Comments on: Sunday School Lesson #17 http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/sunday-school-lesson-17-2/ Truth Will Prevail Thu, 24 May 2012 14:56:35 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Jim F. http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/sunday-school-lesson-17-2/#comment-176217 Jim F. Thu, 25 May 2006 20:09:15 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3107#comment-176217 Patty: I do sometimes use questions from "the GD teacher in Utah" named Arthur Bassett, though I am also a GD teacher in Utah, along with a few others. And feel free to make your post as long as you wish. More than a page or two, however, sometimes overwhelms the thread. Robert C: Though I think that almost everyone is now past this lesson, I am interested in the chiastic patterns you mention. Thanks for pointing them out and pointing us to the <i>Word Biblical Commentary</i> discussion. However, like BrianJ, I'm skeptical. I agree with him that it doesn't make sense to have extremely long chiasmuses in texts intended to be heard rather than read. Overlapping chiasmuses are even less likely. Of course, it is possible that texts have complicated chiastic structures for the few readers, as a kind of "hidden wisdom" for the priests who can study them more closely, so I don't think that argument is decisive. Nevertheless, I think it should make us slow to accept chiasmuses. Patty: I do sometimes use questions from “the GD teacher in Utah” named Arthur Bassett, though I am also a GD teacher in Utah, along with a few others. And feel free to make your post as long as you wish. More than a page or two, however, sometimes overwhelms the thread.

Robert C: Though I think that almost everyone is now past this lesson, I am interested in the chiastic patterns you mention. Thanks for pointing them out and pointing us to the Word Biblical Commentary discussion. However, like BrianJ, I’m skeptical. I agree with him that it doesn’t make sense to have extremely long chiasmuses in texts intended to be heard rather than read. Overlapping chiasmuses are even less likely. Of course, it is possible that texts have complicated chiastic structures for the few readers, as a kind of “hidden wisdom” for the priests who can study them more closely, so I don’t think that argument is decisive. Nevertheless, I think it should make us slow to accept chiasmuses.

]]> By: BrianJ http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/sunday-school-lesson-17-2/#comment-154642 BrianJ Thu, 18 May 2006 02:44:13 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3107#comment-154642 Robert C: Just an update on my homework assignment (post 36). I didn't like two of the structures (Deut 7:12-11:25 and Deut 11:26-16:17). The first seems too broad to be useful to a listener. I am thinking of chiasmus as a teaching tool for drawing attention to a central, important point. Most Jews would not be able to study the Torah, only hear it in synagogue (they might be able to read it, but wouldn't own a copy). A chiasmus that spans so many chapters would, I think, be lost to just about any listener. It's possible that editors adapted the text to form this giant chiasmus, but wouldn't it only be noticed by a few select priests? So I'm not disputing that structure, I'm just not favoring it. The second one (Deut 11:26-16:17) is also too long for teaching a general crowd, and it also doesn't match up well: B, X, and B' are all lists of laws, so it's hard for me to see them as mirroring each other. That leaves A and A', and A' also seems like part of a list of duties along with B, X, and B'. That leaves the other four structures you posted. After a relatively quick study, I still like all of the remaining four. Deut 10:12-11:9 cuts a big chunk out of the structure I proposed, but I don't think that verses have to be exclusive to one chiasmus. I will really have to spend more time with this one. (Now down to three...) I think the last three structures might fit into the the structure I proposed (chiasma within a chiasmus). I'll have to work through that. In fact, Deut 11:10–25 is almost a beginning- and end-truncated version of the one I proposed. I'm not wed to the structure I proposed, so I may end up changing it quite a bit. Thanks again for your input. Robert C:

Just an update on my homework assignment (post 36). I didn’t like two of the structures (Deut 7:12-11:25 and Deut 11:26-16:17). The first seems too broad to be useful to a listener. I am thinking of chiasmus as a teaching tool for drawing attention to a central, important point. Most Jews would not be able to study the Torah, only hear it in synagogue (they might be able to read it, but wouldn’t own a copy). A chiasmus that spans so many chapters would, I think, be lost to just about any listener. It’s possible that editors adapted the text to form this giant chiasmus, but wouldn’t it only be noticed by a few select priests? So I’m not disputing that structure, I’m just not favoring it.

The second one (Deut 11:26-16:17) is also too long for teaching a general crowd, and it also doesn’t match up well: B, X, and B’ are all lists of laws, so it’s hard for me to see them as mirroring each other. That leaves A and A’, and A’ also seems like part of a list of duties along with B, X, and B’.

That leaves the other four structures you posted. After a relatively quick study, I still like all of the remaining four. Deut 10:12-11:9 cuts a big chunk out of the structure I proposed, but I don’t think that verses have to be exclusive to one chiasmus. I will really have to spend more time with this one.

(Now down to three…)
I think the last three structures might fit into the the structure I proposed (chiasma within a chiasmus). I’ll have to work through that. In fact, Deut 11:10–25 is almost a beginning- and end-truncated version of the one I proposed.

I’m not wed to the structure I proposed, so I may end up changing it quite a bit. Thanks again for your input.

]]> By: Patty http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/sunday-school-lesson-17-2/#comment-150539 Patty Tue, 16 May 2006 15:45:45 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3107#comment-150539 I know that Jim sometimes uses questions from the GD teacher in Utah.. I have his handout, so I will add a few Why does God tell Joshua to meditate on the law both day and night? Why would reading the scriptures be of help to a prophet who has direct contact with God? Josh 1 vs 8) Why does Joshua tell the Isrealites to prepare for THREE days? Which of the tribes were given the land of inheirtance on the EAST side of the river Jordan? If they already had theor inheirtance WHY did they have to cross over to the other side of Jordan? Who remained? Who crossed over? anyway.. not sure how long I can make a post I know that Jim sometimes uses questions from the GD teacher in Utah.. I have his handout, so I will add a few

Why does God tell Joshua to meditate on the law both day and night? Why would reading the scriptures be of help to a prophet who has direct contact with God?
Josh 1 vs 8)

Why does Joshua tell the Isrealites to prepare for THREE days?

Which of the tribes were given the land of inheirtance on the EAST side of the river Jordan? If they already had theor inheirtance WHY did they have to cross over to the other side of Jordan? Who remained? Who crossed over?

anyway.. not sure how long I can make a post

]]> By: Kimball L. Hunt http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/sunday-school-lesson-17-2/#comment-138866 Kimball L. Hunt Sun, 14 May 2006 02:30:48 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3107#comment-138866 Also patiently awaiting Godot, I mean Jim. Also patiently awaiting Godot, I mean Jim.

]]> By: Robert C. http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/sunday-school-lesson-17-2/#comment-138853 Robert C. Sun, 14 May 2006 01:54:39 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3107#comment-138853 Also, if anyone's interested, I've started posting SS notes for <a href="http://feastupontheword.org/User:RobertC/SS_lessons" rel="nofollow">Lessons 18 and 19 here</a>. I figured Jim either had stake/ward conference (ours is next week), or he got bogged down grading or something. Not having Jim's lessons sure makes me appreciate them more (maybe he's purposely not posting for this very reason!). Also, if anyone’s interested, I’ve started posting SS notes for Lessons 18 and 19 here. I figured Jim either had stake/ward conference (ours is next week), or he got bogged down grading or something. Not having Jim’s lessons sure makes me appreciate them more (maybe he’s purposely not posting for this very reason!).

]]> By: BrianJ http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/sunday-school-lesson-17-2/#comment-138852 BrianJ Sun, 14 May 2006 01:54:31 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3107#comment-138852 Robert C--Thanks! I posted expecting that you would have something helpful. I'll spend some time looking at those structures and then respond to your questions. Robert C–Thanks! I posted expecting that you would have something helpful. I’ll spend some time looking at those structures and then respond to your questions.

]]> By: Robert C. http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/sunday-school-lesson-17-2/#comment-138834 Robert C. Sun, 14 May 2006 00:45:39 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3107#comment-138834 BrianJ, I'd like to look at this closer—hopefully I'll have time in several days, but no promises (besides, I'm not qualified enough for you to put much stock in what I'd say anyway). But I did finally by the <i>Word Biblical Commentary</i> disks as Ben S. and Jim F. recommended a while ago (and am loving them!). <a href="http://feastupontheword.org/User:RobertC/Outlines/Deuteronomy" rel="nofollow">Here's</a> how they outline it. Notice they break it up, 11:10-25 as a chiasm, but the earlier verses and later verses have their own structure. Although, there's a complex overarching structure comprising several chapters which seems to split down chapter 11 down the middle. You can see the details for yourself. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts if you get a chance to compare their structuring to yours—whether you think theirs makes more sense and you see holes in yours, or you think their both valid, or you think yours is better. I've only done a litte independent analysis of chiasm, and it's been quite humbling. But I've learned the most when I try to outline the structure by myself before looking at scholarly work. BrianJ, I’d like to look at this closer—hopefully I’ll have time in several days, but no promises (besides, I’m not qualified enough for you to put much stock in what I’d say anyway). But I did finally by the Word Biblical Commentary disks as Ben S. and Jim F. recommended a while ago (and am loving them!). Here’s how they outline it. Notice they break it up, 11:10-25 as a chiasm, but the earlier verses and later verses have their own structure. Although, there’s a complex overarching structure comprising several chapters which seems to split down chapter 11 down the middle. You can see the details for yourself.

I’d be curious to hear your thoughts if you get a chance to compare their structuring to yours—whether you think theirs makes more sense and you see holes in yours, or you think their both valid, or you think yours is better. I’ve only done a litte independent analysis of chiasm, and it’s been quite humbling. But I’ve learned the most when I try to outline the structure by myself before looking at scholarly work.

]]> By: BrianJ http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/sunday-school-lesson-17-2/#comment-138761 BrianJ Sat, 13 May 2006 20:37:13 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3107#comment-138761 I wonder if anyone could help me with Deut 11. The chapter is set up kind of chiastic, but I’m such an amateur at these things that I’m afraid I may be messing it up. Here is the basic structure as I see it: A. Keep the Lord’s charge, statutes, judgments, and commandments always (verse 1). B. How the Lord cursed Israel’s enemies (verses 3-7). C. How the Lord blessed the land of Canaan for Israel (verses 8-12). D. The consequences of “If ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day� (verses 13-17). HINGE: “Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes� (verses 18-21). D’. The consequences of “For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you� (verses 22-25). C’. The blessing… B’. …and then curses the Lord has set before Israel (verses 26-31). A’. “And ye shall observe to do all the statutes and judgments which I set before you this day� (verse 32). Is anyone able to help me with this? Maybe it's not supposed to be a chiasmus, but the first and last verse are just sitting there like bookends. I wonder if anyone could help me with Deut 11. The chapter is set up kind of chiastic, but I’m such an amateur at these things that I’m afraid I may be messing it up. Here is the basic structure as I see it:

A. Keep the Lord’s charge, statutes, judgments, and commandments always (verse 1).
B. How the Lord cursed Israel’s enemies (verses 3-7).
C. How the Lord blessed the land of Canaan for Israel (verses 8-12).
D. The consequences of “If ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day� (verses 13-17).
HINGE: “Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes� (verses 18-21).
D’. The consequences of “For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you� (verses 22-25).
C’. The blessing…
B’. …and then curses the Lord has set before Israel (verses 26-31).
A’. “And ye shall observe to do all the statutes and judgments which I set before you this day� (verse 32).

Is anyone able to help me with this? Maybe it’s not supposed to be a chiasmus, but the first and last verse are just sitting there like bookends.

]]> By: Mark http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/sunday-school-lesson-17-2/#comment-137220 Mark Thu, 11 May 2006 00:22:04 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3107#comment-137220 Dear Kathy J: Thank you for your powerful words!!! As a single person these words have so much relevance to me as I contemplate making a life-long commitment and wondering if I'm really "in love." Dear Kathy J:
Thank you for your powerful words!!! As a single person these words have so much relevance to me as I contemplate making a life-long commitment and wondering if I’m really “in love.”

]]> By: Jim F. http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/sunday-school-lesson-17-2/#comment-136172 Jim F. Mon, 08 May 2006 14:42:15 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3107#comment-136172 Kathy J and Robert C: Thanks for a good discussion of the question. I think I will try to post something separately on it since it is worth talking about. Kathy J and Robert C: Thanks for a good discussion of the question. I think I will try to post something separately on it since it is worth talking about.

]]>