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	<title>Comments on: A Funny Thing Happened at the Forum on Mormon Feminism</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/a-funny-thing-happened-at-the-forum-on-mormon-feminism/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Single man</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/a-funny-thing-happened-at-the-forum-on-mormon-feminism/#comment-131085</link>
		<dc:creator>Single man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Apr 2006 17:01:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3015#comment-131085</guid>
		<description>&quot;Men donâ€™t have to think about how their wivesâ€™ careers may affect their careers...&quot;

Great. I&#039;ve been thinking about this with every woman I meet. Now I see that it&#039;s one more burden to free myself of! It&#039;s all on her. Phew!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Men donâ€™t have to think about how their wivesâ€™ careers may affect their careers&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Great. I&#8217;ve been thinking about this with every woman I meet. Now I see that it&#8217;s one more burden to free myself of! It&#8217;s all on her. Phew!</p>
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		<title>By: Van</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/a-funny-thing-happened-at-the-forum-on-mormon-feminism/#comment-129260</link>
		<dc:creator>Van</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:23:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3015#comment-129260</guid>
		<description>I think the priesthood issue and feminism is an interesting one.  One response is to say, &quot;Well, go join a more liberal religion.&quot;  The liberalized religions generally don&#039;t do as well as the conservative ones (the Ostlings in the book Mormon America make this point).  Why?  The usual answer is that the actual demands on the people are softened and limited to the point that the demands (and the religion) lose meaning.  What&#039;s the difference then between the sacred and a social network?  If gender is of eternal importance, as the Proclamation on the Family tells us, then what gendered divisions exist that make the genders complementary to one another in that union that is marriage?  

The wisdom of religious traditions usually comes out in the long historical view, keeping the needs of &quot;the seventh generation,&quot; as it is said, in mind when making our present day decisions.  Given that thought, there is a naturally conservative bent to religion, and my point isn&#039;t to say that therefore you can&#039;t expect to make huge changes to a religion without massive resistance (that goes without saying).  Rather, the changes you contemplate may have effects that you can&#039;t imagine; that the wisdom of the religious tradition is there for a reason, a long experienced and tried reason that you jettison not only at your own peril or your society&#039;s peril but at the peril of generations to come.  

As has been said already on this board, the church does a good job of socializing young men.  In an age when young men are falling behind in school, when the numbers of young men in college are decreasing, is it really wise to take something like the priesthood, a mechanism and a power after all that is about service, and make of it an object in secular society&#039;s battle of the sexes?  Is that even a battle that the church wants us to assume?  Does any of us want to war with our sons and fathers and husbands or daughters and mothers and wives?  A war after all is about total victory, absolute submission, domination, the destruction of the enemy.  Is that what we want to engage in?  Do we want to dispirit more boys and young men?  

If you love the young men in your life, from twelve year old deacons on up, then you&#039;ll not drag the priesthood into the war or battle of the sexes.  You&#039;ll keep your religion out of it too if you love your religion.  If you don&#039;t love your religion, then you go work to destroy it from within I guess or you can move on to another religion that desanctifies gender and with that, inevitably, marriage.  You only have to look at secular society and see what has become of genderless norms and of marriage to see the difference that the church can make.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the priesthood issue and feminism is an interesting one.  One response is to say, &#8220;Well, go join a more liberal religion.&#8221;  The liberalized religions generally don&#8217;t do as well as the conservative ones (the Ostlings in the book Mormon America make this point).  Why?  The usual answer is that the actual demands on the people are softened and limited to the point that the demands (and the religion) lose meaning.  What&#8217;s the difference then between the sacred and a social network?  If gender is of eternal importance, as the Proclamation on the Family tells us, then what gendered divisions exist that make the genders complementary to one another in that union that is marriage?  </p>
<p>The wisdom of religious traditions usually comes out in the long historical view, keeping the needs of &#8220;the seventh generation,&#8221; as it is said, in mind when making our present day decisions.  Given that thought, there is a naturally conservative bent to religion, and my point isn&#8217;t to say that therefore you can&#8217;t expect to make huge changes to a religion without massive resistance (that goes without saying).  Rather, the changes you contemplate may have effects that you can&#8217;t imagine; that the wisdom of the religious tradition is there for a reason, a long experienced and tried reason that you jettison not only at your own peril or your society&#8217;s peril but at the peril of generations to come.  </p>
<p>As has been said already on this board, the church does a good job of socializing young men.  In an age when young men are falling behind in school, when the numbers of young men in college are decreasing, is it really wise to take something like the priesthood, a mechanism and a power after all that is about service, and make of it an object in secular society&#8217;s battle of the sexes?  Is that even a battle that the church wants us to assume?  Does any of us want to war with our sons and fathers and husbands or daughters and mothers and wives?  A war after all is about total victory, absolute submission, domination, the destruction of the enemy.  Is that what we want to engage in?  Do we want to dispirit more boys and young men?  </p>
<p>If you love the young men in your life, from twelve year old deacons on up, then you&#8217;ll not drag the priesthood into the war or battle of the sexes.  You&#8217;ll keep your religion out of it too if you love your religion.  If you don&#8217;t love your religion, then you go work to destroy it from within I guess or you can move on to another religion that desanctifies gender and with that, inevitably, marriage.  You only have to look at secular society and see what has become of genderless norms and of marriage to see the difference that the church can make.</p>
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		<title>By: mullingandmusing (m&#38;m)</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/a-funny-thing-happened-at-the-forum-on-mormon-feminism/#comment-126455</link>
		<dc:creator>mullingandmusing (m&#38;m)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Mar 2006 06:29:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3015#comment-126455</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Hereâ€™s a newsflash: thereâ€™s no way to â€œkeep your skills currentâ€? without WORKING in your field. If women are being encouraged to do that, they are being encouraged to have at least a part-time career. Thatâ€™s a watershed. &lt;/i&gt;

Actually, my comment about the watershed was re: comments made above referencing Pres. Hinckley&#039;s nurse talk. My point was that his comments about how education can open up opportunity were nothing new. I didn&#039;t see that as a watershed moment.

As for the comments made in the most recent leadership broadcast, thanks, Edje, for posting the quotes. Again, though, this wasn&#039;t necessarily anything surprising. Anyone who knows of the importance of education knows that it&#039;s good to keep skills current to some degree. In our house, we call this another form of insurance. 

I have to say that I disagree that it&#039;s impossible to keep updated in one&#039;s field without leaving the kiddies. I think we need to think outside the box a little. &quot;Part-time career&quot; is not the only way to keep skills current. I have a graduate degree and through the course of staying home, I have been able to do things here and there to keep bullets on my rÃ©sumÃ©. This does not require working all of the time -- gaps on a rÃ©sumÃ© are not the end of the world, especially because it&#039;s easy to say &quot;I had two young children during that time&quot; or whatever. I can do a little bit here and there...and I have. I did some consulting for a few months from home; I did some work about 10 hours a month while hubby took a couple hours here and there to help out for about a year; I attempted to start my own company; I have participated on an advisory board at our local university; I have given talks/presentations a few times to young women on these very subjects.... I have left my kids with someone other than Dad maybe a &lt;i&gt;handful of times each year&lt;/i&gt; on the average (for about 4 of the 7 years I&#039;ve been home) to participate in such activities. Does this mean I&#039;m razor-sharp in my field? No, but I feel very confident that I have kept active enough that I could jump in and work if I had to. That&#039;s a great feeling.

What are other ways women can participate in &quot;increasing development&quot; as Elder Perry counseled? They can take classes, work from home, network and talk with people in their field, read material from their field, keep up certifications as applicable.... My sister tutors in her field. My friend continues to do things in her field, doing most of her classwork and activities during naptimes or when hubby&#039;s home. I think if we get stuck in the &quot;double-bind&quot; mindset (&quot;I am stuck between being told between staying home and keeping my skills current&quot;) we set ourselves up for frustration? Let&#039;s be creative! If staying current is important, we can pray for help that opportunities will come that won&#039;t require sacrificing that precious time with the children, but will allow for personal development and rÃ©sumÃ© bullets that keep some continuity in our chosen fields, at least a little bit along the way. I also think this is an example of how husband and wife working together can find solutions. It is because of my husband&#039;s support and help that I have been able to do the things I&#039;ve done.

I also think we can also potentially be a force for change in the workplace, trying to suggest ways that employers can keep connections alive with women who want to do a little on the side without having to regularly turn their children over to someone else&#039;s care. This is not something I had thought about when I first was home. I suppose I could have kept a connection with my company had I thought of asking for something flexible and relatively minimal. For example, I heard something interesting about what Microsoft is doing. They have different classifications of employees. One class of employee does not have a set schedule and can work here and there when desired (as long as he/she is not working for anyone else), for as long as desired (like a few hours a week even, for a week or two or whatever...it sounded to me like the employee could set the time parameters). I think there are possibilities out there that haven&#039;t really been explored...if we think outside the box a little, maybe we could find ways to have a little of the work life without so much of the sacrifice of family. Thoughts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Hereâ€™s a newsflash: thereâ€™s no way to â€œkeep your skills currentâ€? without WORKING in your field. If women are being encouraged to do that, they are being encouraged to have at least a part-time career. Thatâ€™s a watershed. </i></p>
<p>Actually, my comment about the watershed was re: comments made above referencing Pres. Hinckley&#8217;s nurse talk. My point was that his comments about how education can open up opportunity were nothing new. I didn&#8217;t see that as a watershed moment.</p>
<p>As for the comments made in the most recent leadership broadcast, thanks, Edje, for posting the quotes. Again, though, this wasn&#8217;t necessarily anything surprising. Anyone who knows of the importance of education knows that it&#8217;s good to keep skills current to some degree. In our house, we call this another form of insurance. </p>
<p>I have to say that I disagree that it&#8217;s impossible to keep updated in one&#8217;s field without leaving the kiddies. I think we need to think outside the box a little. &#8220;Part-time career&#8221; is not the only way to keep skills current. I have a graduate degree and through the course of staying home, I have been able to do things here and there to keep bullets on my rÃ©sumÃ©. This does not require working all of the time &#8212; gaps on a rÃ©sumÃ© are not the end of the world, especially because it&#8217;s easy to say &#8220;I had two young children during that time&#8221; or whatever. I can do a little bit here and there&#8230;and I have. I did some consulting for a few months from home; I did some work about 10 hours a month while hubby took a couple hours here and there to help out for about a year; I attempted to start my own company; I have participated on an advisory board at our local university; I have given talks/presentations a few times to young women on these very subjects&#8230;. I have left my kids with someone other than Dad maybe a <i>handful of times each year</i> on the average (for about 4 of the 7 years I&#8217;ve been home) to participate in such activities. Does this mean I&#8217;m razor-sharp in my field? No, but I feel very confident that I have kept active enough that I could jump in and work if I had to. That&#8217;s a great feeling.</p>
<p>What are other ways women can participate in &#8220;increasing development&#8221; as Elder Perry counseled? They can take classes, work from home, network and talk with people in their field, read material from their field, keep up certifications as applicable&#8230;. My sister tutors in her field. My friend continues to do things in her field, doing most of her classwork and activities during naptimes or when hubby&#8217;s home. I think if we get stuck in the &#8220;double-bind&#8221; mindset (&#8220;I am stuck between being told between staying home and keeping my skills current&#8221;) we set ourselves up for frustration? Let&#8217;s be creative! If staying current is important, we can pray for help that opportunities will come that won&#8217;t require sacrificing that precious time with the children, but will allow for personal development and rÃ©sumÃ© bullets that keep some continuity in our chosen fields, at least a little bit along the way. I also think this is an example of how husband and wife working together can find solutions. It is because of my husband&#8217;s support and help that I have been able to do the things I&#8217;ve done.</p>
<p>I also think we can also potentially be a force for change in the workplace, trying to suggest ways that employers can keep connections alive with women who want to do a little on the side without having to regularly turn their children over to someone else&#8217;s care. This is not something I had thought about when I first was home. I suppose I could have kept a connection with my company had I thought of asking for something flexible and relatively minimal. For example, I heard something interesting about what Microsoft is doing. They have different classifications of employees. One class of employee does not have a set schedule and can work here and there when desired (as long as he/she is not working for anyone else), for as long as desired (like a few hours a week even, for a week or two or whatever&#8230;it sounded to me like the employee could set the time parameters). I think there are possibilities out there that haven&#8217;t really been explored&#8230;if we think outside the box a little, maybe we could find ways to have a little of the work life without so much of the sacrifice of family. Thoughts?</p>
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		<title>By: pjj</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/a-funny-thing-happened-at-the-forum-on-mormon-feminism/#comment-126442</link>
		<dc:creator>pjj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Mar 2006 02:40:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3015#comment-126442</guid>
		<description>Jerrie, #57, I&#039;m interested in knowing what the actual statistics are for young single men leaving the church, and corresponding ones for women. And the source? I&#039;ve heard in the past that young women actually are leaving the church in large numbers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jerrie, #57, I&#8217;m interested in knowing what the actual statistics are for young single men leaving the church, and corresponding ones for women. And the source? I&#8217;ve heard in the past that young women actually are leaving the church in large numbers.</p>
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		<title>By: Gina</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/a-funny-thing-happened-at-the-forum-on-mormon-feminism/#comment-126431</link>
		<dc:creator>Gina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Mar 2006 01:40:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3015#comment-126431</guid>
		<description>I was at the broadcast (in our ward it wasn&#039;t an open invitation, but all priesthood leadership and auxiliary presidencies were invited), and like Kristine (#62) I thought it was pretty much a watershed moment. The context was laying out proper priorities, which they listed as 1.Spouse 2.Children 3.Providing for our families 4.Serving in the church, and specifically indicated that this applied equally to men and women. This gave me a lot to think about; the church was pretty much the one institution that until this point I had felt was not strongly encouraging me to somehow stay current in my field. As Kristine notes, I can hardly imagine how I could do this at this point with a 3 and 1 year old at home without having someone else care for them at least some of the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was at the broadcast (in our ward it wasn&#8217;t an open invitation, but all priesthood leadership and auxiliary presidencies were invited), and like Kristine (#62) I thought it was pretty much a watershed moment. The context was laying out proper priorities, which they listed as 1.Spouse 2.Children 3.Providing for our families 4.Serving in the church, and specifically indicated that this applied equally to men and women. This gave me a lot to think about; the church was pretty much the one institution that until this point I had felt was not strongly encouraging me to somehow stay current in my field. As Kristine notes, I can hardly imagine how I could do this at this point with a 3 and 1 year old at home without having someone else care for them at least some of the time.</p>
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		<title>By: DKL</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/a-funny-thing-happened-at-the-forum-on-mormon-feminism/#comment-126415</link>
		<dc:creator>DKL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Mar 2006 00:51:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3015#comment-126415</guid>
		<description>Tom Jones was just knighted (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/29/entertainment/main1451452.shtml&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&#039;s the news story&lt;/a&gt;). If this isn&#039;t a debate-ender for feminists everywhere, then I don&#039;t know what is. It&#039;s basically irrefutable proof that the opinion of women is given higher regard than the opinion of men.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom Jones was just knighted (<a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/29/entertainment/main1451452.shtml" rel="nofollow">here&#8217;s the news story</a>). If this isn&#8217;t a debate-ender for feminists everywhere, then I don&#8217;t know what is. It&#8217;s basically irrefutable proof that the opinion of women is given higher regard than the opinion of men.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristine Haglund Harris</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/a-funny-thing-happened-at-the-forum-on-mormon-feminism/#comment-126405</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristine Haglund Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Mar 2006 23:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3015#comment-126405</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Edje--that&#039;s really interesting.  I think it&#039;s also a classic double-bind for the sisters, as it&#039;s nearly impossible to be home full-time and keep a resumÃ© up-to-date.

(Don&#039;t remember how I missed the open invitation!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Edje&#8211;that&#8217;s really interesting.  I think it&#8217;s also a classic double-bind for the sisters, as it&#8217;s nearly impossible to be home full-time and keep a resumÃ© up-to-date.</p>
<p>(Don&#8217;t remember how I missed the open invitation!)</p>
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		<title>By: Edje</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/a-funny-thing-happened-at-the-forum-on-mormon-feminism/#comment-126403</link>
		<dc:creator>Edje</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Mar 2006 23:38:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3015#comment-126403</guid>
		<description>I think the quote m&amp;m is referring to (apologies, m&amp;m for putting words in your fingers) is &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,6560-1-3363-4,00.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Elder Perry&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;We need to maintain good skills to be gainfully employed. In a changing world, we must keep up-to-date, or our skills will become obsolete. Even though we are busy in Church assignments, we should not pass up opportunities to increase our development and improve the welfare of our families. This requires that we invest adequate time and thought to preparing for the future.

This counsel applies to the sisters as well as the brethren. Although the responsibility to provide for the family belongs primarily to fathers, the proclamation indicates that â€œdisability, death, or other circumstancesâ€? may also require you sisters to use and develop your skills to provide for your families.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Along the same lines, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,6561-1-3363-5,00.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Sister Parkin&lt;/a&gt; said: 

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Education and training enable parents to provide. Encourage your children to get all the education they can. In some countries, young people cannot qualify for Perpetual Education Fund loans because they have not completed secondary schooling. In todayâ€™s world, it is so important that parents continue to learn.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the quote m&amp;m is referring to (apologies, m&amp;m for putting words in your fingers) is <a href="http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,6560-1-3363-4,00.html" rel="nofollow">Elder Perry</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;We need to maintain good skills to be gainfully employed. In a changing world, we must keep up-to-date, or our skills will become obsolete. Even though we are busy in Church assignments, we should not pass up opportunities to increase our development and improve the welfare of our families. This requires that we invest adequate time and thought to preparing for the future.</p>
<p>This counsel applies to the sisters as well as the brethren. Although the responsibility to provide for the family belongs primarily to fathers, the proclamation indicates that â€œdisability, death, or other circumstancesâ€? may also require you sisters to use and develop your skills to provide for your families.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Along the same lines, <a href="http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,6561-1-3363-5,00.html" rel="nofollow">Sister Parkin</a> said: </p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Education and training enable parents to provide. Encourage your children to get all the education they can. In some countries, young people cannot qualify for Perpetual Education Fund loans because they have not completed secondary schooling. In todayâ€™s world, it is so important that parents continue to learn.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Edje</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/a-funny-thing-happened-at-the-forum-on-mormon-feminism/#comment-126400</link>
		<dc:creator>Edje</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Mar 2006 23:06:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3015#comment-126400</guid>
		<description>KHH (62): The last &quot;leadership&quot; broadcast (I presume we&#039;re talking about the Feb 2006, &quot;Supporting the Family&quot;?) was open invitation to all adult members. It was announced in our sacrament as such; in the introductory remarks the open invitation was reiterated. 

The talks are available &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,6551-1-3363-1,00.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KHH (62): The last &#8220;leadership&#8221; broadcast (I presume we&#8217;re talking about the Feb 2006, &#8220;Supporting the Family&#8221;?) was open invitation to all adult members. It was announced in our sacrament as such; in the introductory remarks the open invitation was reiterated. </p>
<p>The talks are available <a href="http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,6551-1-3363-1,00.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristine Haglund Harris</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/03/a-funny-thing-happened-at-the-forum-on-mormon-feminism/#comment-126395</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristine Haglund Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Mar 2006 22:20:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3015#comment-126395</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s a newsflash:  there&#039;s no way to &quot;keep your skills current&quot; without WORKING in your field.  If women are being encouraged to do that, they are being encouraged to have at least a part-time career.  That&#039;s a watershed. 

(I&#039;d be interested, btw, in precise quotations from that leadership broadcast, SAHM&#039;s by definition not being &quot;leaders&quot; and invited to hear such things...grrrrrr!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a newsflash:  there&#8217;s no way to &#8220;keep your skills current&#8221; without WORKING in your field.  If women are being encouraged to do that, they are being encouraged to have at least a part-time career.  That&#8217;s a watershed. </p>
<p>(I&#8217;d be interested, btw, in precise quotations from that leadership broadcast, SAHM&#8217;s by definition not being &#8220;leaders&#8221; and invited to hear such things&#8230;grrrrrr!)</p>
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