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	<title>Comments on: Sunday School Lesson #32</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/08/sunday-school-lesson-32-2/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Robert C.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/08/sunday-school-lesson-32-2/#comment-209471</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Sep 2006 14:28:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3338#comment-209471</guid>
		<description>I found a very interesting article by William Morrown in the &lt;i&gt;Journal of Biblical Literature&lt;/i&gt; discussing 3 very different translations of Job 42:6 each of which the scholarly community has defended.  Morrow&#039;s claim is that there some tension with each of these translations and concludes that the author is deliberately ambiguous.  Even if you disagree with his conclusion, it&#039;s a fascinating read.  I posted a more detailed summary &lt;a href=&quot;http://feastupontheword.org/Job_42:6-10&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, although it&#039;s very rough (the JBL article is available through JSTOR which can be accessed on-campus at most universities...).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found a very interesting article by William Morrown in the <i>Journal of Biblical Literature</i> discussing 3 very different translations of Job 42:6 each of which the scholarly community has defended.  Morrow&#8217;s claim is that there some tension with each of these translations and concludes that the author is deliberately ambiguous.  Even if you disagree with his conclusion, it&#8217;s a fascinating read.  I posted a more detailed summary <a href="http://feastupontheword.org/Job_42:6-10" rel="nofollow">here</a>, although it&#8217;s very rough (the JBL article is available through JSTOR which can be accessed on-campus at most universities&#8230;).</p>
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		<title>By: Robert C.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/08/sunday-school-lesson-32-2/#comment-208438</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Aug 2006 17:03:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3338#comment-208438</guid>
		<description>Joe Spencer &lt;a href=&quot;http://feastupontheword.org/Job_42:6-10&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;has posted here&lt;/a&gt; an interesting take on Job that Gerald Janzen takes.  He takes an alternate translation of 42:6, that Job repents &lt;i&gt;of&lt;/i&gt; dust and ashes instead of &lt;i&gt;in&lt;/i&gt; dust and ashes, and argues that Job&#039;s transformation is one from false humility to a more clear understanding of his relationship with God (which is more than just dust and ashes).  

I&#039;d love to hear others thoughts on this idea, either here or at the Feast wiki&#8212;just add to the &lt;a href=&quot;http://feastupontheword.org/Talk:Job_42:6-10&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;discussion page&lt;/a&gt; if you don&#039;t want to bother with the site policies for commentary pages.  One reason I&#039;ve been MIA is we&#039;ve been having some engrossing discussions about &lt;a href=&quot;http://feastupontheword.org/Isa_6:6-10&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Isaiah 6&lt;/a&gt; and several other related topics&#8212;mainly thanks to Joe&#039;s efforts&#8212;so have a look if you haven&#039;t stopped by the wiki yet/recently....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe Spencer <a href="http://feastupontheword.org/Job_42:6-10" rel="nofollow">has posted here</a> an interesting take on Job that Gerald Janzen takes.  He takes an alternate translation of 42:6, that Job repents <i>of</i> dust and ashes instead of <i>in</i> dust and ashes, and argues that Job&#8217;s transformation is one from false humility to a more clear understanding of his relationship with God (which is more than just dust and ashes).  </p>
<p>I&#8217;d love to hear others thoughts on this idea, either here or at the Feast wiki&mdash;just add to the <a href="http://feastupontheword.org/Talk:Job_42:6-10" rel="nofollow">discussion page</a> if you don&#8217;t want to bother with the site policies for commentary pages.  One reason I&#8217;ve been MIA is we&#8217;ve been having some engrossing discussions about <a href="http://feastupontheword.org/Isa_6:6-10" rel="nofollow">Isaiah 6</a> and several other related topics&mdash;mainly thanks to Joe&#8217;s efforts&mdash;so have a look if you haven&#8217;t stopped by the wiki yet/recently&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim F.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/08/sunday-school-lesson-32-2/#comment-207910</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Aug 2006 03:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3338#comment-207910</guid>
		<description>Excellent material on Job at http://faithprorumor.weblogs.us/archives/242. (Thanks, Kaimi.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent material on Job at <a href="http://faithprorumor.weblogs.us/archives/242" rel="nofollow">http://faithprorumor.weblogs.us/archives/242</a>. (Thanks, Kaimi.)</p>
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		<title>By: Kaui Trainer</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/08/sunday-school-lesson-32-2/#comment-207858</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaui Trainer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:19:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3338#comment-207858</guid>
		<description>When we talk about matter, it can neither be created nor destroyed...but it can change shape and it can be used to become a whole myriad of different things. Like when atoms are ionized, they jump up to a different level of existence. It is that energy that allows them to become something far greater than what they were.
Suffering tends to do that as well. Through suffering, we can choose to allow a greater power to mold us and change us into something greater than we were before. We are just living by the laws of nature that Jehovah and God the Father obey. Perhaps we just are unaware of it. We often compare suffering to metal being purified with heat...all the dross gets melted out until the metal is pure. We must allow God to purify us through our suffering so that we become more pure. We cannot achieve it on our own. Suffering must turn us inward so that we seek our Father through His Son, Jesus Christ. I love the story of Job because through his suffering he continues to seek the Father and the Son! the powers that allow him to be purified...ionized???...energized??...changed into someone that is now greater than he was before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When we talk about matter, it can neither be created nor destroyed&#8230;but it can change shape and it can be used to become a whole myriad of different things. Like when atoms are ionized, they jump up to a different level of existence. It is that energy that allows them to become something far greater than what they were.<br />
Suffering tends to do that as well. Through suffering, we can choose to allow a greater power to mold us and change us into something greater than we were before. We are just living by the laws of nature that Jehovah and God the Father obey. Perhaps we just are unaware of it. We often compare suffering to metal being purified with heat&#8230;all the dross gets melted out until the metal is pure. We must allow God to purify us through our suffering so that we become more pure. We cannot achieve it on our own. Suffering must turn us inward so that we seek our Father through His Son, Jesus Christ. I love the story of Job because through his suffering he continues to seek the Father and the Son! the powers that allow him to be purified&#8230;ionized???&#8230;energized??&#8230;changed into someone that is now greater than he was before.</p>
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		<title>By: BrianJ</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/08/sunday-school-lesson-32-2/#comment-207462</link>
		<dc:creator>BrianJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 16:51:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3338#comment-207462</guid>
		<description>Jim F wrote: &lt;i&gt;&quot;So, though we assume that this is a book about [suffering], we should ask ourselves whether that is right. Isnâ€™t it perhaps more about how to suffer than why we suffer?&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Thanks for highlighting this point about Job&#039;s story. He is such a good example of the faithfulness aspect of faith that I felt cheated when I realized that I had been raised to think of Job only as a book about suffering.

A friend recently advised me to read the Book of Job, but omit the last chapter. Without that &quot;feel-good ending,&quot; I was forced to actually think about Job&#039;s experiences and what they teach.

If anyone wanted to explore the theme &lt;i&gt;&quot;Why is everything going wrong when I am doing everything right?&quot;&lt;/i&gt; then I would suggest reading the novel &quot;The Sparrow&quot; by Mary Doria Russell. She&#039;s an average storyteller, but I think she does a good job forcing the reader to drop the platitudes and actually confront this question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim F wrote: <i>&#8220;So, though we assume that this is a book about [suffering], we should ask ourselves whether that is right. Isnâ€™t it perhaps more about how to suffer than why we suffer?&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Thanks for highlighting this point about Job&#8217;s story. He is such a good example of the faithfulness aspect of faith that I felt cheated when I realized that I had been raised to think of Job only as a book about suffering.</p>
<p>A friend recently advised me to read the Book of Job, but omit the last chapter. Without that &#8220;feel-good ending,&#8221; I was forced to actually think about Job&#8217;s experiences and what they teach.</p>
<p>If anyone wanted to explore the theme <i>&#8220;Why is everything going wrong when I am doing everything right?&#8221;</i> then I would suggest reading the novel &#8220;The Sparrow&#8221; by Mary Doria Russell. She&#8217;s an average storyteller, but I think she does a good job forcing the reader to drop the platitudes and actually confront this question.</p>
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		<title>By: John Taber</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/08/sunday-school-lesson-32-2/#comment-207451</link>
		<dc:creator>John Taber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 15:03:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3338#comment-207451</guid>
		<description>Suffering is the consequence of an imperfect world.  God tries to use it to help us at times, and tries to help us mitigate it at times.  Satan tries to spread it around so we&#039;re all as miserable as he is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Suffering is the consequence of an imperfect world.  God tries to use it to help us at times, and tries to help us mitigate it at times.  Satan tries to spread it around so we&#8217;re all as miserable as he is.</p>
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		<title>By: Kaimi Wenger</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/08/sunday-school-lesson-32-2/#comment-207427</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaimi Wenger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Aug 2006 21:59:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3338#comment-207427</guid>
		<description>Jim,

Good Job!

(Sorry, it had to be said . . . )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim,</p>
<p>Good Job!</p>
<p>(Sorry, it had to be said . . . )</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/08/sunday-school-lesson-32-2/#comment-207424</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Aug 2006 20:41:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3338#comment-207424</guid>
		<description>I do not believe that God intends all sufferring, for that would make him the author of sin, but rather that he turns all suffering to our good, and to his name&#039;s glory.  Quite a trick, that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do not believe that God intends all sufferring, for that would make him the author of sin, but rather that he turns all suffering to our good, and to his name&#8217;s glory.  Quite a trick, that.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim F.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/08/sunday-school-lesson-32-2/#comment-207423</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Aug 2006 20:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3338#comment-207423</guid>
		<description>Russell, I don&#039;t actually know why I skipped Elihu&#039;s speech in my study questions. I didn&#039;t consciously decide to omit it. I read the book making notes as I went along and then made questions from my notes. For some reason, that process didn&#039;t result in any questions about those chapters. It probably means that I was sufficiently ignorant while reading them that I couldn&#039;t even come up with decent questions about them. 

I appreciate you bringing this to my attention. We could at least add what you say about those chapters--and the questions that raises--to the study notes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Russell, I don&#8217;t actually know why I skipped Elihu&#8217;s speech in my study questions. I didn&#8217;t consciously decide to omit it. I read the book making notes as I went along and then made questions from my notes. For some reason, that process didn&#8217;t result in any questions about those chapters. It probably means that I was sufficiently ignorant while reading them that I couldn&#8217;t even come up with decent questions about them. </p>
<p>I appreciate you bringing this to my attention. We could at least add what you say about those chapters&#8211;and the questions that raises&#8211;to the study notes.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell Arben Fox</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/08/sunday-school-lesson-32-2/#comment-207413</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell Arben Fox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Aug 2006 16:57:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3338#comment-207413</guid>
		<description>Jim,

Thanks very much for these thoughtful and provocative questions. There is no book in all the standard works, with the possible exceptions of Jacob in the BoM and perhaps some of the epistles of Paul, that combine beautiful writing and hard questions as Job does. Which makes it, unfortunately, as you note, a book that is prooftexted far more often than it is read. (Elder Bruce R. McConkie, in a speech he gave at BYU that &quot;ranked&quot; all the books of the Bible, said that &quot;Job is for people who like the book of Job.&quot;)

Of the many things I&#039;d like to say in response to or in addition to your comments, I think I will focus on Elihu. You skip his chapters entirely in your thought questions--why? Because the textual and literary evidence strongly suggests those chapters are an interpolation? But the same can be said for the prologue and the epilogue (though those additions are certainly older). Do you think Elihu doesn&#039;t fit in thematically or stylistically? If so, why? While I don&#039;t fully agree with Elihu&#039;s &quot;doctrine&quot; (not that anyone in the poem actually puts forward any coherent argument in that sense), I think it is important to take seriously his claim: that God is both sovereign and good, and that the only way to hold both of those views simultaneously is to believe that God intends all suffering for our benefit--and to believe that not answering our questions as to why we suffer is also for our benefit. It is, arguably, not all that different from the theodicy taught by Joseph Smith. Moreover, it is a position which is compatible with God&#039;s subsequent condemnation of Job and his friends in the final chapters for having presumed or demanded accounts for the cause of suffering, rather than faithfully defining it away as a problem (that is, as a theological problem; I don&#039;t read Elihu as proposing anything that would remove the need for sympathy and mourning) by positing the goodness of God&#039;s nature.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim,</p>
<p>Thanks very much for these thoughtful and provocative questions. There is no book in all the standard works, with the possible exceptions of Jacob in the BoM and perhaps some of the epistles of Paul, that combine beautiful writing and hard questions as Job does. Which makes it, unfortunately, as you note, a book that is prooftexted far more often than it is read. (Elder Bruce R. McConkie, in a speech he gave at BYU that &#8220;ranked&#8221; all the books of the Bible, said that &#8220;Job is for people who like the book of Job.&#8221;)</p>
<p>Of the many things I&#8217;d like to say in response to or in addition to your comments, I think I will focus on Elihu. You skip his chapters entirely in your thought questions&#8211;why? Because the textual and literary evidence strongly suggests those chapters are an interpolation? But the same can be said for the prologue and the epilogue (though those additions are certainly older). Do you think Elihu doesn&#8217;t fit in thematically or stylistically? If so, why? While I don&#8217;t fully agree with Elihu&#8217;s &#8220;doctrine&#8221; (not that anyone in the poem actually puts forward any coherent argument in that sense), I think it is important to take seriously his claim: that God is both sovereign and good, and that the only way to hold both of those views simultaneously is to believe that God intends all suffering for our benefit&#8211;and to believe that not answering our questions as to why we suffer is also for our benefit. It is, arguably, not all that different from the theodicy taught by Joseph Smith. Moreover, it is a position which is compatible with God&#8217;s subsequent condemnation of Job and his friends in the final chapters for having presumed or demanded accounts for the cause of suffering, rather than faithfully defining it away as a problem (that is, as a theological problem; I don&#8217;t read Elihu as proposing anything that would remove the need for sympathy and mourning) by positing the goodness of God&#8217;s nature.</p>
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