http://www.timesandseasons.org/archives/000990.html

I know you didn’t say that. I was referring to Nate’s theory there.

Thanks for your post. Helps me understand better. Sorry for misunderstanding. :)

I said nothing of statues or art, so I’m not sure what your point is.”

I know you said nothing about statues and paintings. Here is my point: the Powers That Be not only do not want a person to wear a beard, they want to rewrite history so that one who had no knowledge about Brigham Young would think that he was always clean shaven. Kind of reminds me of the Soviet Union rewriting history texts and retouching photos to either add or “delete” a person in historical photos, i.e., a person seen standing on Lenin’s tomb on May Day who would be erased from the photo in later editions of history books when they fell out of favor.

Come to think of it, the Powers That Be did something like this to the Priesthood text on Brigham Young a few years ago, leading some people to believe that BY must have been monogamous!

My second full paragraph in #79 makes the temporal=spiritual connection you expound. I’m not saying that any commandment is trivial but I’m saying that, in some cases, the reason they are not trivial largely is because of the spiritual effects on us of keeping them or not. I agree that wearing white shirts to church (which I do regularly) is important, but maybe the importance comes from how obeying this counsel helps to perfect our natures and *maybe* not because white per se matters in shirt color. I’m willing to consider that white may be important per se, but I’m grabbing this as an example of my point that the importance of some earthly commandments comes from the effect our obedience has, not their intrinsic validity.

I did not seriously mean that BYU’s HC or any other guidance from the Church is intended to be disobeyed. Rather, I see these, and more important (Your quotation of Elder Nelson’s citation of Matt 5:19 “one of these least commandments� allows supposition of greater-than-these-least commandments) commandments as things which God in the premortal sphere knew we would disobey – which is why the atonement was included in the Father’s plan in the pre-mortal council. I dare to suppose that Church leaders, BYU administrators, parents, and the guy in the next dorm room also anticipate people will not keep perfectly the HC. I’m saying that our wrestling with the HC helps us to develop the nature that will keep greater commandments as well – part of that probation/repent/learn-to-obey thing in 2 Ne 2:21.

I also agree with your analysis of how we become converted: that obedience alone won’t change us nearly as much as the Lord changing our nature through the Spirit as we strive to obey and plead for that change. I spent most of today thinking that was an important omission from my earlier posting.

Your comments about obeying for the right reason – *not* to put items on a spiritual resume – echo what I intended to show by including Elder Oaks’s comment that, “It is not enough for anyone just to go through the motions. The commandments, ordinances, and covenants of the gospel are not a list of deposits required to be made in some heavenly account.�

RE: your comment, “So, you can see, maenan, that I am having a really hard time reconciling your beautiful testimony of grace (on one hand seeming to accept and acknowledge that *all* commandments have a place in the gospel process) with the minimizing of some commandments by labeling them as “trivial� or “artificial� or “temporal� or “physical.� Remember that all things are spiritual to God. I think it would serve us well to seek for understanding of spiritual purpose in even the seemingly smaller commandments in light of what He says about His commandments. Obedience (if done for the right reasons) at ANY level invites the Spirit, which, again, is the very key to becoming changed,� I’m surprised that you took my comments to mean that. Again, my point is specifically that all commandments are important/spiritual because they’re given by God or his representatives, even those that would be trivial, artificial, etc if given by just me or by you. The fact that God so says makes an otherwise trivial matter important because this moves it from personal preference to bending our will to God’s, even when/if he gives something only for the purpose of teaching us to do obey him – think bathing 7X in the Jordan River instead of doing something that would appear more reasonable for a cure. This complements my comments about grace because both point to our own nothingness, which we must remember in order to be filled with God’s love and to retain a remission of our sins (see Msh 4:11-12).

I appreciate the quotation from Elder Oaks about conversion. One of my favorites is from Marion G. Romney, “A testimony comes when the Holy Ghost gives the earnest seeker a witness of truth. A moving testimony vitalizes faith; that is, it induces repentance and obedience to the commandments. Conversion, on the other hand, is the fruit of, or the reward for, repentance and obedience. […] [Someone] may be assured of it when by the power of the Holy Spirit his soul is healed. When this occurs, he will recognize it by the way he feels, for he will feel as the people of Benjamin felt when they received remission of sins. The record says, ‘ . . . the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins, and having peace of conscience…. ‘ (Mosiah 4:3.)â€? (GenCon 10/1963, underline added). I like this because after repentance and renewal, it describes how I feel: my soul is healed by the Holy Ghost. It’s a deeper example of the change of nature that comes through the Holy Ghost as we strive to repent and obey even in the most *seeming* trivial matters.

What strikes me as curious is the great disparity between ‘little honor code rules’ at the Provo and Idaho campuses. BYU-Idaho honor code has some rules that are quiet ridiculous in my mind. However, I truly and fully admire and support my friends that strive to keep those rules.

In response to # 35: I expect that in coming years there will be small adjustments to the Honor code, as there has been in the past. (When I was in Provo I used to think it would be cool to go up to Rexburg and have a bonfire of prohibited items on campus – shorts, overalls and such. But I decided that wasn’t the proper avenue for change at that university.)

I used to wonder if positive change at BYU is squelched at it’s early stages for fear of destroying the sanctity of the University. This is a valid concern since many major Universities in the US have rejected the religious and theological backgrounds on which they were founded. Hopefully, as the BYU administration becomes more diverse they will be more willing entertain changes that are important to the students, whilst retaining the religious sanctity of the University.

Elder Nelson: “The Apostle Paul warned of the lethal wages of sin (see Rom. 6:23), but the Savior didn’t limit His caution to major transgression. He specifically warned against breaking ‘one of these least commandments’ (Matt. 5:19). His admonitions were meant to protect and preserve our precious integrity.” (Russell M. Nelson, “Integrity of Heart,â€? Ensign, Aug. 1995, 19)

(This is also why I don’t agree with Nate’s theory that some rules are created to be deliberately broken. Deliberate disobedience and rebellion does not create a soul-environment that is conducive to the conversion about which Elder Oaks talks.)

How do we become converted and changed? Elder Oaks says: “In teaching the Nephites, the Savior referred to what they must become. He challenged them to repent and be baptized and be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, ‘that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day’ (3 Ne. 27:20). He concluded: ‘Therefore, what manner of men ought ye to be? Verily I say unto you, even as I am’ (3 Ne. 27:27).
“The gospel of Jesus Christ is the plan by which we can become what children of God are supposed to become. This spotless and perfected state will result from a steady succession of covenants, ordinances, and actions, an accumulation of right choices, and from continuing repentance. ‘This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God’ (Alma 34:32). This is achieved not just by doing what is right, but by doing it for the right reason—for the pure love of Christ.”

If you look at what Elder Oaks says about HOW to become converted, it is by DOING things for the right reasons — the right heart and desires. It is through *what* we do, and because of *why* we do it — not to add to a spiritual resume, but because we want to be like Christ (obedient, humble and submissive) and come unto Him. While you are right that our obedience alone can’t change us, obedience IS key to the *Lord* being able to change us. If we obey willingly, the Spirit can enter into our lives — and the Spirit is what changes our natures. The Atonement’s grace is activated in our lives through the Holy Ghost. We are sanctified through the Spirit. This is why I think it is impossible to imagine the leaders making a decision to create rules that seem to give permission for rebellion — because they know rebellion drives away the Spirit. Even with small things. And this is why I am such a supporter of students following the HC, because I believe even the small things, if done for the right reasons, can bring the Spirit into their lives (ESPECIALLY when their integrity is also involved). I also believe most of the HC is applicable to the Church in general (minus a few specifics on beards and hair length and such.)

SO, we are converted as we obey — because that is what people who love the Lord do. We trust and obey the prophets because the Lord ordained them to guide us, even in the little things. We don’t dismiss those ‘little’ things as insignificant, or look for reasons not to obey, because almost without exception, they 1) help protect from more serious sin (e.g., modesty and WoW help protect against unchastity) and/or 2) help prepare for more significant obedience (e.g., tithing as a sacrifice helps prepare for consecration, and 3) they give us a chance to show our love to God and thus receive His Spirit and other spiritual blessings.

So, if the leaders say, “White shirts at church” or “No beards at BYU” or “One earring for women, please” or “Move to Missouri” — WHATEVER they ask (“small” or “big”), we will obey because we love the Lord. Not because we want to put it on our spiritual resume, but because we want to show our love to the Lord. In return, He gives us His Spirit, who changes our natures.

Nephi (in 2 Ne. 28) warns us that the adversary works by trying to get us to excuse little sins. He can only get us that way, usually, because most of us won’t just jump into a big sin. He cheats our souls by making us think that little things don’t matter. Elder Nelson: “We cannot commit a little sin without being subject to the consequences. If we tolerate a little sin today, we tolerate a little more tomorrow, and before long, a cord of integrity is broken. Sequential stress will follow, putting adjacent cords at risk….”

So, you can see, maenan, that I am having a really hard time reconciling your beautiful testimony of grace (on one hand seeming to accept and acknowledge that *all* commandments have a place in the gospel process) with the minimizing of some commandments by labeling them as “trivial” or “artificial” or “temporal” or “physical.” Remember that all things are spiritual to God. I think it would serve us well to seek for understanding of spiritual purpose in even the seemingly smaller commandments in light of what He says about His commandments. Obedience (if done for the right reasons) at ANY level invites the Spirit, which, again, is the very key to becoming changed.

Elder Oaks said that one way we can know if we are converted is that we would “have the mind of Christ” (1 Cor. 2:16). Elder Oaks then says, “I understand this to mean that persons who are proceeding toward the needed conversion are beginning to see things as our Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, see them. They are hearing His voice instead of the voice of the world, and they are doing things in His way instead of by the ways of the world.” The Lord’s voice to His church comes through His prophets. The prophets help us see what the mind of Christ is…and that gives us something to work toward.

In addition to inviting the Spirit, obeying prophets is a form of spiritual protection. “[It is a] fallacy…to believe that the choice to accept or not accept the counsel of prophets is no more than deciding whether to accept good advice and gain its benefits or to stay where we are….[T]he choice not to take prophetic counsel changes the very ground upon which we stand. It becomes more dangerous. The failure to take prophetic counsel lessens our power to take inspired counsel in the future.” (Henry B. Eyring, “Finding Safety in Counsel,â€? Ensign, May 1997, 24)

A couple more quotes:
“If you cross to the devil’s side of the line one inch, you are in the tempter’s power, and if he is successful, you will not be able to think or even reason properly, because you will have lost the spirit of the Lord.� (President George Albert Smith) Regardless of what law or commandment or even counsel is ignored or diminished or violated, we have reliquished a little of our agency to the adversary. That can put us in spiritual danger if not reversed quickly.

I loved this from Pres. Kimball: “I have learned that where there is a prayerful heart, a hungering after righteousness, a forsaking of sins, and obedience to the commandments of God, the Lord pours out more and more light until there is finally power to pierce the heavenly veil and to know more than man knows. A person of such righteousness has the priceless promise that one day he shall see the Lord’s face and know that he is (see D&C 93:1).” (Spencer W. Kimball, “Give the Lord Your Loyalty,â€? Tambuli, Feb. 1981, 36)

And this in and of itself undermines the theory proposed above. The grooming standard is a typical Mormon theme that is not unique to BYU.

== 2. Really ironic?

Yep. Think about it. What would BY say if he were alive today? A University named after me, and no beards allowed? This is like the Tuskeegee Institute disallowing afros.

== How the Powers That Be have removed beards on BY statues and paintings at the Y!

I said nothing of statues or art, so I’m not sure what your point is.