Comments on: Persecution and the Art of Mormon Writing http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/07/persecution-and-the-art-of-mormon-writing/ Truth Will Prevail Thu, 24 May 2012 16:54:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Christian Y. Cardall http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/07/persecution-and-the-art-of-mormon-writing/#comment-206750 Christian Y. Cardall Tue, 25 Jul 2006 21:51:03 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3262#comment-206750 <i>To illustrate: I recall that from Benjamin Franklin\’s autobiography his account of reading a faithful refutation of arguments for deism. He ended up being more persuaded by the arguments for deism than by the refutations.</i> This is, of course, the knife-edge upon which FARMS lives. To illustrate: I recall that from Benjamin Franklin\’s autobiography his account of reading a faithful refutation of arguments for deism. He ended up being more persuaded by the arguments for deism than by the refutations.

This is, of course, the knife-edge upon which FARMS lives.

]]> By: Bryan Benson http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/07/persecution-and-the-art-of-mormon-writing/#comment-206702 Bryan Benson Tue, 25 Jul 2006 07:59:12 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3262#comment-206702 Another way to look at Strauss\'s understanding of esotericism is to say simply that the authors to whom he ascribed its practice were interested in educating those of their readers who were looking for the education, as opposed to spelling things out for all to see. Plato, for example, states (in his Seventh Letter) that he would never openly state his understanding of \"nature\" (physis), since it would fill some with contempt--hence the danger of persecution--and others with a false notion of understanding (perhaps an esoteric statement in itself, though it\'s difficult to see how). Esotericism, especially as connected with Leo Strauss, seems to take on sinister connotations. When I was in graduate school, in a very Straussian environment, one of the little running jokes was that the statement, \"There is no God, sssssshhhhh\" was the sum of esotericism. But my experience in reading some of the authors to whom Strauss points is that they want me to work for what I get out of the text, since by so doing I will have come to understand something myself. In other words, esotericism is not, I think, simply concealing one\'s subversive opinion within a text, but rather embedding within the text a chain of reasoning that can be followed or not followed, depending on how interested the reader really is. After all, what genuine philosopher would be happy with someone who just agreed with his opinion about something? Since such philosophers rely on reason alone, it may be that their esotericism amounts to works of darkness, but only if reason by itself ultimately leaves us in the dark. At any rate, to return to my point, I would define genuine esotericism as a form of pedagogy. I believe any suspected esotericism in Mormon writing could be judged by this standard. In this regard, and on a lighter note, I suppose some works could be considered to have an esoteric teaching that do not actually intend one. To illustrate: I recall that from Benjamin Franklin\'s autobiography his account of reading a faithful refutation of arguments for deism. He ended up being more persuaded by the arguments for deism than by the refutations. Another way to look at Strauss\’s understanding of esotericism is to say simply that the authors to whom he ascribed its practice were interested in educating those of their readers who were looking for the education, as opposed to spelling things out for all to see. Plato, for example, states (in his Seventh Letter) that he would never openly state his understanding of \”nature\” (physis), since it would fill some with contempt–hence the danger of persecution–and others with a false notion of understanding (perhaps an esoteric statement in itself, though it\’s difficult to see how). Esotericism, especially as connected with Leo Strauss, seems to take on sinister connotations. When I was in graduate school, in a very Straussian environment, one of the little running jokes was that the statement, \”There is no God, sssssshhhhh\” was the sum of esotericism. But my experience in reading some of the authors to whom Strauss points is that they want me to work for what I get out of the text, since by so doing I will have come to understand something myself. In other words, esotericism is not, I think, simply concealing one\’s subversive opinion within a text, but rather embedding within the text a chain of reasoning that can be followed or not followed, depending on how interested the reader really is. After all, what genuine philosopher would be happy with someone who just agreed with his opinion about something? Since such philosophers rely on reason alone, it may be that their esotericism amounts to works of darkness, but only if reason by itself ultimately leaves us in the dark. At any rate, to return to my point, I would define genuine esotericism as a form of pedagogy. I believe any suspected esotericism in Mormon writing could be judged by this standard. In this regard, and on a lighter note, I suppose some works could be considered to have an esoteric teaching that do not actually intend one. To illustrate: I recall that from Benjamin Franklin\’s autobiography his account of reading a faithful refutation of arguments for deism. He ended up being more persuaded by the arguments for deism than by the refutations.

]]> By: Mark Butler http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/07/persecution-and-the-art-of-mormon-writing/#comment-206690 Mark Butler Mon, 24 Jul 2006 22:48:38 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3262#comment-206690 That is not to say that many historical authors were not inspired, but I find it hard to believe that what putatively were trying to conceal from most of the world is likely to be where that inspiration was most manifest. Esotericism only works in a scriptural / temple context because the spirit is there to testify of the true meaning when necessary. Without the Spirit, esotericism amounts to works of darkness. That is not to say that many historical authors were not inspired, but I find it hard to believe that what putatively were trying to conceal from most of the world is likely to be where that inspiration was most manifest. Esotericism only works in a scriptural / temple context because the spirit is there to testify of the true meaning when necessary. Without the Spirit, esotericism amounts to works of darkness.

]]> By: Mark Butler http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/07/persecution-and-the-art-of-mormon-writing/#comment-206689 Mark Butler Mon, 24 Jul 2006 22:42:29 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3262#comment-206689 Frankly, I think most of Nibley's writings are a world apart from the general Mormon tradition. Frankly, I think most of Nibley’s writings are a world apart from the general Mormon tradition.

]]> By: DKL http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/07/persecution-and-the-art-of-mormon-writing/#comment-206687 DKL Mon, 24 Jul 2006 22:18:14 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3262#comment-206687 If you read the Rorschach's biography, you'll find out that he was quite persecuted in his time for his beliefs. I wonder what great mysteries are hidden in his famous ink blots. If you read the Rorschach’s biography, you’ll find out that he was quite persecuted in his time for his beliefs. I wonder what great mysteries are hidden in his famous ink blots.

]]> By: Clark http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/07/persecution-and-the-art-of-mormon-writing/#comment-206676 Clark Mon, 24 Jul 2006 17:54:44 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3262#comment-206676 Esoterism is part and parcel of the Mormon mindset especially given the Masonic overtones. Once you throw in some of the apologetic writings, especially Nibley, then you have a near Straussian view of all historic writers. This has to be tempered and I think apologetics has largely weened itself from some of the excesses of the past. But I do think this affects how folks are want to write. Esoterism is part and parcel of the Mormon mindset especially given the Masonic overtones. Once you throw in some of the apologetic writings, especially Nibley, then you have a near Straussian view of all historic writers. This has to be tempered and I think apologetics has largely weened itself from some of the excesses of the past. But I do think this affects how folks are want to write.

]]> By: J. Stapley http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/07/persecution-and-the-art-of-mormon-writing/#comment-206674 J. Stapley Mon, 24 Jul 2006 17:51:05 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3262#comment-206674 Great post, Nate. I very much appreciate your mom's editorial insight. While I do think that that there is a significant amount of obfuscation that arises from incompetence or from the desire to obscure insufficiencies, there is a tremendous body of work that is could be considered through the Straussian lense. A great example is Truman Madsen's Joseph Smith tapes. I listened to them in when I was 14 and thought they were cool and then found them again last year and thought they were still cool; but, with a mind full of esoteric data, it was evident that he was delineating a ton of stuff that wouldn't be evident without that esoteric knowledge. Even in General Conference. There are certain topics that are only alluded to, and without certain knowledge the hidden meaning would be lost. This provides for plausible deniable and for a healthy distance from and respectful discussion of the private/sacred. I think Mormon scholars in general don't like to explicitly talk about the ramifications of the Temple, in all its sacral incarnations. They would rather use allusion or euphemism. Great post, Nate. I very much appreciate your mom’s editorial insight. While I do think that that there is a significant amount of obfuscation that arises from incompetence or from the desire to obscure insufficiencies, there is a tremendous body of work that is could be considered through the Straussian lense. A great example is Truman Madsen’s Joseph Smith tapes. I listened to them in when I was 14 and thought they were cool and then found them again last year and thought they were still cool; but, with a mind full of esoteric data, it was evident that he was delineating a ton of stuff that wouldn’t be evident without that esoteric knowledge.

Even in General Conference. There are certain topics that are only alluded to, and without certain knowledge the hidden meaning would be lost. This provides for plausible deniable and for a healthy distance from and respectful discussion of the private/sacred. I think Mormon scholars in general don’t like to explicitly talk about the ramifications of the Temple, in all its sacral incarnations. They would rather use allusion or euphemism.

]]> By: Nate Oman http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/07/persecution-and-the-art-of-mormon-writing/#comment-206668 Nate Oman Mon, 24 Jul 2006 17:04:07 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3262#comment-206668 I also wonder if the tortured prose of some Mormon scholarship comes from the fact that many Mormon scholars are independent researchers and autodidacts. Obfuscation and jargon may be a way of plastering over intellectual insecurities. In my work, I know that when I start engaging philosophical or economic arguments I have a tendency to start laying on the jargon pretty thick in large part, I think, because I am compesating for the fact that at the end of the day I am just a lawyer... I also wonder if the tortured prose of some Mormon scholarship comes from the fact that many Mormon scholars are independent researchers and autodidacts. Obfuscation and jargon may be a way of plastering over intellectual insecurities. In my work, I know that when I start engaging philosophical or economic arguments I have a tendency to start laying on the jargon pretty thick in large part, I think, because I am compesating for the fact that at the end of the day I am just a lawyer…

]]> By: DKL http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/07/persecution-and-the-art-of-mormon-writing/#comment-206664 DKL Mon, 24 Jul 2006 16:33:34 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3262#comment-206664 It's worth noting that Jesus spoke in terms elusive enough to lead to wars between those advocating some interpretation. I think it's fair to say that this is one area where we should probably <i>not</i> strive to be like Jesus. It’s worth noting that Jesus spoke in terms elusive enough to lead to wars between those advocating some interpretation. I think it’s fair to say that this is one area where we should probably not strive to be like Jesus.

]]> By: Christian Y. Cardall http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/07/persecution-and-the-art-of-mormon-writing/#comment-206662 Christian Y. Cardall Mon, 24 Jul 2006 16:30:22 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3262#comment-206662 Yes! Yes. Aside from any consciously esoteric or subversive undertakings, I suspect the situation is complicated further by the fact that the nature and motivations---not to mention entirely unforeseen readings---of their works are often not apparent to the authors themselves in the moment of creation. The need for potentially dangerous discovery and cautious problem-solving is no small part of why any such writing occurs in the first place. Yes! Yes.

Aside from any consciously esoteric or subversive undertakings, I suspect the situation is complicated further by the fact that the nature and motivations—not to mention entirely unforeseen readings—of their works are often not apparent to the authors themselves in the moment of creation. The need for potentially dangerous discovery and cautious problem-solving is no small part of why any such writing occurs in the first place.

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