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	<title>Comments on: The Puzzle of Blasphemy</title>
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	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: DKL</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/the-puzzle-of-blasphemy/#comment-133619</link>
		<dc:creator>DKL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Apr 2006 22:41:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3113#comment-133619</guid>
		<description>Elisabeth, there are a couple reasons why I conceive of God as a substitute teacher:

(a) the dictates of etiquette are stricter with regard to people with whom there is some distance. Both the substitute teacher and God operate from a greater distance than other authority.

(b) With a substitute teacher, there is no concrete notion of consequences, so that you &lt;i&gt;can&lt;/i&gt; conceivably get into trouble, but it&#039;s not in any immediate predictable way. With God, it&#039;s the same way, so that sinning does not cause bankruptcy or leprosy (ok, well, it used to cause leprosy, but it doesn&#039;t any more).

I could probably think of more, but that&#039;s all for now.

And incidentally, you needn&#039;t worry about getting struck down from above--Zeus is the guy with the lightning. Heavenly Father tends to prefer more earth-bound penalties like she-bears. But your implications about lightening remind me of something that Bertrand Russell said that contains, I think, a pretty prototypical example of how I think people conceive of blasphemy  (I&#039;ve been quoting him a lot lately. Perhaps it&#039;s been too long since I actually picked up and read something that he wrote.)

&lt;blockquote&gt;When Benjamin Franklin invented the lightning rod, the clergy, both in England and America, with the enthusiastic support of George III, condemned it as an impious attempt to defeat the will of God. For, as all right-thinking people were aware, lightning is sent by God to punish impiety or some other grave sin-the virtuous are never struck by lightning. Therefore if God wants to strike any one, Benjamin Franklin ought not to defeat His design; indeed, to do so is helping criminals to escape. But God was equal to the occasion, if we are to believe the eminent Dr. Price, one of the leading divines of Boston. Lightning having been rendered ineffectual by the &quot;iron points invented by the sagacious Dr. Franklin,&quot; Massachusetts was shaken by earthquakes, which Dr. Price perceived to be due to God&#039;s wrath at the &quot;iron points.&quot; In a sermon on the subject he said, &quot;In Boston are more erected than elsewhere in New England, and Boston seems to be more dreadfully shaken. Oh! there is no getting out of the mighty hand of God.&quot; Apparently, however, Providence gave up all hope of curing Boston of its wickedness, for, though lightning rods became more and more common, earthquakes in Massachusetts have remained rare.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Elisabeth, there are a couple reasons why I conceive of God as a substitute teacher:</p>
<p>(a) the dictates of etiquette are stricter with regard to people with whom there is some distance. Both the substitute teacher and God operate from a greater distance than other authority.</p>
<p>(b) With a substitute teacher, there is no concrete notion of consequences, so that you <i>can</i> conceivably get into trouble, but it&#8217;s not in any immediate predictable way. With God, it&#8217;s the same way, so that sinning does not cause bankruptcy or leprosy (ok, well, it used to cause leprosy, but it doesn&#8217;t any more).</p>
<p>I could probably think of more, but that&#8217;s all for now.</p>
<p>And incidentally, you needn&#8217;t worry about getting struck down from above&#8211;Zeus is the guy with the lightning. Heavenly Father tends to prefer more earth-bound penalties like she-bears. But your implications about lightening remind me of something that Bertrand Russell said that contains, I think, a pretty prototypical example of how I think people conceive of blasphemy  (I&#8217;ve been quoting him a lot lately. Perhaps it&#8217;s been too long since I actually picked up and read something that he wrote.)</p>
<blockquote><p>When Benjamin Franklin invented the lightning rod, the clergy, both in England and America, with the enthusiastic support of George III, condemned it as an impious attempt to defeat the will of God. For, as all right-thinking people were aware, lightning is sent by God to punish impiety or some other grave sin-the virtuous are never struck by lightning. Therefore if God wants to strike any one, Benjamin Franklin ought not to defeat His design; indeed, to do so is helping criminals to escape. But God was equal to the occasion, if we are to believe the eminent Dr. Price, one of the leading divines of Boston. Lightning having been rendered ineffectual by the &#8220;iron points invented by the sagacious Dr. Franklin,&#8221; Massachusetts was shaken by earthquakes, which Dr. Price perceived to be due to God&#8217;s wrath at the &#8220;iron points.&#8221; In a sermon on the subject he said, &#8220;In Boston are more erected than elsewhere in New England, and Boston seems to be more dreadfully shaken. Oh! there is no getting out of the mighty hand of God.&#8221; Apparently, however, Providence gave up all hope of curing Boston of its wickedness, for, though lightning rods became more and more common, earthquakes in Massachusetts have remained rare.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Elisabeth</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/the-puzzle-of-blasphemy/#comment-133603</link>
		<dc:creator>Elisabeth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Apr 2006 21:54:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3113#comment-133603</guid>
		<description>I feel like I&#039;m about to be struck down from above for asking this question, but how in the world is God akin to &quot;a substitute teacher&quot;?  I can see why Jim F. made the point that ridiculing God is similar to ridiculing a spouse or a close family member - because we experience God so personally and intimately (and also because of the references he points out in #34).  

But a substitute teacher?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel like I&#8217;m about to be struck down from above for asking this question, but how in the world is God akin to &#8220;a substitute teacher&#8221;?  I can see why Jim F. made the point that ridiculing God is similar to ridiculing a spouse or a close family member &#8211; because we experience God so personally and intimately (and also because of the references he points out in #34).  </p>
<p>But a substitute teacher?</p>
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		<title>By: DKL</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/the-puzzle-of-blasphemy/#comment-133601</link>
		<dc:creator>DKL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Apr 2006 21:51:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3113#comment-133601</guid>
		<description>For some reason my verb didn&#039;t make it into that last sentence of the 1st paragraph of comment 33, so that &quot;I really like that term&quot; turned into &quot;I really that term&quot; leaving only a vague impression of what I intended.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For some reason my verb didn&#8217;t make it into that last sentence of the 1st paragraph of comment 33, so that &#8220;I really like that term&#8221; turned into &#8220;I really that term&#8221; leaving only a vague impression of what I intended.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim F.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/the-puzzle-of-blasphemy/#comment-133597</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Apr 2006 21:44:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3113#comment-133597</guid>
		<description>DKL: Given the metaphors of marriage and sexuality we find in Hosea, Isaiah, the New Testament, etc., and the Jewish and Christian interpretation of those metaphors from at least the 4th century to the present, I don&#039;t think it is all that novel to think of God as having a relationship to us like that of a spouse. 

I&#039;m glad that &quot;inapt&quot; is only &lt;i&gt;almost&lt;/i&gt; a back formation and &lt;i&gt;almost&lt;/i&gt; an insult. I didn&#039;t intend it to be insulting, and I&#039;ll have to chalk any cleverness up to the language and not to myself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DKL: Given the metaphors of marriage and sexuality we find in Hosea, Isaiah, the New Testament, etc., and the Jewish and Christian interpretation of those metaphors from at least the 4th century to the present, I don&#8217;t think it is all that novel to think of God as having a relationship to us like that of a spouse. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad that &#8220;inapt&#8221; is only <i>almost</i> a back formation and <i>almost</i> an insult. I didn&#8217;t intend it to be insulting, and I&#8217;ll have to chalk any cleverness up to the language and not to myself.</p>
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		<title>By: DKL</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/the-puzzle-of-blasphemy/#comment-133594</link>
		<dc:creator>DKL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Apr 2006 21:18:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3113#comment-133594</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Jim F&lt;/b&gt;, it seems a little novel to put God in that kind of a position; viz., that of a scorned spouse. I think that a fairer characterization would be that blasphemy is akin to poking fun at the substitute teacher. (Incidentally, I neglected to mention that I really that term &lt;i&gt;inapt&lt;/i&gt;. It&#039;s almost a back formation but almost an insult--very clever.)

&lt;b&gt;Kevin&lt;/b&gt;, Wow. That&#039;s a pregnant etymology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Jim F</b>, it seems a little novel to put God in that kind of a position; viz., that of a scorned spouse. I think that a fairer characterization would be that blasphemy is akin to poking fun at the substitute teacher. (Incidentally, I neglected to mention that I really that term <i>inapt</i>. It&#8217;s almost a back formation but almost an insult&#8211;very clever.)</p>
<p><b>Kevin</b>, Wow. That&#8217;s a pregnant etymology.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Barney</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/the-puzzle-of-blasphemy/#comment-133569</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Barney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Apr 2006 17:31:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3113#comment-133569</guid>
		<description>#23, contumeliously derives from Latin contumelia &quot;an outrage, insult, reproach,&quot; which in turn probably derives from contumax &quot;haughty, stubborn,&quot; which in turn derives from the intensive prefix cum- + tumere &quot;to swell up.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#23, contumeliously derives from Latin contumelia &#8220;an outrage, insult, reproach,&#8221; which in turn probably derives from contumax &#8220;haughty, stubborn,&#8221; which in turn derives from the intensive prefix cum- + tumere &#8220;to swell up.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jim F.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/the-puzzle-of-blasphemy/#comment-133558</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:47:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>DKL: And my point was that&lt;i&gt;who&lt;/i&gt; a person is is absolutely relevant to the question of blasphemy. The answer to that question is what, in my mind, removes it from the realm of not performing home teaching or breaking the Word of Wisdom and puts it at a &quot;higher&quot; level. As I think someone else has already said, blasphemy is more like ridiculing your spouse in public or discussing the details of your intimate life in public. It&#039;s worse for me to do that than it would be for someone else to do that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DKL: And my point was that<i>who</i> a person is is absolutely relevant to the question of blasphemy. The answer to that question is what, in my mind, removes it from the realm of not performing home teaching or breaking the Word of Wisdom and puts it at a &#8220;higher&#8221; level. As I think someone else has already said, blasphemy is more like ridiculing your spouse in public or discussing the details of your intimate life in public. It&#8217;s worse for me to do that than it would be for someone else to do that.</p>
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		<title>By: DKL</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/the-puzzle-of-blasphemy/#comment-133513</link>
		<dc:creator>DKL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Apr 2006 05:37:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3113#comment-133513</guid>
		<description>Jim F, what I meant to point out with my examples is something like this:

Some sins are so severe that they preclude the sinner from being a generally moral person. An easy example of a sin this severe is mass murder. An easy example of a sin that is not so severe is failing to do home teaching, because I believe that there are many people who are quite moral but do not regularly do their home teaching (I, of course, am not one of them ;) ), even though we are obliged by covenant to do home teaching insofar as it is building the kingdom of God.

There are quite a lot of these severe sins. For example, if you are an active con-man or bank robber, most people would agree that you are not a generally moral person. If you are a compulsive liar, many would consider you to not be a generally moral person, but this is getting into the grey area. There are obviously controversial examples like porn viewing. (This tendency of severe sins to trump all other righteous acts is, no doubt, the reason that the 10 commandments are so heavily weighted on the &quot;thou shalt not&quot; side.)

Then there are things like alcohol which cut both ways. Most people who drink do so responsibly, and it has no bearing on their morality. But jails are full of people who committed crimes during a lapse in judgment due in no small part to inebriation.

This kind of thing comes and goes with fashion. For example, most people nowadays believe that one can cuss like a sailor and still be a man of sterling character. Some amount of paternalistic racism was fairly acceptable 50 years ago, but just about any amount nowadays is enough to tarnish even the brightest souls.

But whether they come and go with fashion, there are a great many sins that one may commit and still be esteemed a man of sterling character. In addition to the home teaching example, Nephi&#039;s sin of getting angry with his enemies is an easy example.

So my point with my examples on the blasphemy thing is that it seems to be on par with not performing home teaching or breaking the Word of Wisdom or getting angry at one&#039;s enemies, and not on par with murder or thievery. (of course, God can tolerate no uncleanliness at all, but that doesn&#039;t invalidate this as an exercise in casuistry).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim F, what I meant to point out with my examples is something like this:</p>
<p>Some sins are so severe that they preclude the sinner from being a generally moral person. An easy example of a sin this severe is mass murder. An easy example of a sin that is not so severe is failing to do home teaching, because I believe that there are many people who are quite moral but do not regularly do their home teaching (I, of course, am not one of them ;) ), even though we are obliged by covenant to do home teaching insofar as it is building the kingdom of God.</p>
<p>There are quite a lot of these severe sins. For example, if you are an active con-man or bank robber, most people would agree that you are not a generally moral person. If you are a compulsive liar, many would consider you to not be a generally moral person, but this is getting into the grey area. There are obviously controversial examples like porn viewing. (This tendency of severe sins to trump all other righteous acts is, no doubt, the reason that the 10 commandments are so heavily weighted on the &#8220;thou shalt not&#8221; side.)</p>
<p>Then there are things like alcohol which cut both ways. Most people who drink do so responsibly, and it has no bearing on their morality. But jails are full of people who committed crimes during a lapse in judgment due in no small part to inebriation.</p>
<p>This kind of thing comes and goes with fashion. For example, most people nowadays believe that one can cuss like a sailor and still be a man of sterling character. Some amount of paternalistic racism was fairly acceptable 50 years ago, but just about any amount nowadays is enough to tarnish even the brightest souls.</p>
<p>But whether they come and go with fashion, there are a great many sins that one may commit and still be esteemed a man of sterling character. In addition to the home teaching example, Nephi&#8217;s sin of getting angry with his enemies is an easy example.</p>
<p>So my point with my examples on the blasphemy thing is that it seems to be on par with not performing home teaching or breaking the Word of Wisdom or getting angry at one&#8217;s enemies, and not on par with murder or thievery. (of course, God can tolerate no uncleanliness at all, but that doesn&#8217;t invalidate this as an exercise in casuistry).</p>
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		<title>By: Jim F.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/the-puzzle-of-blasphemy/#comment-133505</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Apr 2006 04:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>DKL: The comparisons you make are inapt. Confessing God&#039;s hand in the world surely means more than saying &quot;God works in the world.&quot; Surely it means living in accordance with that recognition, even if imperfectly. I think that Hitler, Manson, and Bundy were more than just a little too imperfect to qualify. Mill, Russell, and Hume weren&#039;t reprobates because they denied God&#039;s existence. But they would be blasphemers if they, believing in God, exposed him to ridicule or, having made covenant with him, ridiculed or denied that covenant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DKL: The comparisons you make are inapt. Confessing God&#8217;s hand in the world surely means more than saying &#8220;God works in the world.&#8221; Surely it means living in accordance with that recognition, even if imperfectly. I think that Hitler, Manson, and Bundy were more than just a little too imperfect to qualify. Mill, Russell, and Hume weren&#8217;t reprobates because they denied God&#8217;s existence. But they would be blasphemers if they, believing in God, exposed him to ridicule or, having made covenant with him, ridiculed or denied that covenant.</p>
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		<title>By: DKL</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/the-puzzle-of-blasphemy/#comment-133496</link>
		<dc:creator>DKL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Apr 2006 03:14:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3113#comment-133496</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Jim F:&lt;/b&gt; &lt;i&gt;Some forms of speech are, as it were, acts of rebellion, a refusal to confess Godâ€™s hand in our lives or a denial of our covenant relation to him.&lt;/i&gt;

Fair enough. But this kind of rebellion is a pretty trivial affair. If Hitler or Charles Manson or Ted Bundie had confessed God&#039;s hand in his life would that have made him a better person? Are John Stuart Mill or Bertrand Russell or David Hume reprobates because they denied God&#039;s existence? In the scheme of things, I can&#039;t see how it&#039;s even as bad as drinking a glass of iced tea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Jim F:</b> <i>Some forms of speech are, as it were, acts of rebellion, a refusal to confess Godâ€™s hand in our lives or a denial of our covenant relation to him.</i></p>
<p>Fair enough. But this kind of rebellion is a pretty trivial affair. If Hitler or Charles Manson or Ted Bundie had confessed God&#8217;s hand in his life would that have made him a better person? Are John Stuart Mill or Bertrand Russell or David Hume reprobates because they denied God&#8217;s existence? In the scheme of things, I can&#8217;t see how it&#8217;s even as bad as drinking a glass of iced tea.</p>
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