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	<title>Comments on: The unspeakable</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/the-unspeakable/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Robert C.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/the-unspeakable/#comment-126278</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Mar 2006 14:03:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3024#comment-126278</guid>
		<description>Wilfried, thanks for the link to your Auschwitz post, it articulated several similar thoughts I&#039;ve had about ways we remember the Holocaust.  I think any great literature necessarily rises above the tendency in baser forms of art and entertainment to demonize &quot;the enemy.&quot;  (I&#039;m a big fan of Dostoevsky&#039;s writing for this reason, he makes you think like Raskolnikov in C&amp;P, he puts you inside the thoughts of Ivan in the Brothers K, showing how each character&#039;s thoughts and actions are related to each other, and how all of humanity is similar, with certain characters only having a bit more of one trait than others....)  Indeed, I think the manner of remembering that you prescribe is in itself a step toward reconciling the antagonism between remembering and forgiving.  

But I&#039;m still left wondering about the forgetting part of forgiving and forgetting.  When I took a tour of Liberty Jail one in our group asked about the blood stain that used to be on the floor.  The tour guide told us that when Pres. Kimball was visiting there and looked at the blood stain, he said it was time to wash it away in a symbolic, bury-the-hatchet type of act (I&#039;d love to know if there&#039;s a more veritable version of this story somewhere; I&#039;d be esp. curious if Pres. Kimball said &quot;it&#039;s time...&quot; or simply &quot;we should...&quot;).  I think this is also related to the the reason that church members traditionally don&#039;t where crosses.  I know it&#039;s like comparing fields of watermelons to one or two peas in mentioning one or two deaths/martyrdoms in a discussion about the Holocaust, I&#039;m just trying to give Mormon examples that suggest forgiving means forgetting in some sense to think more carefully about the tension here....
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wilfried, thanks for the link to your Auschwitz post, it articulated several similar thoughts I&#8217;ve had about ways we remember the Holocaust.  I think any great literature necessarily rises above the tendency in baser forms of art and entertainment to demonize &#8220;the enemy.&#8221;  (I&#8217;m a big fan of Dostoevsky&#8217;s writing for this reason, he makes you think like Raskolnikov in C&amp;P, he puts you inside the thoughts of Ivan in the Brothers K, showing how each character&#8217;s thoughts and actions are related to each other, and how all of humanity is similar, with certain characters only having a bit more of one trait than others&#8230;.)  Indeed, I think the manner of remembering that you prescribe is in itself a step toward reconciling the antagonism between remembering and forgiving.  </p>
<p>But I&#8217;m still left wondering about the forgetting part of forgiving and forgetting.  When I took a tour of Liberty Jail one in our group asked about the blood stain that used to be on the floor.  The tour guide told us that when Pres. Kimball was visiting there and looked at the blood stain, he said it was time to wash it away in a symbolic, bury-the-hatchet type of act (I&#8217;d love to know if there&#8217;s a more veritable version of this story somewhere; I&#8217;d be esp. curious if Pres. Kimball said &#8220;it&#8217;s time&#8230;&#8221; or simply &#8220;we should&#8230;&#8221;).  I think this is also related to the the reason that church members traditionally don&#8217;t where crosses.  I know it&#8217;s like comparing fields of watermelons to one or two peas in mentioning one or two deaths/martyrdoms in a discussion about the Holocaust, I&#8217;m just trying to give Mormon examples that suggest forgiving means forgetting in some sense to think more carefully about the tension here&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Wilfried</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/the-unspeakable/#comment-126232</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilfried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Mar 2006 06:35:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3024#comment-126232</guid>
		<description>DKL, thank you for your remark. But this thread was not meant to be about the history and causes of the Holocaust. Of course I can understand that readers focus their comments on it because the Shoah is so horribly visual and my story tied in with that reality. I recognize threads can go in various directions if one element allows it. 

My post, however, is to highlight the function of the temple in finding peace, whatever the torment we carry in us. My post attempts to better understand the atonement, redemption, expiation, and the healing that comes from reconciliation with oneself and through others. It also tries to open our hearts for those who suffer from their past without us realizing it, because of our own insensivity or ignorance. It tries to convey the message that the unspeakable in us can be spoken if needed for our salvation.

Still, to briefly answer your comment: of course the evil in Nazism and the Holocaust were, in their essence, not a limited phenomenon. In my post on Auschwitz, this is precisely what I stressed once the facts of the period had been reminded. I quoted Schroeder: &quot;The evil of Nazi ideology did not come from a void. The brutalization of thought and the demise of moral inhibitions had a history...&quot; Indeed, antisemitism, or any form of racism, comes from far. But my aim was not to go into that long and complex history, but to broaden to the present and the future, apply it to us, and to illlustrate how close the Beast, in various forms, is still with us. It could be helpful to reread &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=1898&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the last part of that post&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DKL, thank you for your remark. But this thread was not meant to be about the history and causes of the Holocaust. Of course I can understand that readers focus their comments on it because the Shoah is so horribly visual and my story tied in with that reality. I recognize threads can go in various directions if one element allows it. </p>
<p>My post, however, is to highlight the function of the temple in finding peace, whatever the torment we carry in us. My post attempts to better understand the atonement, redemption, expiation, and the healing that comes from reconciliation with oneself and through others. It also tries to open our hearts for those who suffer from their past without us realizing it, because of our own insensivity or ignorance. It tries to convey the message that the unspeakable in us can be spoken if needed for our salvation.</p>
<p>Still, to briefly answer your comment: of course the evil in Nazism and the Holocaust were, in their essence, not a limited phenomenon. In my post on Auschwitz, this is precisely what I stressed once the facts of the period had been reminded. I quoted Schroeder: &#8220;The evil of Nazi ideology did not come from a void. The brutalization of thought and the demise of moral inhibitions had a history&#8230;&#8221; Indeed, antisemitism, or any form of racism, comes from far. But my aim was not to go into that long and complex history, but to broaden to the present and the future, apply it to us, and to illlustrate how close the Beast, in various forms, is still with us. It could be helpful to reread <a href="http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=1898" rel="nofollow">the last part of that post</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: DKL</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/the-unspeakable/#comment-126227</link>
		<dc:creator>DKL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Mar 2006 05:21:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3024#comment-126227</guid>
		<description>Wilfried, I think that your discussion of the development of the Nazi propaganda is too local. To paraphrase what Bushman said about Joseph Smith at the Library of Congress conference, localizing the development of Nazism and the holocaust to early twentieth-century Germany diminishes it. The holocaust was the culmination of centuries of European anti-semitism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wilfried, I think that your discussion of the development of the Nazi propaganda is too local. To paraphrase what Bushman said about Joseph Smith at the Library of Congress conference, localizing the development of Nazism and the holocaust to early twentieth-century Germany diminishes it. The holocaust was the culmination of centuries of European anti-semitism.</p>
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		<title>By: DKL</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/the-unspeakable/#comment-126224</link>
		<dc:creator>DKL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Mar 2006 05:05:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3024#comment-126224</guid>
		<description>Robert, I highly recommend reading the book.  A recurrent theme throughout the autobiographical meta-narrative portion of &lt;i&gt;Maus&lt;/i&gt; is the conflict between Art and his father. Art&#039;s father has mixed feelings about telling the story. For him, the holocaust is personal, and he&#039;s not sure he wants his personal memories served up to the world as a morality tale or as a tragedy or as a spectacle for public consumption. He&#039;s a practical man who doesn&#039;t seem to have much patience for Art&#039;s abstract moralizing. It&#039;s as though a part of Art&#039;s father wants to say, &quot;Yes, I went through the holocaust. Now leave me alone already!&quot; Art feels this conflict, and it seems to inform the conflict he portrays himself having over his own Jewishness; viz., is he an authentic jew, or is he just playing one to tell a story? 

annegb, just to clarify, Spiegelman isn&#039;t Mormon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert, I highly recommend reading the book.  A recurrent theme throughout the autobiographical meta-narrative portion of <i>Maus</i> is the conflict between Art and his father. Art&#8217;s father has mixed feelings about telling the story. For him, the holocaust is personal, and he&#8217;s not sure he wants his personal memories served up to the world as a morality tale or as a tragedy or as a spectacle for public consumption. He&#8217;s a practical man who doesn&#8217;t seem to have much patience for Art&#8217;s abstract moralizing. It&#8217;s as though a part of Art&#8217;s father wants to say, &#8220;Yes, I went through the holocaust. Now leave me alone already!&#8221; Art feels this conflict, and it seems to inform the conflict he portrays himself having over his own Jewishness; viz., is he an authentic jew, or is he just playing one to tell a story? </p>
<p>annegb, just to clarify, Spiegelman isn&#8217;t Mormon.</p>
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		<title>By: Wilfried</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/the-unspeakable/#comment-126192</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilfried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Mar 2006 03:13:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3024#comment-126192</guid>
		<description>Thank you, Robert C (29). The antagonism between the obligation to remember (in order to avoid repetition) and the duty to forgive (and forget) is indeed at the heart of much discussion surrounding the Holocaust. 

When remembering Auschwitz &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=1898&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;in another post&lt;/a&gt; I found it useful to ask myself the question &quot;Could I have been a Nazi?&quot; As I tried to show, it is easy to imagine one could have become a Nazi, like in the early thirties in Germany, at a harmless level first, given the right circumstances and the right propaganda. But then the next level could follow, because most of us, if not all, carry the Beast in us, eager to be awakened. I felt that this consciousness of our dangerous potential helps to be on guard and to remember how the temptation of extremism looms. At the same time this consciousness helps us to understand the past and show compassion, and hopefully forgiveness, for those who fell in the trap. Indeed, I could have been one of them, now pleading for forgiveness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Robert C (29). The antagonism between the obligation to remember (in order to avoid repetition) and the duty to forgive (and forget) is indeed at the heart of much discussion surrounding the Holocaust. </p>
<p>When remembering Auschwitz <a href="http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=1898" rel="nofollow">in another post</a> I found it useful to ask myself the question &#8220;Could I have been a Nazi?&#8221; As I tried to show, it is easy to imagine one could have become a Nazi, like in the early thirties in Germany, at a harmless level first, given the right circumstances and the right propaganda. But then the next level could follow, because most of us, if not all, carry the Beast in us, eager to be awakened. I felt that this consciousness of our dangerous potential helps to be on guard and to remember how the temptation of extremism looms. At the same time this consciousness helps us to understand the past and show compassion, and hopefully forgiveness, for those who fell in the trap. Indeed, I could have been one of them, now pleading for forgiveness.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert C.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/the-unspeakable/#comment-126179</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Mar 2006 02:41:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3024#comment-126179</guid>
		<description>Thanks DKL for explaining how you connected &lt;i&gt;Maus&lt;/i&gt; to this thread.  I read a review about &lt;i&gt;Maus&lt;/i&gt; describing a scene where the son berates his father for destroying his mother&#039;s writings that described her experiences and suffering during the Holocaust, because forgetting evil is tantamount to accepting evil and will lead to repititions of more evil.  Although the reviewer was praising the book for this reason, it seemed to me a less profound theme than that of reconciliation which Wilfried has addressed so beautifully here....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks DKL for explaining how you connected <i>Maus</i> to this thread.  I read a review about <i>Maus</i> describing a scene where the son berates his father for destroying his mother&#8217;s writings that described her experiences and suffering during the Holocaust, because forgetting evil is tantamount to accepting evil and will lead to repititions of more evil.  Although the reviewer was praising the book for this reason, it seemed to me a less profound theme than that of reconciliation which Wilfried has addressed so beautifully here&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim F.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/the-unspeakable/#comment-126163</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Mar 2006 02:14:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3024#comment-126163</guid>
		<description>annegb (#26): more power to those who continue to use the subjunctive and to do so correctly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>annegb (#26): more power to those who continue to use the subjunctive and to do so correctly.</p>
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		<title>By: annegb</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/the-unspeakable/#comment-126162</link>
		<dc:creator>annegb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Mar 2006 02:08:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3024#comment-126162</guid>
		<description>Oh, and Wilfried, I try to show Bill your posts so he doesn&#039;t think I&#039;m doing evil things on line.  He is summarily impressed.

The rest of you, my dirty little secret. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and Wilfried, I try to show Bill your posts so he doesn&#8217;t think I&#8217;m doing evil things on line.  He is summarily impressed.</p>
<p>The rest of you, my dirty little secret. :)</p>
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		<title>By: annegb</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/the-unspeakable/#comment-126154</link>
		<dc:creator>annegb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Mar 2006 01:48:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3024#comment-126154</guid>
		<description>But David, the very same thought struck me as I read Wilfried&#039;s post, I think your point was valid.  I saw a hardcover book of Maus yesterday in the bookstore, so it may have been at the back of my mind.  You are right, the use of comics and mice, etc. to portray the story made it more stark for me.

I didn&#039;t know the guy who wrote it was a Mormon.  I thought Maus was a German word for mouse, which weren&#039;t the Jews mice?

Wilfried, I love what you say about taking God out of it for awhile.  I think He&#039;s totally okay with that.  I think He understands that some things take time to deal with and understand.  I would, if I were God.

Q:  is &quot;if I&quot; always subjunctive, or am I driving everybody crazy?  Thus were, I mean.  Not was.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But David, the very same thought struck me as I read Wilfried&#8217;s post, I think your point was valid.  I saw a hardcover book of Maus yesterday in the bookstore, so it may have been at the back of my mind.  You are right, the use of comics and mice, etc. to portray the story made it more stark for me.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t know the guy who wrote it was a Mormon.  I thought Maus was a German word for mouse, which weren&#8217;t the Jews mice?</p>
<p>Wilfried, I love what you say about taking God out of it for awhile.  I think He&#8217;s totally okay with that.  I think He understands that some things take time to deal with and understand.  I would, if I were God.</p>
<p>Q:  is &#8220;if I&#8221; always subjunctive, or am I driving everybody crazy?  Thus were, I mean.  Not was.</p>
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		<title>By: jjohnsen</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/the-unspeakable/#comment-126152</link>
		<dc:creator>jjohnsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Mar 2006 01:41:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3024#comment-126152</guid>
		<description>Wilfried, as usual your tale has made me well up a bit.  Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wilfried, as usual your tale has made me well up a bit.  Thank you.</p>
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