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	<title>Comments on: Favorite Neglected Scriptures</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/05/favorite-neglected-scriptures/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: J.A.T.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/05/favorite-neglected-scriptures/#comment-202369</link>
		<dc:creator>J.A.T.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jun 2006 00:27:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3164#comment-202369</guid>
		<description>I nominate M.E. Edmond(?s) quote about the frequent misunderstanding of the hymn-scripture \&quot;Because I Have Been Given Much\&quot;.  Singing it, sometimes we get stuck on the \&quot;I have been given much\&quot; and continue in our minds and heart  \&quot;I have a-lot\&quot; instead of \&quot;I TOO MUST GIVE\&quot;. I goes along with S. Hardy\&#039;s comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I nominate M.E. Edmond(?s) quote about the frequent misunderstanding of the hymn-scripture \&#8221;Because I Have Been Given Much\&#8221;.  Singing it, sometimes we get stuck on the \&#8221;I have been given much\&#8221; and continue in our minds and heart  \&#8221;I have a-lot\&#8221; instead of \&#8221;I TOO MUST GIVE\&#8221;. I goes along with S. Hardy\&#8217;s comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/05/favorite-neglected-scriptures/#comment-176604</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 May 2006 22:43:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3164#comment-176604</guid>
		<description>The key difference between the Lord&#039;s way and the Left&#039;s way is that the Lord&#039;s plan is to persuade people to voluntarily consecrate their surplus time, energy, and temporal resources to the benefit of all mankind, where the contemporary Left&#039;s way boils down to coercion at the point of a gun.  

Take away sheriffs and IRS collection agents and make welfare more a matter of private charity the way it was about a century ago than a vast mostly middle class ponzi scheme, and any religious person would be obligated to contribute and cheer it on.

I do not mind the safety net aspect of government welfare, it is expensive middle class entitlements, plus long term subsidies of various social pathologies that I have a problem with.

There is one more thing - there is no Santa Claus - even if every member of the Church consecrated their surplus over and above a minimal lower middle class lifestyle, we would run out of funds running a generous welfare subsidy program overnight.  At some point, the welfare of the Saints is a function of work - hence the focus on training and education.

I am sure if people contributed more fast offerings we could do much more than we are doing, but there would never be enough to make the believers in Santa Claus happy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The key difference between the Lord&#8217;s way and the Left&#8217;s way is that the Lord&#8217;s plan is to persuade people to voluntarily consecrate their surplus time, energy, and temporal resources to the benefit of all mankind, where the contemporary Left&#8217;s way boils down to coercion at the point of a gun.  </p>
<p>Take away sheriffs and IRS collection agents and make welfare more a matter of private charity the way it was about a century ago than a vast mostly middle class ponzi scheme, and any religious person would be obligated to contribute and cheer it on.</p>
<p>I do not mind the safety net aspect of government welfare, it is expensive middle class entitlements, plus long term subsidies of various social pathologies that I have a problem with.</p>
<p>There is one more thing &#8211; there is no Santa Claus &#8211; even if every member of the Church consecrated their surplus over and above a minimal lower middle class lifestyle, we would run out of funds running a generous welfare subsidy program overnight.  At some point, the welfare of the Saints is a function of work &#8211; hence the focus on training and education.</p>
<p>I am sure if people contributed more fast offerings we could do much more than we are doing, but there would never be enough to make the believers in Santa Claus happy.</p>
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		<title>By: D-Train</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/05/favorite-neglected-scriptures/#comment-166906</link>
		<dc:creator>D-Train</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2006 16:51:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3164#comment-166906</guid>
		<description>I think Ed may have been talking about liberalism much more in the John Locke sense than the Teddy Kennedy sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Ed may have been talking about liberalism much more in the John Locke sense than the Teddy Kennedy sense.</p>
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		<title>By: S Hardy</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/05/favorite-neglected-scriptures/#comment-166806</link>
		<dc:creator>S Hardy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2006 14:10:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3164#comment-166806</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t resist adding another &quot;not quoted enough&quot; scripture for those on the Democratic end of the spectrum:

D&amp;C 104:14-17

&quot;14 I, the Lord, stretched out the heavens, and built the earth, my very handiwork; and all things therein are mine.

15 And it is my purpose to provide for my saints, for all things are mine.

16 But it must needs be done in mine own way; and behold this is the way that I, the Lord, have decreed to provide for my saints, that the poor shall be exalted, in that the rich are made low.
 
17 For the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare; yea, I prepared all things, and have given unto the children of men to be agents unto themselves.&quot;

Parts of this passage are quoted frequently, such as verse 17, which I have heard used to justify the exploitation of our enviornment.  However, I am most interested in verse 16 which seems to be a strong encouragment for a program of economic redistribution.  There is some irony, for me, that our church resouce booklet for our Welfare System uses part of the scripture &quot;The Lords Way&quot; as its title, while the program itself stresses individual rather than societal responsiblities towards the poor.  (I am not against individual responsibility, but I believe that we can and should do much more as a society as well.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t resist adding another &#8220;not quoted enough&#8221; scripture for those on the Democratic end of the spectrum:</p>
<p>D&amp;C 104:14-17</p>
<p>&#8220;14 I, the Lord, stretched out the heavens, and built the earth, my very handiwork; and all things therein are mine.</p>
<p>15 And it is my purpose to provide for my saints, for all things are mine.</p>
<p>16 But it must needs be done in mine own way; and behold this is the way that I, the Lord, have decreed to provide for my saints, that the poor shall be exalted, in that the rich are made low.</p>
<p>17 For the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare; yea, I prepared all things, and have given unto the children of men to be agents unto themselves.&#8221;</p>
<p>Parts of this passage are quoted frequently, such as verse 17, which I have heard used to justify the exploitation of our enviornment.  However, I am most interested in verse 16 which seems to be a strong encouragment for a program of economic redistribution.  There is some irony, for me, that our church resouce booklet for our Welfare System uses part of the scripture &#8220;The Lords Way&#8221; as its title, while the program itself stresses individual rather than societal responsiblities towards the poor.  (I am not against individual responsibility, but I believe that we can and should do much more as a society as well.)</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Johnson</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/05/favorite-neglected-scriptures/#comment-166322</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 May 2006 21:18:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3164#comment-166322</guid>
		<description>&quot;that we need to talk about principles like these in terms of proper balance of just claims, and not as a dichotomy of extremes.&quot;

Agreed, nicely said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;that we need to talk about principles like these in terms of proper balance of just claims, and not as a dichotomy of extremes.&#8221;</p>
<p>Agreed, nicely said.</p>
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		<title>By: Lynnette</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/05/favorite-neglected-scriptures/#comment-166320</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynnette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 May 2006 21:17:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3164#comment-166320</guid>
		<description>I like that counterpoint to 1 Nephi 3:7, which I think too often gets used as a club to beat people over the head with if they&#039;re having difficulties.  (&quot;The only possible reason you haven&#039;t yet managed to have children, transform your sexual orientation, convert everyone you know to the Church, etc., is your lack of faith and/or willpower; God wouldn&#039;t have told you to do it if it weren&#039;t possible!&quot;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like that counterpoint to 1 Nephi 3:7, which I think too often gets used as a club to beat people over the head with if they&#8217;re having difficulties.  (&#8220;The only possible reason you haven&#8217;t yet managed to have children, transform your sexual orientation, convert everyone you know to the Church, etc., is your lack of faith and/or willpower; God wouldn&#8217;t have told you to do it if it weren&#8217;t possible!&#8221;)</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/05/favorite-neglected-scriptures/#comment-166314</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 May 2006 21:07:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3164#comment-166314</guid>
		<description>Ed, I agree with you - I was simply trying to explain the reaction in terms of principles rather more serious than a knee-jerk anti-liberalism  - my first comment was much more muted.  My real point is that we need to talk about principles like these in terms of proper balance of just claims, and not as a dichotomy of extremes.  I consider the general issue extremely interesting and the scripture you quoted is particularly relevant to the proper scope and extent of civil government.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ed, I agree with you &#8211; I was simply trying to explain the reaction in terms of principles rather more serious than a knee-jerk anti-liberalism  &#8211; my first comment was much more muted.  My real point is that we need to talk about principles like these in terms of proper balance of just claims, and not as a dichotomy of extremes.  I consider the general issue extremely interesting and the scripture you quoted is particularly relevant to the proper scope and extent of civil government.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Johnson</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/05/favorite-neglected-scriptures/#comment-166308</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 May 2006 20:58:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3164#comment-166308</guid>
		<description>Mark, the reason I used the phrase &quot;so-called moral issues&quot; was not meant to imply that these issues do not involve morality.  It was because I recognize that there are many other things involved in morality, including not killing, or stealing, or being mean to your kids.  Limiting the concept of &quot;morality&quot; only to such things as I listed has always seemed strange to me.

Perhaps I should have been more clear.  On the other hand, perhaps in trying to understand what I wrote you could adopt a more charitable interpretation, rather than the interpretation that gets you the most riled up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, the reason I used the phrase &#8220;so-called moral issues&#8221; was not meant to imply that these issues do not involve morality.  It was because I recognize that there are many other things involved in morality, including not killing, or stealing, or being mean to your kids.  Limiting the concept of &#8220;morality&#8221; only to such things as I listed has always seemed strange to me.</p>
<p>Perhaps I should have been more clear.  On the other hand, perhaps in trying to understand what I wrote you could adopt a more charitable interpretation, rather than the interpretation that gets you the most riled up.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/05/favorite-neglected-scriptures/#comment-166286</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 May 2006 20:18:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3164#comment-166286</guid>
		<description>I will nominate Proverbs 11:14, and 24:6:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;in a multitude of counsellors there is safety&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is a fundamental reason for conciliarism in the Church, including Ward, Stake, and General councils, quorums, and presidencies.  When a leader chooses to disregard the feelings of his council or counsellors, he is taking an unnecessarily risky road.

We might call this the Central Limit Theorem of Church Administration - a rule documented in modern scripture in D&amp;C 107 and implied in D&amp;C 88:122:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Appoint among yourselves a teacher, and let not all be spokesmen at once; but let one speak at a time and let all listen unto his sayings, that when all have spoken that all may be edified of all, and that every man may have an equal privilege.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It is also the very basis of the principle of Correlation in the Church - a rule of safety if there ever was one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will nominate Proverbs 11:14, and 24:6:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;in a multitude of counsellors there is safety&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>This is a fundamental reason for conciliarism in the Church, including Ward, Stake, and General councils, quorums, and presidencies.  When a leader chooses to disregard the feelings of his council or counsellors, he is taking an unnecessarily risky road.</p>
<p>We might call this the Central Limit Theorem of Church Administration &#8211; a rule documented in modern scripture in D&amp;C 107 and implied in D&amp;C 88:122:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Appoint among yourselves a teacher, and let not all be spokesmen at once; but let one speak at a time and let all listen unto his sayings, that when all have spoken that all may be edified of all, and that every man may have an equal privilege.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>It is also the very basis of the principle of Correlation in the Church &#8211; a rule of safety if there ever was one.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy A. Griffy</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/05/favorite-neglected-scriptures/#comment-166156</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy A. Griffy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 May 2006 15:23:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3164#comment-166156</guid>
		<description>Seth: I know you tried to address the general topic.  Note my first comment (#9) addressed the point you made.

Wacky Hermit and others: I am not so sure that the circumstances of D&amp;C 124:49 are really all that rare.  If we may move to the sensus plenior of the passage, it seems to me that the &quot;enemies&quot; that may come upon us don&#039;t have to be limited to specific persons blocking our way to fulfilling the commandments.  The daily scramble of trying to make a living in the world while trying not to be of it is conflict enough.  I would therefore disagree that the near-total ignorance of this scripture in favor of 1 Ne. 3:7 is justified.  I think that both should be held up in juxtaposition with the other so that the resulting tension will remind us that even the life of faith is full of complexity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seth: I know you tried to address the general topic.  Note my first comment (#9) addressed the point you made.</p>
<p>Wacky Hermit and others: I am not so sure that the circumstances of D&amp;C 124:49 are really all that rare.  If we may move to the sensus plenior of the passage, it seems to me that the &#8220;enemies&#8221; that may come upon us don&#8217;t have to be limited to specific persons blocking our way to fulfilling the commandments.  The daily scramble of trying to make a living in the world while trying not to be of it is conflict enough.  I would therefore disagree that the near-total ignorance of this scripture in favor of 1 Ne. 3:7 is justified.  I think that both should be held up in juxtaposition with the other so that the resulting tension will remind us that even the life of faith is full of complexity.</p>
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