Comments on: S.P.Q.M.

By: Jonathan Green

Jonathan Green — Wed, 05 Apr 2006 14:54:07 +0000

(Nate: I know there is at least one classicist who is a regular reader of T&S. Now that the ink on the contract for his new job is dry, maybe he’ll stop hiding his light under a bushel.)

By: Nate Oman

Nate Oman — Wed, 05 Apr 2006 02:54:30 +0000

Hellmut: Marius was a member of the Senate. Many plebians were. By the time of the late Republic, the distinction between plebians and patricians was mainly religious — ie certain priesthoods could only be held by patricians. Also patricians could not be tribunes of the plebes. On the other hand, tribunes, praetors, etc. were admitted to the Senate, and I don’t think that a man could stand for consul without having first been elected praetor, which means that he would have been a member of the Senate.

As I understand it there were more or less three categories: patricians, plebes, and nobility. Patricians and plebes were identies based on archiac distinctions that may have at one time corresponded to aristocracy and people, but by the classical period had ceased to matter except for certain offices. Nobility came from being descended from a man who had been consul. Hence, one could be from a plebian noble family or from a patrician noble family. (At least this is my understanding; if we have any real classicists among our readers, please correct me.)

Mike: The distribution of administrative power between the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve is interesting, but I don’t know all that much about it. I also suspect that it varies a good deal based on the personality of the men holding the various callings.

By: Mike

Mike — Wed, 05 Apr 2006 02:08:21 +0000

“In a very real way, the Quorum of the Twelve functions as a kind of Mormon Senate. … Yet one senses that the Mormon Senate is in some sense a tame body, willingly subjected to the authority of the First Presidency.”

Nate, have you thought about how this might tie with Correlation?

We all know that Correlation has shifted more and more responsibilities to the Twelve (see Prince’s recent DOM book). I’ve actually heard one LDS author make an interesting observation that under Correlation the Church President has become more like the head of state while the President of the Twelve has become more like the head of government.

By: Kimball Hunt

Kimball Hunt — Wed, 05 Apr 2006 01:19:34 +0000

It’s not a bad idea to have any rambunctious reigns of power held accountable to some traditional council of elders, sages who in their collective insitutional wisdom have long been there and often done that.

By: anonfornow

anonfornow — Tue, 04 Apr 2006 19:16:50 +0000

In re # 5: Where are the gladiators? – Church Ball
Where are the orgies? – Youth dances
Where are the slaves and the prostitutes? – Primary and Relief Society
Where is the literature? – Deseret Books

By: Dave

Dave — Tue, 04 Apr 2006 15:10:11 +0000

Nate, it seems like you’re making two arguments. The first is that LDS governance is built on a bunch of more-or-less independent (or at least separate) quorums. I think that was more accurate of 19th-century Mormonism, where the First Presidency was an independent quorum rather than an executive committee of the Twelve, and where quorums of Seventies were separately organized and maintained (somewhat independent of stake boundaries, I think).

Your second idea, the senatorial one, seems more like 20th- and 21st-century LDS governance, which is much more rationalized and centralized under the direction of the Big 15. The only thing missing in your sketch is a challenge to the LDS Senate by the appearance of a Caesar …

By: Boris Max

Boris Max — Tue, 04 Apr 2006 14:39:49 +0000

But what about the culture that produced Roman republicanism and imperialism? I see no parallels here. Where are the gladiators? Where are the orgies? Where are the slaves and the prostitutes? Where is the literature? How does Ovid or Vergil or Terrence or Plautus or Catullus fit into all of this? Or are you suggesting that governance exists in isolation from the day-to-day lives of the governed?

By: Hellmut Lotz

Hellmut Lotz — Tue, 04 Apr 2006 14:16:29 +0000

It’s probably not correct that consuls were recruited from the Senate. Even before the fourth century about a third of consuls were pleibeians, which contradicts the supposed limitation to patricians. Thus the Senate cannot have been the exclusive source of consular officers.

The most prominent non-Senator is, of course, the infamous Marius who busted the term limits of the office and became consul seven times.

By: Ryan

Ryan — Tue, 04 Apr 2006 06:52:43 +0000

Wait a second.. I thought Ronan was English.. my how easily I gets confuseded

By: Josh Kim

Josh Kim — Tue, 04 Apr 2006 05:59:53 +0000

Elaborating on my freedom comment, biannual General Conferences remind us of the influence that words of the General Authorities have on our day to day life. These are literally words from the Lord.

In the beginning days of the the Roman Republic the decrees of the Senate were also held in such esteem as the relgious ordinances and the sacrifices of the Vestal Virgins and the Pontifex Maximus were held in sync with the operations of the Senate.

Also I wanted to mention that the beginnings of the Latter-day Church and it’s evolution over the years have similiarities to that of Ancient Rome. The Church was predominantly white, as it was founded in North America. The leadership of the Church, as it is done today, comes from the general membership of the Church. Anyone can become Prophet but of course, the path takes years and years of service to the Church and certain prerequisites have become precedence. For example, service as President of BYU usually (but not always) means a calling as an Apostle or some other high calling. In the ancient Senate the path to membership in the Senate and Consul took years of service as an eqestrian, Quaestor, Praetor, etc. Also the Patriarchal nature of the Church and the hierarchy is something that is also a trait of Rome although the same could be said of any ancient civilization.