Comments on: Prophecy vs. History http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/prophecy-vs-history/ Truth Will Prevail Thu, 24 May 2012 14:21:34 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Gail L. Porritt http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/prophecy-vs-history/#comment-125935 Gail L. Porritt Mon, 27 Mar 2006 22:31:46 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3014#comment-125935 John, My apologies if I misread, I am glad you think Diamond “rocks�. It must have been the Talmage/Roberts quote “and of the two prophecy is more to be trusted for its accuracy than history� that began to lead me astray; a statement I find not only religiously self-serving, but also ludicrous at the core, particularly coming from Roberts who should have known better. Mormonism has done an extremely poor job of accurately presenting its history and demonstrating the veracity of its prophetic voice. It is in most cases the outside, or heretical, voice that has forced objectivity into Mormon story telling. Joseph Smith was an American religious amazement, but in order for him to be a prophet we must do serious damage to the commonly held Mormon definition of the word. He got too many things wrong and told too many obvious lies to hold true to the purity of our perceived definition. We mostly hold him in reverence for those things he gave us that are not verifiable and we graciously tend to ignore, or hide, those that disappoint. A simple example from the 1834-5 Patriarchal Blessing book: "The following blessings, by the spirit of prophecy, were pronounced by Joseph Smith, Jr...These blessings were given by vision and the spirit of prophecy, on the 18th of December, 1833, and written by my own [Oliver Cowdery] hand at the time; and I know them to be correct and according to the mind of the Lord...Thus spake the Seer, and these are the words which fell from his lips while the visions of the Almighty were open to his view, saying: "...Blessed of the Lord is my brother Hyrum...he shall be hid by the hand of the Lord that none of his secret parts shall be discovered by his enemies, unto his hurt...his acquaintance shall be among kings, and he shall be sought for that he may sit in council, by nations and kings that are afar off...Behold he shall be blessed with an abundance of riches of the earth: gold, silver, and treasures of precious stones, of diamonds and platina. His chariots shall be numerous, and his cattle shall multiply abundantly: horses, mules, asses, camels, dromedaries, and swift beasts..." "Blessed of the Lord is brother Samuel...He shall have an abundance of [the] good things of the earth, for he shall possess great wealth, while he lives...and the earth to bring forth in her glorious apparel, yielding her strength for the sustenance of man, by his warming influence; so shall the voice of Samuel be to the hearts of those that shall seek counsel at his hand in his old age… " “Blessed of the Lord is brother Carlos…[he] shall be called to stand in legislative bodies, and confront the errors of rulers and kings, to their face, and they shall reverence him because of the greatness of his understanding and his nobility of soul…It shall be his lot to stand among the nobles of the earth: and the burden of his influence, over the inhabitants of the earth…among foreign nations shall the power of his wealth extend, even to kingdoms afar off…� A blessing may be more of a hope than anything else, but even a hope should be somewhat based in reality, especially when claimed to be received in open vision by the prophetic head of a dispensation. 19th century Mormonism, as with numerous other charismatic religions, has serious difficulty demonstrating the authenticity of its prophetic voice, which it frequently tends to hide and edit in its historical tellings. Hardly the practice of choice for simple seekers of truth. John,
My apologies if I misread, I am glad you think Diamond “rocks�. It must have been the Talmage/Roberts quote “and of the two prophecy is more to be trusted for its accuracy than history� that began to lead me astray; a statement I find not only religiously self-serving, but also ludicrous at the core, particularly coming from Roberts who should have known better. Mormonism has done an extremely poor job of accurately presenting its history and demonstrating the veracity of its prophetic voice. It is in most cases the outside, or heretical, voice that has forced objectivity into Mormon story telling. Joseph Smith was an American religious amazement, but in order for him to be a prophet we must do serious damage to the commonly held Mormon definition of the word. He got too many things wrong and told too many obvious lies to hold true to the purity of our perceived definition. We mostly hold him in reverence for those things he gave us that are not verifiable and we graciously tend to ignore, or hide, those that disappoint. A simple example from the 1834-5 Patriarchal Blessing book:

“The following blessings, by the spirit of prophecy, were pronounced by Joseph Smith, Jr…These blessings were given by vision and the spirit of prophecy, on the 18th of December, 1833, and written by my own [Oliver Cowdery] hand at the time; and I know them to be correct and according to the mind of the Lord…Thus spake the Seer, and these are the words which fell from his lips while the visions of the Almighty were open to his view, saying:

“…Blessed of the Lord is my brother Hyrum…he shall be hid by the hand of the Lord that none of his secret parts shall be discovered by his enemies, unto his hurt…his acquaintance shall be among kings, and he shall be sought for that he may sit in council, by nations and kings that are afar off…Behold he shall be blessed with an abundance of riches of the earth: gold, silver, and treasures of precious stones, of diamonds and platina. His chariots shall be numerous, and his cattle shall multiply abundantly: horses, mules, asses, camels, dromedaries, and swift beasts…”

“Blessed of the Lord is brother Samuel…He shall have an abundance of [the] good things of the earth, for he shall possess great wealth, while he lives…and the earth to bring forth in her glorious apparel, yielding her strength for the sustenance of man, by his warming influence; so shall the voice of Samuel be to the hearts of those that shall seek counsel at his hand in his old age… ”

“Blessed of the Lord is brother Carlos…[he] shall be called to stand in legislative bodies, and confront the errors of rulers and kings, to their face, and they shall reverence him because of the greatness of his understanding and his nobility of soul…It shall be his lot to stand among the nobles of the earth: and the burden of his influence, over the inhabitants of the earth…among foreign nations shall the power of his wealth extend, even to kingdoms afar off…�

A blessing may be more of a hope than anything else, but even a hope should be somewhat based in reality, especially when claimed to be received in open vision by the prophetic head of a dispensation. 19th century Mormonism, as with numerous other charismatic religions, has serious difficulty demonstrating the authenticity of its prophetic voice, which it frequently tends to hide and edit in its historical tellings. Hardly the practice of choice for simple seekers of truth.

]]> By: Kingsley http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/prophecy-vs-history/#comment-125786 Kingsley Mon, 27 Mar 2006 07:22:26 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3014#comment-125786 Vogel wherever you are, sweating at your computer and mouthing your clumsy typed words, your book provided me with more laughts than _The Onion_, congrats. Vogel wherever you are, sweating at your computer and mouthing your clumsy typed words, your book provided me with more laughts than _The Onion_, congrats.

]]> By: Kingsley http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/prophecy-vs-history/#comment-125785 Kingsley Mon, 27 Mar 2006 07:20:43 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3014#comment-125785 Here I am on a drunken tear. Read Joseph, read the accounts of those who brushed up against him, including his enemies. Then read his historians, including believers. Who am I to trust? The men and women who loved and hated him in the flesh, or professional intellectuals 100 + years later? Brodie gets Joseph better (so, again, does Bloom) than Bushman, simply because they allow themselves to go wild, and Joseph demands wildness and not this careful sensitivity for those those who laugh at angels. And then you have Vogel, good God. Nitwit. Vogel, cast up against Joseph, is the proverbial fly on the horse's arse. It's depressing, angels are flying down from the heavens with wild glad messages and we get these careful posturing accounts. Here I am on a drunken tear. Read Joseph, read the accounts of those who brushed up against him, including his enemies. Then read his historians, including believers. Who am I to trust? The men and women who loved and hated him in the flesh, or professional intellectuals 100 + years later? Brodie gets Joseph better (so, again, does Bloom) than Bushman, simply because they allow themselves to go wild, and Joseph demands wildness and not this careful sensitivity for those those who laugh at angels. And then you have Vogel, good God. Nitwit. Vogel, cast up against Joseph, is the proverbial fly on the horse’s arse. It’s depressing, angels are flying down from the heavens with wild glad messages and we get these careful posturing accounts.

]]> By: Kingsley http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/prophecy-vs-history/#comment-125783 Kingsley Mon, 27 Mar 2006 07:12:40 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3014#comment-125783 Same goes for Bushman. Fine book, beautiful even, but read the journals and letters and the pathetic cliche of the tortured genius does not come through. Nibley is still our best reader of Joseph, simply because he reads him. Bloom reads Joseph better than Bushman. Same goes for Bushman. Fine book, beautiful even, but read the journals and letters and the pathetic cliche of the tortured genius does not come through. Nibley is still our best reader of Joseph, simply because he reads him. Bloom reads Joseph better than Bushman.

]]> By: Kingsley http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/prophecy-vs-history/#comment-125782 Kingsley Mon, 27 Mar 2006 07:08:47 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3014#comment-125782 Go to Barlow's fine book, _Mormons and the Bible_, and read his take on Joseph's Moroni vision (i.e. he gradually came to think of it as literal), which Givens accepts uncritically in _By the Hand of Mormon_, and then go to Joseph's journals, and good God. All hail Freud. Joseph wrote one thing, even believing historians write another, sophistication oozing from their pores. Pathetic. Go to Barlow’s fine book, _Mormons and the Bible_, and read his take on Joseph’s Moroni vision (i.e. he gradually came to think of it as literal), which Givens accepts uncritically in _By the Hand of Mormon_, and then go to Joseph’s journals, and good God. All hail Freud. Joseph wrote one thing, even believing historians write another, sophistication oozing from their pores. Pathetic.

]]> By: john f. http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/prophecy-vs-history/#comment-125741 john f. Sun, 26 Mar 2006 20:40:54 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3014#comment-125741 DKL, the thing that struck me upon re-reading the B.H. Roberts quote recently was that it presents a false dichotomy. I think that your comment #26 demonstrates why. This does not lessen the idea that we can rely on the truthfulness and accuracy of prophecy communicated to us through a seer. However, the idea of accurate prophecy raises a question for me about the contingent nature of prophecy. That is, much prophecy is actually in the form of "if/then" warnings. If you do not repent or obey, then X. This contingency would seem to prevent prophecy from being a reliable predictor upon which to base current perception. The certainty of punishment failing obedience remains, but the possibility that we can change the outcome through our actions creates much uncertainty. DKL, the thing that struck me upon re-reading the B.H. Roberts quote recently was that it presents a false dichotomy. I think that your comment #26 demonstrates why. This does not lessen the idea that we can rely on the truthfulness and accuracy of prophecy communicated to us through a seer. However, the idea of accurate prophecy raises a question for me about the contingent nature of prophecy. That is, much prophecy is actually in the form of “if/then” warnings. If you do not repent or obey, then X. This contingency would seem to prevent prophecy from being a reliable predictor upon which to base current perception. The certainty of punishment failing obedience remains, but the possibility that we can change the outcome through our actions creates much uncertainty.

]]> By: DKL http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/prophecy-vs-history/#comment-125738 DKL Sun, 26 Mar 2006 20:24:53 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3014#comment-125738 john f, I guess my point is that the types of things that are normally identified as "the fallibility of history" are more aptly categorized as "the transparency of history." Moreover, the question arises about exactly what constitutes a fulfillment of prophecy. This business of prophecy fulfillment can have a certain <i>1984</i>/Big Brother/group think feeling about it. In <i>1984</i>, the protagonist notes that people never notice when the prevalent opinion changes due to propaganda--the current truth is accepted as what has always been the truth, no matter how often it has changed. Take as an example the Civil War prophecy. Joseph Smith made this prophecy at a time of apparently imminent rebellion in the southern states. The rebellion never materialized and the prophecy was basically set aside. Then the Civil War broke out, and the revelation was resuscitated and canonized. In retrospect, it's obvious to us all that the prophecy was about the rebellion that Lincoln precipitated in the months immediately preceding and following his inaugeration. But until that point, it was just one more defunct Smithian forecast. I think that it's arguable that there is no terribly important way in which this prophecy is "more accurate" than history unless it is to re-iterate the Aristotelian principle that given enough time, all possibilities are realized; and to add that hindsight is 20/20. john f, I guess my point is that the types of things that are normally identified as “the fallibility of history” are more aptly categorized as “the transparency of history.”

Moreover, the question arises about exactly what constitutes a fulfillment of prophecy. This business of prophecy fulfillment can have a certain 1984/Big Brother/group think feeling about it. In 1984, the protagonist notes that people never notice when the prevalent opinion changes due to propaganda–the current truth is accepted as what has always been the truth, no matter how often it has changed. Take as an example the Civil War prophecy. Joseph Smith made this prophecy at a time of apparently imminent rebellion in the southern states. The rebellion never materialized and the prophecy was basically set aside. Then the Civil War broke out, and the revelation was resuscitated and canonized. In retrospect, it’s obvious to us all that the prophecy was about the rebellion that Lincoln precipitated in the months immediately preceding and following his inaugeration. But until that point, it was just one more defunct Smithian forecast. I think that it’s arguable that there is no terribly important way in which this prophecy is “more accurate” than history unless it is to re-iterate the Aristotelian principle that given enough time, all possibilities are realized; and to add that hindsight is 20/20.

]]> By: mullingandmusing (m&m) http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/prophecy-vs-history/#comment-125736 mullingandmusing (m&m) Sun, 26 Mar 2006 19:27:39 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3014#comment-125736 <i>M&M, thank you for that great insight. That enriches my view of the Book of Mormon as well. I think we can say that many of the BoM prophets were indeed seers. Through the seer power BoM prophets were able to translate and to know of hidden things, such as the translation of the Jaredite plates and Nephi son of Helaman’s revelation of who had assassinated the chief judge. </i> Yes. What I was trying to articulate goes beyond these obvious ways in which we knew they were seers. I am starting to wonder if maybe they WROTE what they wrote as seers...writing forward, wth us in mind, seeing forward...with the history, backward-looking part of their narrative only as a backdrop. If Mormon saw our day, I imagine all of what he included and abridged was with that in mind. "What can/should I include that will benefit people 2000 years after Christ is born?" Nephi saw the whole panarama of all generations of time. So did Lehi, I assume. Surely that had a tremendous impact on what was included. Also, if the Lord was repeatedly whispering about the "wise purpose" of the plates, and promising that they would be preserved, and commanding what should and should not be included, that He might have been more involved than I had ever really thought in the whole writing of the record. If my gut feelings are correct, these men were doing much, much more than just, say, writing in their journals. And, if they were using the U&T (multiple instances in the scriptures show that whoever had the urim and thummim USED it -- e.g., Moses, Abraham, brother of Jared, Mosiah...), then is it possible what they should write was literally revealed to them (at least sometimes)??... maybe even something like how the BoM translation was revealed to JS? Even if they didn't use the U&T, I am finding more and more that confirms this idea that the Lord was intricately involved in at least some of the writing. I would assume that was the pattern more often than not. I'm starting to think that instead of books being called by the names of the writers, the whole thing should be "Book of the Lord," chapter such-and-such. :) Ah. In my searching tonite, I found this (of course, I have read this only about a million times...never ceases to amaze me what I haven't SEEN before): 2 Nephi 33:10 10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for <i>they are the words of Christ, <b>and he hath given them unto me</b></i>; and they teach all men that they should do good. 2 Nephi 33:11 11 And if they are not <i>the words of Christ</i>, judge ye--for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that <i>they are his words</i>, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that <i>I have been commanded of him to write these things,</i> notwithstanding my weakness. This concept of being commanded to write certain things shows up several times, with different writers. I was struck esp. with the phrase from Nephi, "he hath given them unto me." Anyway, I'm finding this all very interesting and quite exciting! M&M, thank you for that great insight. That enriches my view of the Book of Mormon as well. I think we can say that many of the BoM prophets were indeed seers. Through the seer power BoM prophets were able to translate and to know of hidden things, such as the translation of the Jaredite plates and Nephi son of Helaman’s revelation of who had assassinated the chief judge.

Yes. What I was trying to articulate goes beyond these obvious ways in which we knew they were seers. I am starting to wonder if maybe they WROTE what they wrote as seers…writing forward, wth us in mind, seeing forward…with the history, backward-looking part of their narrative only as a backdrop. If Mormon saw our day, I imagine all of what he included and abridged was with that in mind. “What can/should I include that will benefit people 2000 years after Christ is born?” Nephi saw the whole panarama of all generations of time. So did Lehi, I assume. Surely that had a tremendous impact on what was included. Also, if the Lord was repeatedly whispering about the “wise purpose” of the plates, and promising that they would be preserved, and commanding what should and should not be included, that He might have been more involved than I had ever really thought in the whole writing of the record. If my gut feelings are correct, these men were doing much, much more than just, say, writing in their journals. And, if they were using the U&T (multiple instances in the scriptures show that whoever had the urim and thummim USED it — e.g., Moses, Abraham, brother of Jared, Mosiah…), then is it possible what they should write was literally revealed to them (at least sometimes)??… maybe even something like how the BoM translation was revealed to JS? Even if they didn’t use the U&T, I am finding more and more that confirms this idea that the Lord was intricately involved in at least some of the writing. I would assume that was the pattern more often than not. I’m starting to think that instead of books being called by the names of the writers, the whole thing should be “Book of the Lord,” chapter such-and-such. :)

Ah. In my searching tonite, I found this (of course, I have read this only about a million times…never ceases to amaze me what I haven’t SEEN before):

2 Nephi 33:10
10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.
2 Nephi 33:11
11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye–for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.

This concept of being commanded to write certain things shows up several times, with different writers. I was struck esp. with the phrase from Nephi, “he hath given them unto me.” Anyway, I’m finding this all very interesting and quite exciting!

]]> By: john f. http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/prophecy-vs-history/#comment-125661 john f. Sun, 26 Mar 2006 02:48:40 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3014#comment-125661 Brad, you have raised some interesting points in this discussion that are well worth considering. It is an insightful middle position between historicity-supporters and inspired-fiction supporters. It shifts the blame of "fudging" from Joseph Smith to Mormon and Moroni (sparing perhaps even Nephi et al.) That is an interesting point given Moroni's disclaimer that "And if there be faults they be the faults of a man. But behold, we know no fault; nevertheless God knoweth all things; therefore, he that condemneth, let him be aware lest he shall be in danger of hell fire" (<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/morm/8/17#17" rel="nofollow">Mormon 8:17</a>). M&M, thank you for that great insight. That enriches my view of the Book of Mormon as well. I think we can say that many of the BoM prophets were indeed seers. Through the seer power BoM prophets were able to translate and to know of hidden things, such as the translation of the Jaredite plates and Nephi son of Helaman's revelation of who had assassinated the chief judge. Brad, you have raised some interesting points in this discussion that are well worth considering. It is an insightful middle position between historicity-supporters and inspired-fiction supporters. It shifts the blame of “fudging” from Joseph Smith to Mormon and Moroni (sparing perhaps even Nephi et al.) That is an interesting point given Moroni’s disclaimer that “And if there be faults they be the faults of a man. But behold, we know no fault; nevertheless God knoweth all things; therefore, he that condemneth, let him be aware lest he shall be in danger of hell fire” (Mormon 8:17).

M&M, thank you for that great insight. That enriches my view of the Book of Mormon as well. I think we can say that many of the BoM prophets were indeed seers. Through the seer power BoM prophets were able to translate and to know of hidden things, such as the translation of the Jaredite plates and Nephi son of Helaman’s revelation of who had assassinated the chief judge.

]]> By: john f. http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/prophecy-vs-history/#comment-125659 john f. Sun, 26 Mar 2006 02:33:29 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3014#comment-125659 Gail, I think you misunderstood my post. Diamond rocks. Gail, I think you misunderstood my post.

Diamond rocks.

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