Comments on: The Vicar’s Garden in the Global South http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/the-vicars-garden-in-the-global-south/ Truth Will Prevail Thu, 24 May 2012 15:08:33 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Adam Greenwood http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/the-vicars-garden-in-the-global-south/#comment-133189 Adam Greenwood Mon, 24 Apr 2006 11:13:11 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3101#comment-133189 "Spanish will be spoken in General Conference, and not long thereafter RoastedTomatoes will rejoice as care for the world’s poor truly takes center stage. You heard it here first." This may be, but see two grounds to hesitate. First, language changes take awhile to percolate upwards (where there is a hierarchy, both de jure and de facto, as here) and language changes tend to be slow in religious matters where there is a quasi-canonical language (for us, English, the language in which the Book of Mormon was revealed and the revelations and the endowment were given). Second, while I'm sure that the Church becoming poorer and more global will ipso facto mean that care for the world's poor gets more important, I think its a mistake to assume that its the members abroad who would be driving the change or that caring for the world's poor would take center stage. As the Anglican controversy shows, caring for the poor is often not necessarily the main concern of converts in the Global South. They're not rice Christians. “Spanish will be spoken in General Conference, and not long thereafter RoastedTomatoes will rejoice as care for the world’s poor truly takes center stage. You heard it here first.”

This may be, but see two grounds to hesitate. First, language changes take awhile to percolate upwards (where there is a hierarchy, both de jure and de facto, as here) and language changes tend to be slow in religious matters where there is a quasi-canonical language (for us, English, the language in which the Book of Mormon was revealed and the revelations and the endowment were given). Second, while I’m sure that the Church becoming poorer and more global will ipso facto mean that care for the world’s poor gets more important, I think its a mistake to assume that its the members abroad who would be driving the change or that caring for the world’s poor would take center stage. As the Anglican controversy shows, caring for the poor is often not necessarily the main concern of converts in the Global South. They’re not rice Christians.

]]> By: greenfrog http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/the-vicars-garden-in-the-global-south/#comment-132669 greenfrog Fri, 21 Apr 2006 14:26:21 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3101#comment-132669 Yes, but so, too, are spring, winter, and summer. Yes, but so, too, are spring, winter, and summer.

]]> By: MikeInWeHo http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/the-vicars-garden-in-the-global-south/#comment-132561 MikeInWeHo Fri, 21 Apr 2006 06:42:19 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3101#comment-132561 #24 The Christian mega-churches definitely deserve their own string here. Is America's fall inevitable ? #24 The Christian mega-churches definitely deserve their own string here.

Is America’s fall inevitable ?

]]> By: Christian Y. Cardall http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/the-vicars-garden-in-the-global-south/#comment-132475 Christian Y. Cardall Fri, 21 Apr 2006 03:34:33 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3101#comment-132475 <i>what developments, political or demographic, could prompt such a shift</i> It will begin with a linguistic change: an article in the issue before latest of Dialogue (my first, obtained with DMI-Dave's mediated internet discount! But I also ordered BYU Studies for the first time, in time to get the WoJS issue, thanks to your plug) predicts that Spanish will become the majority language in the Church in, I can't remember, 2015 I think, or at least sometime between 2015 and 2020. Spanish will be spoken in General Conference, and not long thereafter RoastedTomatoes will rejoice as care for the world's poor truly takes center stage. You heard it here first. The similarity with Jacob 5 of the Archbishop's comments is bone-chillingly striking. Truly there is nothing new under the sun. what developments, political or demographic, could prompt such a shift

It will begin with a linguistic change: an article in the issue before latest of Dialogue (my first, obtained with DMI-Dave’s mediated internet discount! But I also ordered BYU Studies for the first time, in time to get the WoJS issue, thanks to your plug) predicts that Spanish will become the majority language in the Church in, I can’t remember, 2015 I think, or at least sometime between 2015 and 2020. Spanish will be spoken in General Conference, and not long thereafter RoastedTomatoes will rejoice as care for the world’s poor truly takes center stage. You heard it here first.

The similarity with Jacob 5 of the Archbishop’s comments is bone-chillingly striking. Truly there is nothing new under the sun.

]]> By: DKL http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/the-vicars-garden-in-the-global-south/#comment-132372 DKL Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:51:38 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3101#comment-132372 Look, if the Africans want to control the Anglican church, I say, "Let 'em!" Look, if the Africans want to control the Anglican church, I say, “Let ‘em!”

]]> By: a spectator http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/the-vicars-garden-in-the-global-south/#comment-132358 a spectator Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:21:13 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3101#comment-132358 Here in upstate NY, we have a former Episcaplian congregation that has joined the Anglican Church of Uganda (although so far their church property has not) and a significant number of African Catholic priests and nuns doing their work here. While African church-goers are generally thought of as socially conservative, this is only true in some matters. For example, they are more conservative about homosexuality but much less conservative about heterosexuality--it is quite common for African priests and nuns to have sexual relationships, sometimes with each other, sometimes with commoners. They see sex as a more inevitable part of life than the vatican would want them to. It is my understanding that the situation is south America is similar. I wonder how that dynamic could affect the overall church (or churches) when more people from these areas, with this background, and perhaps sharing these attitudes, rise to power or at least significant numbers. Here in upstate NY, we have a former Episcaplian congregation that has joined the Anglican Church of Uganda (although so far their church property has not) and a significant number of African Catholic priests and nuns doing their work here.

While African church-goers are generally thought of as socially conservative, this is only true in some matters. For example, they are more conservative about homosexuality but much less conservative about heterosexuality–it is quite common for African priests and nuns to have sexual relationships, sometimes with each other, sometimes with commoners. They see sex as a more inevitable part of life than the vatican would want them to. It is my understanding that the situation is south America is similar. I wonder how that dynamic could affect the overall church (or churches) when more people from these areas, with this background, and perhaps sharing these attitudes, rise to power or at least significant numbers.

]]> By: Seth R. http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/the-vicars-garden-in-the-global-south/#comment-132350 Seth R. Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:11:29 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3101#comment-132350 Sorry DKL, EU should have read "Europe." That solve it for you? MikeWei, No, I wouldn't blame it on the gays. I don't ascribe to that camp. I've got bigger fish to fry than the homosexuals. I'm honestly more worried about the "Christian megachurch" movement than I am about homosexuals. But I don't think there's any one thing you can pinpoint as the main cause for Rome's fall, or America's inevitable fall. Sorry DKL, EU should have read “Europe.” That solve it for you?

MikeWei,

No, I wouldn’t blame it on the gays. I don’t ascribe to that camp. I’ve got bigger fish to fry than the homosexuals. I’m honestly more worried about the “Christian megachurch” movement than I am about homosexuals. But I don’t think there’s any one thing you can pinpoint as the main cause for Rome’s fall, or America’s inevitable fall.

]]> By: forresta http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/the-vicars-garden-in-the-global-south/#comment-132325 forresta Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:33:45 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3101#comment-132325 No doubt control will be retained in SLC. But what of the influence of the larger world on the church. There's a (very) loose corollary between the inherent tension between personal revelation and formal, church-wide revelation, though I'm way too tired to dip into the details of all that rot. I'm interested to see how much control the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve are willing to give up to the Stakes and Districts of the church in "outlying" areas. They've had to make some adjustments because of sheer numbers (cf 2004's announcement that under some circumstances, Stake Presidents can make decisions regarding the restoration of Priesthood blessings to excommunicated members) and, though I don't see the brethren bending on the fundamentals (I sincerely hope not!), I could see them giving Stakes and Districts a little more control over decision-making on the local level. If they do, what will the church look like in ten or twenty years? More importantly, what kind of influence would the Stakes and Districts in the "far reaches" have on SLC and on church policy as a whole? Or will it have absolutely no impact at all? No doubt control will be retained in SLC. But what of the influence of the larger world on the church. There’s a (very) loose corollary between the inherent tension between personal revelation and formal, church-wide revelation, though I’m way too tired to dip into the details of all that rot. I’m interested to see how much control the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve are willing to give up to the Stakes and Districts of the church in “outlying” areas. They’ve had to make some adjustments because of sheer numbers (cf 2004′s announcement that under some circumstances, Stake Presidents can make decisions regarding the restoration of Priesthood blessings to excommunicated members) and, though I don’t see the brethren bending on the fundamentals (I sincerely hope not!), I could see them giving Stakes and Districts a little more control over decision-making on the local level. If they do, what will the church look like in ten or twenty years? More importantly, what kind of influence would the Stakes and Districts in the “far reaches” have on SLC and on church policy as a whole? Or will it have absolutely no impact at all?

]]> By: MikeInWeHo http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/the-vicars-garden-in-the-global-south/#comment-132287 MikeInWeHo Thu, 20 Apr 2006 19:59:27 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3101#comment-132287 Episcolalia ! Tongues with a British accent? I don't see the LDS church going into schism in our lifetime. Way too centralized, not to mention afraid of losing control. Even if the membership winds up predominantly outside the U.S., that doesn't mean control can't be retained in SLC. Episcolalia ! Tongues with a British accent?

I don’t see the LDS church going into schism in our lifetime. Way too centralized, not to mention afraid of losing control. Even if the membership winds up predominantly outside the U.S., that doesn’t mean control can’t be retained in SLC.

]]> By: Brad Kramer http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/the-vicars-garden-in-the-global-south/#comment-132259 Brad Kramer Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:11:22 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3101#comment-132259 Don't have time to make a long post here (you can all breathe your collective sigh of relief) except to say that there is a similar and veryhelpful discussion on this topic at LDSLF: http://ldsliberationfront.net/?p=115 I also believe that this subject is very much related to John Fowles post on Market Dominant Minorities -- especially in how it relates to Gentile/HoIsrael, last-first/first-last Bom prophecies: http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2998 I'll hope to make a more substantive contribution later. Don’t have time to make a long post here (you can all breathe your collective sigh of relief) except to say that there is a similar and veryhelpful discussion on this topic at LDSLF:

http://ldsliberationfront.net/?p=115

I also believe that this subject is very much related to John Fowles post on Market Dominant Minorities — especially in how it relates to Gentile/HoIsrael, last-first/first-last Bom prophecies:

http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2998

I’ll hope to make a more substantive contribution later.

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