
I guess all I can say is that as I have sought answers on my own, I have found a lot of them, and my mind has been quieted time and time again regarding the lack of guidance coming from the Prophets on these things. I read the Book of Mormon in Iraq, and I found more answers and helpful ways of thinking about the problems of our time than I had ever seen in the book before. I know it sounds cliche to say “read your scriptures and pray,” but that is how I’ve found peace of mind about the issue you seem to be articulating. I wish I could say more on that, but that’s all I’ve got…

I don’t expect that learning the content of GBH’s speech will asuage or even mitigate the very real concerns and questions you have–and i certainly don’t wish to belittle those concerns. For me, it wasn’t the words themselves that provided the witness. As I said, I was intrigued by them, but by no means overwhelmed. Presumably, if he used the fireside as an occasion to warn Church members not to go to work if the worked at the WTC, more eyebrows would’ve been raised. I personally very much doubt he knew what was coming. And I also doubt that such a direct and explicit warning would have convinced anyone that he is a prophet, seer, or revelator. But the totality of the experience–the subtle intrigue of the moment, the gravity of the subsequent events, the forcefulness with which my mind was driven to remembrance of his message, the meaning and significance they then assumed in hindsight, and the spiritual intensity of that moment–for me constituted a powerful confirmation, not that he could read and predict the future but that he was a chosen servant of God to lead his people. I really believe that. Sadly, judging by the enthusiams with which an appearantly overwhelming majority of Church members (at least here in Utah) quickly jumped on the Coulter/Hannity/Cheney bandwagon of fear-driven, fear-mongering, apocalyptic vengefulness of post 9/11 kill-all-evil-doers hysteria, my experience of the impact of President Hinckley’s words was less than typical.

My sincerest regards as you navigate the murky waters where faith and doubt run into each other.

I apologize if I have violated any of the T&S comment policies; if I did so, it was unintentional. I have great respect for most of the beliefs of members of the church (as an aside, I wonder whether the T&S comment policy you cite is not overly broad–some members of the church believe people with dark skin were less valiant in the pre-existence and have the “curse of Cain” on them; some members of the church believe that the Civil Rights movement was part of a Communist conspiracy. I assume it is OK for me to not respect these particular “members’ beliefs”). Incidentally, I am a member of the church, as is much of my family. Does this mean people who post here, in order to comply with the comments policy, should respect my beliefs? I am active in my ward, in which there are a number of people I consider friends. I have tried to express my doubts and critical questions respectfully and intelligently without hostility, vitriol, or venom. While I disagree with the opinions of some who post here and do not share the same enthusiasm for some of the teachings and practices of the church to which we belong, I do not consider disagreement to be equivalent to disrespect.

Brad,

Thanks for your thoughtful response to my post. I am familiar with the talk. The date it was given is significant and interesting. I see it as support for my position; you, I take it, see it as support for yours. Funny how two people can look at the same thing and come away with different conclusions. I guess if President Hinckley really is receiving revelation, my problem is not with him but with the God who is supposed to be talking to him.

Respectfully,

Equality.

In general I sympathize with your concern about the dearth of “fully-fledged” revelations presented to the Church from those whom we believe to be prophets, seers, and revelators. I myself have, in my more honest moments, wondered whether “revelator” is not something of a stretch. However, for me the notion of a person–say, Gordon B Hinckley–being an oracle or mouthpiece of God is much more subtle than a mere quantative assessment of “officially” revelatory pronouncements directed to the church during his tenure.

I attended a fireside with my wife several years back at which President Hinckley spoke. He was sharply dressed (a light grey suit with a jet black tie and matching pocket-kerchif). I remember being somewhat surprised at his remarks, not because he said anything earth-shattering in itself, but because he seemed to deviate from his admitedly typical “platitudes, cliches, and generalized regurgitations of conventional wisdom,” at least topically, if not stylistically. He warned his audience against the dangers of pessimism, of fearfulness, of cynicism. He decried the negative, prone-to-criticize, venomous nature of both syndicated columnists and letter-to-editor writers. He plead with us to “stop seeking out the storms and enjoy more fully the sunlight,” suggesting that we “turn from the negativism that so permeates our modern society and look for the remarkable good” and allow “optimism [to] replace pessimism, [and] our faith [to] exceed our fears.” He suggested that there would be trouble ahead, but that we should not despair, but “Look for the sunlight through the clouds.” ” I am not suggesting,” he reminded us, “that you simply put on rose-colored glasses to make the world about you look better. I ask, rather, that you look above and beyond the negative, the cynical, the critical, the doubtful, to the positive and the affirmative.” He relayed the story of the ruler of the synagogue who, while pleading for Jesus to heal his daughter, learned from his servant that she had already died. Jesus told him, “be not afraid, only believe.”

“I commend,” echoed President Hinckley, ” those tremendous words to you. Be not afraid, only believe.”

Now, I admit, there is nothing remarkable or obviously prophetic or revelatory in itself here. Indeed, at the time the words struck me as somewhat unexpected (I had never heard him speak with such emphasis on the subject of optimism and not letting fear drive us), but I didn’t really walk out a changed man. It wasn’t until a few days later that the significance of what he said really hit me.

You can read his remarks online, probably at the Church’s website. It was a CES fireside. The title of the address is “Be Not Afraid, Only Believe,” delivered at the Conference Center on September 9, 2001.

I understand your concern with Equality\’s comments not being strictly in line with the policies of T & S. His analysis makes a good point. We claim that our Prophet is the Prophet for the entire world, yet he has remained strangely silent regarding worldwide incidents that Equality mentions, such as the WTC, a war in the middle east, hurricanes flooding our cities, and tsunamis killing hundreds of thousands. Wouldn\’t it be nice if President Hinckley were to address these issues directly? Or better yet, wouldn\’t it be great if he were to predict some of them and issue warnings through the church hierarchy to individual stakes? The lack of this foresight is problematic to many of us.

I spoke with another active friend of mine the other day, and he admitted to me that he struggled for six months with his testimony because in the Prophet\’s interview with Larry King, when King asked \”Do you speak with God?\” his answer was \”Well I would hope so.\” My friend\’s testimony was almost shattered instantly because President Hinckley didn\’t boldly declare \”YES, I DO.\”

I think Equality makes many valid points in his comments that need to be addressed by the church leadership.

You’re welcome to participate here regardless of your personal beliefs on prophetic revelation, but your most recent comments go some distance beyond the pale of respect for believing LDS members. Please find a more respectful way to formulate your criticisms of individuals whom most participants in this forum revere. If you’re unable to do so, there are plenty of other forums available for your venting.

I don’t doubt that leaders of the church claim to receive revelation in administering the church. My statement about GBH not receiving a revelation in 11 years was really pointing to the lack of any declaration of received wisdom from God that is above and beyond what one could reasonably expect an intelligent and experienced person to produce on his own accord. In other words, I see no value in a “revelation” that, say, changes a temple recommend’s validity period from one year to two years. Or a “revelation” that adds another Quorum of the Seventy to the church bureaucracy. It seems that many members of the church, apparently including the leaders at the highest levels, do not really take seriously the idea that the Prophet is the spokesperson for God to the whole world. I think that if God is really speaking to the world through the leader of a tiny sect based in the Intermountain West, that He might have something to say about war, poverty, disease, starvation, social injustice, the dangers facing the world from global warming, and so forth. I think it not unreasonable to expect that someone sustained as a “seer” might actually “see” something the rest of us can’t and report on it.

Dan, you said:
“That statement sounds like the thinking of someone who really, really desires a reason to believe that our current prophets are not inspired, because logically, it would follow that the commandments and commitments they teach can be questioned and/or discarded.
In reality, I don’t find that to be too much of a leap, because I think I’ve been there intellectually and spiritually during a difficult period of my life.”

Hmm, interesting assumption. In other words: “Equality, you’re just looking for reasons not to believe the prophets so you can sin.” Second only in popularity to the insult levied by Elder Bednar at GC: that those who become disaffected do so because they are offended. It’s either a desire to sin or taking offense. How easy it is to dismiss any rational criticism if you can impugn the motives and integrity of those who question. In reality, there are many people in the world who claim to be “inspired,” who claim they speak for God. I think it reasonable to examine the evidence carefully when such claims are made. Examining President Hinckley’s record, I find nothing in his statements to indicate that he has any more wisdom than your average man of his age. I find not a single original thought. I see lots of platitudes, cliches, and generalized regurgitations of conventional wisdom. What has he ever said that you didn’t already know? What specifically has he done that is evidence of divine inspiration? The PEF? That’s a pretty simple program, really. Charities and universities have used endowments for many years. The Proclamation? Again, where is the original thought there? It looks like it was written by committee (which it probably was). Small temples? That took a revelation? Is that it? That’s all we’ve got? That’s my point exactly. We have people flying planes into skyscrapers, a war in the middle east, hurricanes flooding our cities, tsunamis killing hundreds of thousands, and what do we hear from President Hinckley? All about the many places and people he’s seen in his years as a General Authority. “Be good.” “Stand a little taller.” And sentimental stories told for the umpteenth time about the Willie and Martin handcart companies. Yes, I think there is something wrong with a church that claims to be led by the God of the Universe Himself but where the most exciting “revelation” one can envision coming from the Brethren has to do with cutting the Sunday meeting schedule from 3 hours to 2.

Dan, you don’t know me so you should probably not assume that I am looking for reasons not to believe because there are commandments I am just dying to break without guilt. I assure you that’s not the case. If I don’t believe, it’s because President Hinckley hasn’t given me much to believe in. Again, stated matter-of-factly and not bitterly, just in case anyone might wonder.

That said, I think the Proclamation, the PEF, small temples and other changes that have furthered the work are also examples of revelation that is alive and well.