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	<title>Comments on: Woefully Arrayed</title>
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	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By:  Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/woefully-arrayed/#comment-125706</link>
		<dc:creator> Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Mar 2006 13:02:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Manaen,

I think you are right.

Edje,

That must have been it.  Frankly you quoted the only good part of the poem.  And I can never remember whether Edith Sitwell was the fascist Sitwell or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Manaen,</p>
<p>I think you are right.</p>
<p>Edje,</p>
<p>That must have been it.  Frankly you quoted the only good part of the poem.  And I can never remember whether Edith Sitwell was the fascist Sitwell or not.</p>
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		<title>By: manaen</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/woefully-arrayed/#comment-125639</link>
		<dc:creator>manaen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Mar 2006 20:30:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Regarding &lt;i&gt;&quot;believe in Christ, and view his death, and suffer his cross and bear the shame of the world&quot;&lt;/i&gt; (Jac 1:8).  Maybe this is a call for us to become more like Christ, to follow him in deeds as well as in faith.  Note the similarity in wording in Alma&#039;s baptismal challenge, which calls us to begin to step into the same actions Jacob cites by Christ: 

&lt;i&gt;&quot;are willing to bear one anotherâ€™s burdens [cf &quot;shame of the world&quot;], that they may be light; Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort and to stand as witnesses of God [cf &quot;believe in Christ&quot;] at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death [cf &quot;his death&quot; in Jacob], that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal [Christlike] life&quot;&lt;/i&gt; (Msh 18:8-9)

As others helped me though my repentance, they helped bear my shame.  They mourned with me about my deserved burdens and made them lighter.  They comforted me, who greatly stood in need of their comfort.  This caused them anguish both for me and in understanding how I&#039;d hurt other people they knew and loved.  They weren&#039;t required to do this but their love for God, and eventually for me, led them to it.

I believe that the gospel&#039;s core message isn&#039;t so much that we won&#039;t suffer for our sins -- the soul&#039;s changes of repentance depend upon us so suffering -- nor that justice means we won&#039;t be *compelled* to suffer for the sins of others.  Rather, the love we are called to develop for others means that mercy impels us to *give* ourselves to mourn with them and to lighten their burdens by taking such of them as we are able upon ourselves.

&lt;i&gt;&quot;When we are willing to restore to others that which we have not taken, or heal wounds that we did not inflict, or pay a debt that we did not incur, we are emulating His part in the Atonement&quot;&lt;/i&gt; (Boyd K. Packer, GenCon 10/1995)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding <i>&#8220;believe in Christ, and view his death, and suffer his cross and bear the shame of the world&#8221;</i> (Jac 1:8).  Maybe this is a call for us to become more like Christ, to follow him in deeds as well as in faith.  Note the similarity in wording in Alma&#8217;s baptismal challenge, which calls us to begin to step into the same actions Jacob cites by Christ: </p>
<p><i>&#8220;are willing to bear one anotherâ€™s burdens [cf "shame of the world"], that they may be light; Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort and to stand as witnesses of God [cf "believe in Christ"] at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death [cf "his death" in Jacob], that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal [Christlike] life&#8221;</i> (Msh 18:8-9)</p>
<p>As others helped me though my repentance, they helped bear my shame.  They mourned with me about my deserved burdens and made them lighter.  They comforted me, who greatly stood in need of their comfort.  This caused them anguish both for me and in understanding how I&#8217;d hurt other people they knew and loved.  They weren&#8217;t required to do this but their love for God, and eventually for me, led them to it.</p>
<p>I believe that the gospel&#8217;s core message isn&#8217;t so much that we won&#8217;t suffer for our sins &#8212; the soul&#8217;s changes of repentance depend upon us so suffering &#8212; nor that justice means we won&#8217;t be *compelled* to suffer for the sins of others.  Rather, the love we are called to develop for others means that mercy impels us to *give* ourselves to mourn with them and to lighten their burdens by taking such of them as we are able upon ourselves.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;When we are willing to restore to others that which we have not taken, or heal wounds that we did not inflict, or pay a debt that we did not incur, we are emulating His part in the Atonement&#8221;</i> (Boyd K. Packer, GenCon 10/1995)</p>
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		<title>By: DKL</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/woefully-arrayed/#comment-125630</link>
		<dc:creator>DKL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Mar 2006 16:35:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3013#comment-125630</guid>
		<description>Frank, fair enough. Honestly, I&#039;m not terribly fond of the Book of Jacob as a whole. It tends to read like it was written by someone who is somewhat exhausted (with life, not for the moment) and who is writing late at night so that everything seems just &lt;i&gt;that much&lt;/i&gt; more melodramatic.

Adam, thanks for being candid. I&#039;m curious to hear what comes of your additional thinking on the matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frank, fair enough. Honestly, I&#8217;m not terribly fond of the Book of Jacob as a whole. It tends to read like it was written by someone who is somewhat exhausted (with life, not for the moment) and who is writing late at night so that everything seems just <i>that much</i> more melodramatic.</p>
<p>Adam, thanks for being candid. I&#8217;m curious to hear what comes of your additional thinking on the matter.</p>
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		<title>By: Edje</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/woefully-arrayed/#comment-125621</link>
		<dc:creator>Edje</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Mar 2006 15:22:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3013#comment-125621</guid>
		<description>Adam G: &quot;&lt;em&gt;I started thinking about the Passion when I was laid waste by a poem written in early WWII that started something like â€˜1939 nails in the cross.â€™ I have been unable to find it since.&lt;/em&gt;&quot;

Could this have been &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.poetryarchive.org/poetryarchive/singlePoem.do?poemId=1564&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Still Falls the Rain (The Raids, 1940, Night and Dawn)&lt;/a&gt;&quot; by Edith Sitwell?

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;em&gt;Still falls the Rain-- 
Dark as the world of man, black as our loss-- 
Blind as the nineteen hundred and forty nails 
Upon the Cross. 
...&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam G: &#8220;<em>I started thinking about the Passion when I was laid waste by a poem written in early WWII that started something like â€˜1939 nails in the cross.â€™ I have been unable to find it since.</em>&#8221;</p>
<p>Could this have been &#8220;<a href="http://www.poetryarchive.org/poetryarchive/singlePoem.do?poemId=1564" rel="nofollow">Still Falls the Rain (The Raids, 1940, Night and Dawn)</a>&#8221; by Edith Sitwell?</p>
<blockquote><p><em>Still falls the Rain&#8211;<br />
Dark as the world of man, black as our loss&#8211;<br />
Blind as the nineteen hundred and forty nails<br />
Upon the Cross.<br />
&#8230;</em></p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/woefully-arrayed/#comment-125616</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Mar 2006 13:26:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3013#comment-125616</guid>
		<description>DKL,
I&#039;ll have to think about it more, but I think you are not entirely off.  There is a sense in which Jacob is referring to pain at the sins of the world and pain at one&#039;s own fallenness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DKL,<br />
I&#8217;ll have to think about it more, but I think you are not entirely off.  There is a sense in which Jacob is referring to pain at the sins of the world and pain at one&#8217;s own fallenness.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/woefully-arrayed/#comment-125615</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Mar 2006 13:20:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3013#comment-125615</guid>
		<description>A lovely poem, Ross G.   I&#039;ve been thinking of subscribing to BYU Studies just for the occasional poem.

Ariel,

I have a hard time advising you.  I came to an interest in Catholicism and Old Anglicanism through Anglo-Catholic writing--Waugh, Chesterton, Flannery O&#039;Connor, Graham Greene, Lewis, Tolkien, Newman, and so forth.  I started thinking about the Passion when I was laid waste by a poem written in early WWII that started something like &#039;1939 nails in the cross.&#039;  I have been unable to find it since.  I&#039;ve read a few encyclicals, but most of my exposure has been casual--going to Notre Dame, reading First Things and National Review, religious art, Holy Week in Spain, some poetry.

The most fruitful devotional stuff in Anglo-Catholicism, for me, is writing on the Passion and on the meaning of the Incarnation (start with Chesterton, he has accessible writing.  Lewis too).  We don&#039;t share the Catholic theology of the Incarnation but the meaning they ascribe to it has only been enhanced when I&#039;ve realized that for Mormons every person is an incarnation in a sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lovely poem, Ross G.   I&#8217;ve been thinking of subscribing to BYU Studies just for the occasional poem.</p>
<p>Ariel,</p>
<p>I have a hard time advising you.  I came to an interest in Catholicism and Old Anglicanism through Anglo-Catholic writing&#8211;Waugh, Chesterton, Flannery O&#8217;Connor, Graham Greene, Lewis, Tolkien, Newman, and so forth.  I started thinking about the Passion when I was laid waste by a poem written in early WWII that started something like &#8217;1939 nails in the cross.&#8217;  I have been unable to find it since.  I&#8217;ve read a few encyclicals, but most of my exposure has been casual&#8211;going to Notre Dame, reading First Things and National Review, religious art, Holy Week in Spain, some poetry.</p>
<p>The most fruitful devotional stuff in Anglo-Catholicism, for me, is writing on the Passion and on the meaning of the Incarnation (start with Chesterton, he has accessible writing.  Lewis too).  We don&#8217;t share the Catholic theology of the Incarnation but the meaning they ascribe to it has only been enhanced when I&#8217;ve realized that for Mormons every person is an incarnation in a sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/woefully-arrayed/#comment-125614</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Mar 2006 13:08:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3013#comment-125614</guid>
		<description>Adam, I like your revision of Skeltonâ€™s Woefully Arrayed better than the original
Yours works much better, in my opinion. Was that intentional? 

No, I was working from memory.  I&#039;m with Edje in liking the original arrangment of &#039;man&#039; and &#039;ran&#039; but preferring &#039;can&#039; to &#039;may,&#039; especially because in modern English &#039;cannot&#039; suggests that it is impossible while &#039;may not&#039; suggests it is forbidden.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam, I like your revision of Skeltonâ€™s Woefully Arrayed better than the original<br />
Yours works much better, in my opinion. Was that intentional? </p>
<p>No, I was working from memory.  I&#8217;m with Edje in liking the original arrangment of &#8216;man&#8217; and &#8216;ran&#8217; but preferring &#8216;can&#8217; to &#8216;may,&#8217; especially because in modern English &#8216;cannot&#8217; suggests that it is impossible while &#8216;may not&#8217; suggests it is forbidden.</p>
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		<title>By: Ariel</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/woefully-arrayed/#comment-125573</link>
		<dc:creator>Ariel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Mar 2006 00:12:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Adam G, are there any particular sources you&#039;d recommend for one wanting to learn from Catholicism? (Or just wanting a deeper understanding of the Passion, from any source?)

We should have more threads like this. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam G, are there any particular sources you&#8217;d recommend for one wanting to learn from Catholicism? (Or just wanting a deeper understanding of the Passion, from any source?)</p>
<p>We should have more threads like this. :)</p>
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		<title>By: Silus Grok</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/woefully-arrayed/#comment-125568</link>
		<dc:creator>Silus Grok</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Mar 2006 23:40:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3013#comment-125568</guid>
		<description>Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Ross Geddes</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/woefully-arrayed/#comment-125553</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross Geddes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Mar 2006 20:52:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3013#comment-125553</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the poem.  It reminded me a little of a poem published years ago in the Ensign, back when they used to have poetry there:

Edward Taylor (c. 1642-1729)
by Rosemary Roberts Petty

I wanted to skip over
Your Verses
Because they were
Religious and
Full of Conceits,
Phrases Archaic,
Rhymes Contrived,
Wordy Puns,
Farfetched Imagery.

I turned back to read again,
and again the pages flipped forward;
but a third time, disciplined, my eyes read
and my mind took in your thoughts.

Pardon,
Dissenter Parson,
Your knowledge of your God
Was so much less than mine
Yet how much more
You loved him!

(Ensign, April 1977, p. 23)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the poem.  It reminded me a little of a poem published years ago in the Ensign, back when they used to have poetry there:</p>
<p>Edward Taylor (c. 1642-1729)<br />
by Rosemary Roberts Petty</p>
<p>I wanted to skip over<br />
Your Verses<br />
Because they were<br />
Religious and<br />
Full of Conceits,<br />
Phrases Archaic,<br />
Rhymes Contrived,<br />
Wordy Puns,<br />
Farfetched Imagery.</p>
<p>I turned back to read again,<br />
and again the pages flipped forward;<br />
but a third time, disciplined, my eyes read<br />
and my mind took in your thoughts.</p>
<p>Pardon,<br />
Dissenter Parson,<br />
Your knowledge of your God<br />
Was so much less than mine<br />
Yet how much more<br />
You loved him!</p>
<p>(Ensign, April 1977, p. 23)</p>
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