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	<title>Comments on: The planets which move in their regular form</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/01/the-planets-which-move-in-their-regular-form/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Joseph Stanford</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/01/the-planets-which-move-in-their-regular-form/#comment-116086</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Stanford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jan 2006 19:46:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2820#comment-116086</guid>
		<description>I have heard a quote attributed to Albert Einstein that says that one can approach life in one of two ways: either believing that nothing is a miracle or believing that everything is.  I don&#039;t know if Einstein really said this, but I think it is accurate in the sense that understanding proximate causes isn&#039;t the main issue.  The main issue is our underlying assumptions, which may include or exclude God.  Science as a way of knowing still occurs in the context of our underlying assumptions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have heard a quote attributed to Albert Einstein that says that one can approach life in one of two ways: either believing that nothing is a miracle or believing that everything is.  I don&#8217;t know if Einstein really said this, but I think it is accurate in the sense that understanding proximate causes isn&#8217;t the main issue.  The main issue is our underlying assumptions, which may include or exclude God.  Science as a way of knowing still occurs in the context of our underlying assumptions.</p>
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		<title>By: Digger</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/01/the-planets-which-move-in-their-regular-form/#comment-115462</link>
		<dc:creator>Digger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jan 2006 11:49:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2820#comment-115462</guid>
		<description>How does an infinite regression of Designers help, other than to obscure origins?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How does an infinite regression of Designers help, other than to obscure origins?</p>
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		<title>By: a random John</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/01/the-planets-which-move-in-their-regular-form/#comment-115210</link>
		<dc:creator>a random John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jan 2006 17:46:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>At least Mormonism allows for an infinite regression of designers.  Others have a bigger problem here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At least Mormonism allows for an infinite regression of designers.  Others have a bigger problem here.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/01/the-planets-which-move-in-their-regular-form/#comment-114945</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jan 2006 23:15:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Otto, thanks for that quote.  Going far enough in both science and religion to get past the most apparent descrepancies is not an easy task, and can lead down some lonely paths.  But the views can be breathtaking!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Otto, thanks for that quote.  Going far enough in both science and religion to get past the most apparent descrepancies is not an easy task, and can lead down some lonely paths.  But the views can be breathtaking!</p>
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		<title>By: Otto</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/01/the-planets-which-move-in-their-regular-form/#comment-114827</link>
		<dc:creator>Otto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jan 2006 04:12:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I know this thread is trailing off a bit, but I thought &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.physorg.com/news9550.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this recent profile of Norman Tolk&lt;/a&gt;, a professor of physics at Vanderbilt University, might be of interest.

One particularly pertinent paragraph:

&lt;i&gt;â€œIf there is an apparent conflict between science and religion, it is simply because we either donâ€™t understand enough about the science, or we donâ€™t understand enough about the religion.â€? He gives an example of a colleague and fellow Mormon that he knew in New York. â€œI had a friend at Columbia who was a Mormon bishop at the time, and whose work should have won him the Nobel Prize. When he was leaving to study physics in college, he asked his father â€˜What about religion?â€™ His father said â€˜Son, you only have an obligation to believe that which is true.â€™ Iâ€™ve never forgotten that.â€? &lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know this thread is trailing off a bit, but I thought <a href="http://www.physorg.com/news9550.html" rel="nofollow">this recent profile of Norman Tolk</a>, a professor of physics at Vanderbilt University, might be of interest.</p>
<p>One particularly pertinent paragraph:</p>
<p><i>â€œIf there is an apparent conflict between science and religion, it is simply because we either donâ€™t understand enough about the science, or we donâ€™t understand enough about the religion.â€? He gives an example of a colleague and fellow Mormon that he knew in New York. â€œI had a friend at Columbia who was a Mormon bishop at the time, and whose work should have won him the Nobel Prize. When he was leaving to study physics in college, he asked his father â€˜What about religion?â€™ His father said â€˜Son, you only have an obligation to believe that which is true.â€™ Iâ€™ve never forgotten that.â€? </i></p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/01/the-planets-which-move-in-their-regular-form/#comment-114777</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2006 19:17:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2820#comment-114777</guid>
		<description>I envy you, sam brown. How I long to be delivered (for a moment, at least) from the precepts of academia when it comes to experiencing truth and beauty. My pure sensibilities have given way to a feverish dithering--a storm of mad girations on multiple axis bereft of any concept of zenith. Oh, to be a child again; to love what I love without the culturally imposed need for an acredited someone to tell me what I should love.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I envy you, sam brown. How I long to be delivered (for a moment, at least) from the precepts of academia when it comes to experiencing truth and beauty. My pure sensibilities have given way to a feverish dithering&#8211;a storm of mad girations on multiple axis bereft of any concept of zenith. Oh, to be a child again; to love what I love without the culturally imposed need for an acredited someone to tell me what I should love.</p>
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		<title>By: sam brown</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/01/the-planets-which-move-in-their-regular-form/#comment-114775</link>
		<dc:creator>sam brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:59:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2820#comment-114775</guid>
		<description>Final isolated thought.

Re: this idea that no one intelligent would make something complex

a) I think that people are surprised that it seems to &quot;work&quot; whatever that means, and they anticipate that a perfect designer would be required to make a complex system &quot;work.&quot;
b) there is an emphasis on the orderliness of everything, which does appear to be fairly simple.
c) historically complexity was seen as an indication of God&#039;s grace and power, specifically that he was capable of filling every possible miniscule nook both in physical space AND in taxonomic space with subtly graduated variations.  People weren&#039;t claiming that he was an uber-engineer, they were claiming that his power and goodness were so overwhelming that he gladly created every possible thing.  (Lovejoy has a great summary of this)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Final isolated thought.</p>
<p>Re: this idea that no one intelligent would make something complex</p>
<p>a) I think that people are surprised that it seems to &#8220;work&#8221; whatever that means, and they anticipate that a perfect designer would be required to make a complex system &#8220;work.&#8221;<br />
b) there is an emphasis on the orderliness of everything, which does appear to be fairly simple.<br />
c) historically complexity was seen as an indication of God&#8217;s grace and power, specifically that he was capable of filling every possible miniscule nook both in physical space AND in taxonomic space with subtly graduated variations.  People weren&#8217;t claiming that he was an uber-engineer, they were claiming that his power and goodness were so overwhelming that he gladly created every possible thing.  (Lovejoy has a great summary of this)</p>
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		<title>By: sam brown</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/01/the-planets-which-move-in-their-regular-form/#comment-114774</link>
		<dc:creator>sam brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:56:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2820#comment-114774</guid>
		<description>A separate idea hence a separate post.

I think this also is about the interface between finitude and infinity.  There&#039;s a great line in Speak, Memory (Nabokov&#039;s juggernaut of a memoir) that talks about the dizzy juxtaposition of a finite mind and the great infinity of a parent&#039;s love for a child.

This experience that Alma and others talk about, this sense that the vast, orderly complexity of the universe bespeaks the existence of God, in a large part is about our encounter with infinity.  How wonderful and reassuring that instead of the nihilist&#039;s abyss that great potential void is filled with an orderly creation of an infinite God.

I think that&#039;s why astronomic objects (I was going to say astrologic but worried the historical reference would be too obscure), mountains, weather, and the oceans are some of the most familiar tropes for this encounter.  They are the times that we seem to be encountering objects of infinite vastness or infinite temporal expanse.  They represent God&#039;s infinity.

That&#039;s another reason I think we&#039;re so taken with these arguments, and another reason that I am delighted to comprehend nature as an expression of God&#039;s infinite love.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A separate idea hence a separate post.</p>
<p>I think this also is about the interface between finitude and infinity.  There&#8217;s a great line in Speak, Memory (Nabokov&#8217;s juggernaut of a memoir) that talks about the dizzy juxtaposition of a finite mind and the great infinity of a parent&#8217;s love for a child.</p>
<p>This experience that Alma and others talk about, this sense that the vast, orderly complexity of the universe bespeaks the existence of God, in a large part is about our encounter with infinity.  How wonderful and reassuring that instead of the nihilist&#8217;s abyss that great potential void is filled with an orderly creation of an infinite God.</p>
<p>I think that&#8217;s why astronomic objects (I was going to say astrologic but worried the historical reference would be too obscure), mountains, weather, and the oceans are some of the most familiar tropes for this encounter.  They are the times that we seem to be encountering objects of infinite vastness or infinite temporal expanse.  They represent God&#8217;s infinity.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s another reason I think we&#8217;re so taken with these arguments, and another reason that I am delighted to comprehend nature as an expression of God&#8217;s infinite love.</p>
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		<title>By: Kingsley</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/01/the-planets-which-move-in-their-regular-form/#comment-114773</link>
		<dc:creator>Kingsley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:55:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2820#comment-114773</guid>
		<description>Otto, my exposure to the debate has come primarily from &lt;i&gt;Time&lt;/i&gt; and CNN and so forth, where both sides seem cut from the same cloth. Thanks for the response.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Otto, my exposure to the debate has come primarily from <i>Time</i> and CNN and so forth, where both sides seem cut from the same cloth. Thanks for the response.</p>
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		<title>By: sam brown</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/01/the-planets-which-move-in-their-regular-form/#comment-114772</link>
		<dc:creator>sam brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:48:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2820#comment-114772</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve thought about this a fair bit too.  I&#039;ll admit to being somewhat taken by the book I am currently reading, which I have mentioned I believe in a prior post.  It&#039;s Elijah Lovejoy&#039;s _Great Chain of Being_ a collection of lectures given in the 1930s and representing the standard treatment of a longstanding idea that there is a &quot;chain&quot; or &quot;scale&quot; of being which encompasses all created beings and fills all of empty space.

It has occurred to me in reading the book and in reading this thread that there is another aspect to this discussion that we don&#039;t talk much about.  In a sense these debates about how to interpret the physical universe are more debates about how to interpret ourselves.  We are the ones who are responding to the &quot;immensity&quot; of space, it is our sensuous and (ir)rational experience that denotes the universe as &quot;simple&quot; or &quot;complex,&quot; and we are the ones who determine whether something is beautiful or not.
In many cases (not all), we are focusing on our sense experience, our pleasure, our sense of a place in creation or of stewardship over other created beings/things.

The threat of Darwinism (social and biological) is not that the world isn&#039;t glorious, beautiful, inspiring, or even that there is no God (only in a false dichotomy can you erase God if you believe in Darwinism).  It is that we aren&#039;t God&#039;s special creations (or children/nurtured intelligences in Mormon parlance).

In alternate phrasing evolution doesn&#039;t dethrone God, it dethrones us.

Lovejoy argues that this was inherent in the Great Chain of Being from the start, and that in this sense evolution was not a huge change, although that is not how we have in retrospect understood this philosophical shift.


Though you would think I&#039;m denigrating this anthropocentric view of the universe, I find it both comforting and liberating.  It leaves me free to delight in the rich complexity of the universe and--because I believe in God for other reasons--to experience it as his kind gift to me.  I don&#039;t have to decide the ID debate or frankly take much interest in it.  By focusing on my experience of beauty and vastness, I can, without too much philosophical dithering, love God and feel his love for me in a wide variety of natural environments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve thought about this a fair bit too.  I&#8217;ll admit to being somewhat taken by the book I am currently reading, which I have mentioned I believe in a prior post.  It&#8217;s Elijah Lovejoy&#8217;s _Great Chain of Being_ a collection of lectures given in the 1930s and representing the standard treatment of a longstanding idea that there is a &#8220;chain&#8221; or &#8220;scale&#8221; of being which encompasses all created beings and fills all of empty space.</p>
<p>It has occurred to me in reading the book and in reading this thread that there is another aspect to this discussion that we don&#8217;t talk much about.  In a sense these debates about how to interpret the physical universe are more debates about how to interpret ourselves.  We are the ones who are responding to the &#8220;immensity&#8221; of space, it is our sensuous and (ir)rational experience that denotes the universe as &#8220;simple&#8221; or &#8220;complex,&#8221; and we are the ones who determine whether something is beautiful or not.<br />
In many cases (not all), we are focusing on our sense experience, our pleasure, our sense of a place in creation or of stewardship over other created beings/things.</p>
<p>The threat of Darwinism (social and biological) is not that the world isn&#8217;t glorious, beautiful, inspiring, or even that there is no God (only in a false dichotomy can you erase God if you believe in Darwinism).  It is that we aren&#8217;t God&#8217;s special creations (or children/nurtured intelligences in Mormon parlance).</p>
<p>In alternate phrasing evolution doesn&#8217;t dethrone God, it dethrones us.</p>
<p>Lovejoy argues that this was inherent in the Great Chain of Being from the start, and that in this sense evolution was not a huge change, although that is not how we have in retrospect understood this philosophical shift.</p>
<p>Though you would think I&#8217;m denigrating this anthropocentric view of the universe, I find it both comforting and liberating.  It leaves me free to delight in the rich complexity of the universe and&#8211;because I believe in God for other reasons&#8211;to experience it as his kind gift to me.  I don&#8217;t have to decide the ID debate or frankly take much interest in it.  By focusing on my experience of beauty and vastness, I can, without too much philosophical dithering, love God and feel his love for me in a wide variety of natural environments.</p>
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