<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Puritanism without Calvinism</title>
	<atom:link href="http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/puritanism-without-calvinism/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/puritanism-without-calvinism/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 06:09:37 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kimball L. Hunt</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/puritanism-without-calvinism/#comment-133911</link>
		<dc:creator>Kimball L. Hunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Apr 2006 23:44:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3106#comment-133911</guid>
		<description>Erratum: People who don&#039;t think Mormonism and Calvinism have a lot in common perhaps hold some aspect of Calvinism in high esteem which they don&#039;t see in Mormonism -- or even vice versa -- which would be fine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erratum: People who don&#8217;t think Mormonism and Calvinism have a lot in common perhaps hold some aspect of Calvinism in high esteem which they don&#8217;t see in Mormonism &#8212; or even vice versa &#8212; which would be fine.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kimball L. Hunt</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/puritanism-without-calvinism/#comment-133907</link>
		<dc:creator>Kimball L. Hunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Apr 2006 23:05:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3106#comment-133907</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Nate! (&amp; although I&#039;ve been haunting some of your blogs for a couple weeks, this may be your first referenced of me. Anyway, since you and Mormonism seem to have a real rapport and a great deal of mutual respect and understanding, thank you for being a go-between. Oh tell Her sorry She and I&#039;d had that personality conflict back then, but I think of Her often, remembering Her fondly , still feeling a lot of love towards Her! Smiles.) Anyways:

I&#039;ve always thought Mormonism and Calvinism had a lot in common. People who don&#039;t perhaps hold some aspect of Calvinism in high esteem which they don&#039;t see in Mormonism -- or even vice versa -- which would be fine. However the aspect I see in the both of em is their insistence for some kind of proof of God&#039;s grace, in a sense, as exemplified in the individual&#039;s actions, the measure of which is to be gaged by local religious authority and the community.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Nate! (&amp; although I&#8217;ve been haunting some of your blogs for a couple weeks, this may be your first referenced of me. Anyway, since you and Mormonism seem to have a real rapport and a great deal of mutual respect and understanding, thank you for being a go-between. Oh tell Her sorry She and I&#8217;d had that personality conflict back then, but I think of Her often, remembering Her fondly , still feeling a lot of love towards Her! Smiles.) Anyways:</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve always thought Mormonism and Calvinism had a lot in common. People who don&#8217;t perhaps hold some aspect of Calvinism in high esteem which they don&#8217;t see in Mormonism &#8212; or even vice versa &#8212; which would be fine. However the aspect I see in the both of em is their insistence for some kind of proof of God&#8217;s grace, in a sense, as exemplified in the individual&#8217;s actions, the measure of which is to be gaged by local religious authority and the community.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Beijing</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/puritanism-without-calvinism/#comment-133781</link>
		<dc:creator>Beijing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Apr 2006 20:02:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3106#comment-133781</guid>
		<description>I still think respect is due to the way post-Mormons define themselves, but since you reject our definition as not sufficiently clinical, I will stop defending the language and instead just defend the people. 

Some *Mormons* might get that same wry pleasure you speak of, would they not? As might some Evangelicals, some secularists, and others who have never been Mormon. There was no need to single out post-Mormons as the only group of people worth mentioning of whom *some* might be ignorant enough to think Puritans and/or Mormons were big into witchburning and mean enough to enjoy the thought. In fact we would be less likely than certain other groups you could have singled out, such as &quot;anti-Mormons.&quot; 

Language (rhetoric, semantics, logic) did not require you either to mention or to omit mention of any group that might accidentally have overlapped with the set of people who like to think of Mormons as witchburners. You could have just written &quot;some may like my comparison...&quot; and left the dig at post-Mormons entirely out. But you didn&#039;t; you chose to single out one particular group, and I happen to belong to it. I don&#039;t appreciate the smear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still think respect is due to the way post-Mormons define themselves, but since you reject our definition as not sufficiently clinical, I will stop defending the language and instead just defend the people. </p>
<p>Some *Mormons* might get that same wry pleasure you speak of, would they not? As might some Evangelicals, some secularists, and others who have never been Mormon. There was no need to single out post-Mormons as the only group of people worth mentioning of whom *some* might be ignorant enough to think Puritans and/or Mormons were big into witchburning and mean enough to enjoy the thought. In fact we would be less likely than certain other groups you could have singled out, such as &#8220;anti-Mormons.&#8221; </p>
<p>Language (rhetoric, semantics, logic) did not require you either to mention or to omit mention of any group that might accidentally have overlapped with the set of people who like to think of Mormons as witchburners. You could have just written &#8220;some may like my comparison&#8230;&#8221; and left the dig at post-Mormons entirely out. But you didn&#8217;t; you chose to single out one particular group, and I happen to belong to it. I don&#8217;t appreciate the smear.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: nate oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/puritanism-without-calvinism/#comment-133697</link>
		<dc:creator>nate oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Apr 2006 13:46:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3106#comment-133697</guid>
		<description>Kimball, next time I have lunch with Mormonism, I&#039;ll ask it to be nicer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kimball, next time I have lunch with Mormonism, I&#8217;ll ask it to be nicer.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/puritanism-without-calvinism/#comment-133650</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Apr 2006 03:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3106#comment-133650</guid>
		<description>Beijing: I didn&#039;t suggest that post-Mormons are people who delight in inaccurate descriptions of the Church.  I used the word &quot;some.&quot;  This suggests that that I was discussing an accidental rather than a necessary characteristic of the hypothetical post-Mormons in question.  Look, &quot;post-Mormon&quot; is not a phrase with some sort of clinically precise meaning that I have abused by suggesting that some who might be so described might get a bit of wry pleasure out of thinking of Mormons as Puritans.  In my time I have committed many a rhetorical outrage on this blog, but I really don&#039;t think that this is one of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beijing: I didn&#8217;t suggest that post-Mormons are people who delight in inaccurate descriptions of the Church.  I used the word &#8220;some.&#8221;  This suggests that that I was discussing an accidental rather than a necessary characteristic of the hypothetical post-Mormons in question.  Look, &#8220;post-Mormon&#8221; is not a phrase with some sort of clinically precise meaning that I have abused by suggesting that some who might be so described might get a bit of wry pleasure out of thinking of Mormons as Puritans.  In my time I have committed many a rhetorical outrage on this blog, but I really don&#8217;t think that this is one of them.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: MikeInWeHo</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/puritanism-without-calvinism/#comment-133508</link>
		<dc:creator>MikeInWeHo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Apr 2006 05:03:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3106#comment-133508</guid>
		<description>That would be a great string for one of you powerful perma-bloggers to start:  What is a post-mormon vs. anti-mormon?  And what on earth is a &quot;Friend of the Church&quot; ??  I like to think of myself as one, but perhaps I&#039;m just deluding myself. Another question:  How many people blogging in here are active members?  recommend holders?  inactive?  ex-communicated?  seventies?  An informal census of the Bloggernacle might be fascinating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That would be a great string for one of you powerful perma-bloggers to start:  What is a post-mormon vs. anti-mormon?  And what on earth is a &#8220;Friend of the Church&#8221; ??  I like to think of myself as one, but perhaps I&#8217;m just deluding myself. Another question:  How many people blogging in here are active members?  recommend holders?  inactive?  ex-communicated?  seventies?  An informal census of the Bloggernacle might be fascinating.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kimball L. Hunt</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/puritanism-without-calvinism/#comment-133499</link>
		<dc:creator>Kimball L. Hunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Apr 2006 03:50:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3106#comment-133499</guid>
		<description>Post-mos take Mormonism out one last time: &quot;It&#039;s not you, baby, it&#039;s us. We -- just need space.&quot; Yet despite such courtesy, Mormonism&#039;s goin round tellin people what heels post-Mormons are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Post-mos take Mormonism out one last time: &#8220;It&#8217;s not you, baby, it&#8217;s us. We &#8212; just need space.&#8221; Yet despite such courtesy, Mormonism&#8217;s goin round tellin people what heels post-Mormons are.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Beijing</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/puritanism-without-calvinism/#comment-133486</link>
		<dc:creator>Beijing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Apr 2006 01:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3106#comment-133486</guid>
		<description>I saw the word &quot;disillusioned&quot; in the post you linked to, but not the word &quot;post-Mormon.&quot; Did the folks who enjoyed the KGB comparison use the term &quot;post-Mormon&quot; to describe themselves?

I agree that what words mean is due to social convention. Where did you pick up on the social convention of calling people who delight in inaccurate descriptions of the church &quot;post-Mormons&quot;? I don&#039;t think such a convention exists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I saw the word &#8220;disillusioned&#8221; in the post you linked to, but not the word &#8220;post-Mormon.&#8221; Did the folks who enjoyed the KGB comparison use the term &#8220;post-Mormon&#8221; to describe themselves?</p>
<p>I agree that what words mean is due to social convention. Where did you pick up on the social convention of calling people who delight in inaccurate descriptions of the church &#8220;post-Mormons&#8221;? I don&#8217;t think such a convention exists.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/puritanism-without-calvinism/#comment-133475</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Apr 2006 23:28:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3106#comment-133475</guid>
		<description>Beijing: Well I recall an experience several years ago of having dinner in Berkley with &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=1373&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a nice group of post-Mormons who likened the Church to the KGB&lt;/a&gt;.  It is not quite the same thing as suggesting that we&#039;re witch burners, but being compared to a brutal totalitarian dictatorship didn&#039;t seem too far away.

As for &quot;Mormon&quot; polygamists, there is a certain definitional sleight of hand involved in insisting that they aren&#039;t Mormons.  This is certainly true if one means by Mormon, a member in good standing of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  On the other hand, it is not unreasonable to think that the Mormon means something like a follower of Joseph Smith or the like.  Everyone has the right to make arguments about what words ought to mean, however the question of what they actually do mean seems to me to be a matter of social convention rather than group ownership.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beijing: Well I recall an experience several years ago of having dinner in Berkley with <a href="http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=1373" rel="nofollow">a nice group of post-Mormons who likened the Church to the KGB</a>.  It is not quite the same thing as suggesting that we&#8217;re witch burners, but being compared to a brutal totalitarian dictatorship didn&#8217;t seem too far away.</p>
<p>As for &#8220;Mormon&#8221; polygamists, there is a certain definitional sleight of hand involved in insisting that they aren&#8217;t Mormons.  This is certainly true if one means by Mormon, a member in good standing of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  On the other hand, it is not unreasonable to think that the Mormon means something like a follower of Joseph Smith or the like.  Everyone has the right to make arguments about what words ought to mean, however the question of what they actually do mean seems to me to be a matter of social convention rather than group ownership.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Beijing</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/puritanism-without-calvinism/#comment-133472</link>
		<dc:creator>Beijing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Apr 2006 23:11:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3106#comment-133472</guid>
		<description>&quot;definitional sleight of hand on your part that implies a level of precision in the defition of the term â€œpost-Mormonâ€? that does not exist.&quot;

I don&#039;t appreciate being accused of sleight of hand when I am presenting the truth as I understand it. Is it definitional sleight of hand when Mormons sound an outcry against the media&#039;s labeling of polygamist splinter groups as &quot;Mormon&quot;? Would you say that all Mormons should sit on their hands and silently accept the media&#039;s choice to continue to muddy and smear the already not-universally-accepted definition of &quot;Mormon?&quot; Personally, I think it&#039;s the right of any group to define what does and doesn&#039;t fall under the umbrella of its label.

Every self-described post-Mormon I have ever met has used the term to mean just what I said it meant. Peradventure you can find me one person who identifies as post-Mormon and admits that they enjoy the comparison of Mormons to a group that they perceive as brutal witchburning hypocrites, and if you can, I&#039;ll back down. Otherwise, I&#039;ll ask you to kindly cease the smears of post-Mormons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;definitional sleight of hand on your part that implies a level of precision in the defition of the term â€œpost-Mormonâ€? that does not exist.&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t appreciate being accused of sleight of hand when I am presenting the truth as I understand it. Is it definitional sleight of hand when Mormons sound an outcry against the media&#8217;s labeling of polygamist splinter groups as &#8220;Mormon&#8221;? Would you say that all Mormons should sit on their hands and silently accept the media&#8217;s choice to continue to muddy and smear the already not-universally-accepted definition of &#8220;Mormon?&#8221; Personally, I think it&#8217;s the right of any group to define what does and doesn&#8217;t fall under the umbrella of its label.</p>
<p>Every self-described post-Mormon I have ever met has used the term to mean just what I said it meant. Peradventure you can find me one person who identifies as post-Mormon and admits that they enjoy the comparison of Mormons to a group that they perceive as brutal witchburning hypocrites, and if you can, I&#8217;ll back down. Otherwise, I&#8217;ll ask you to kindly cease the smears of post-Mormons.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
<!-- WP Super Cache is installed but broken. The path to wp-cache-phase1.php in wp-content/advanced-cache.php must be fixed! -->
