<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: RSR: Walter van Beek on Joseph Smith</title>
	<atom:link href="http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/rsrwalter-van-beek-on-joseph-smith/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/rsrwalter-van-beek-on-joseph-smith/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 07:57:21 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/rsrwalter-van-beek-on-joseph-smith/#comment-111891</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Dec 2005 18:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2756#comment-111891</guid>
		<description>OK, I didn&#039;t know whether to count that one. Thanks, Wilfried, and everyone else involved in the symposium. It has been great and endlessly interesting for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I didn&#8217;t know whether to count that one. Thanks, Wilfried, and everyone else involved in the symposium. It has been great and endlessly interesting for me.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Wilfried</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/rsrwalter-van-beek-on-joseph-smith/#comment-111809</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilfried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Dec 2005 03:33:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2756#comment-111809</guid>
		<description>Julie was the first, as a general introduction with questions, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2759&quot;&gt;right here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julie was the first, as a general introduction with questions, <a href="http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2759">right here</a>.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/rsrwalter-van-beek-on-joseph-smith/#comment-111808</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Dec 2005 03:30:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2756#comment-111808</guid>
		<description>Is there another review coming, or am I miscounting at three (van Beek, Fox, Oman)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there another review coming, or am I miscounting at three (van Beek, Fox, Oman)?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jonathan N</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/rsrwalter-van-beek-on-joseph-smith/#comment-111629</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan N</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Dec 2005 22:30:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2756#comment-111629</guid>
		<description>Fascinating discussion, especially about the defnition of a prophet.

Van Beek writes &quot;[the prophets&#039;] predicting of the future is highly unreliable... This raises the moot theological question whether the future is knowable at all, for anyone, even for divinity....Joseph never ventured into the â€˜omniâ€™sâ€™ of God (â€˜omniscient, omnipotentâ€™)....The consequences for the â€˜knowabilityâ€™ of the future are complex, but Josephâ€™s theology and anthropology (they almost conflate) do raise questions about the reliability of detailed predictions of the future.&quot;

I don&#039;t agree that &quot;Joseph never ventured into the &#039;omni&#039;s&#039; of God.&quot; The idea that God cannot know the future because it would interfere with free agency has been kicked around for a long time, but the scriptures and commentary provided by Joseph, as well as his life experience, directly address the question. The BoM, D&amp;C, and PoGP give us more detailed accounts of God&#039;s omniscience, specifically with regard to what we call the future, than any Biblical account. As examples, consider Mormon&#039;s inclusion of the small plates because God knew that Joseph would lose the 116 pages 1400 years later; Samuel&#039;s prophecies about the signs attending the birth and death of Christ; Nephi&#039;s precise prediction of what the murderer would say and do when confronted; Enoch&#039;s detailed vision of the future, including the crucifixion of Christ; and other examples.

Besides, we know from physics that past, present, and future are all relative and a person can travel back and forth through them if at a sufficient distance.

Perhaps the ambiguity van Beek alludes to reflects prophetic concern about the effects on free agency of specific revelations of the future, but I think Joseph&#039;s contributions laid to rest the question about whether God is omniscient.

I don&#039;t think this issue is moot. A belief that God is omniscient, at least with respect to us, seems a prerequisite for exercising faith in God, and this is just another area in which Joseph supplied the doctrine that the Bible inadequately provided.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascinating discussion, especially about the defnition of a prophet.</p>
<p>Van Beek writes &#8220;[the prophets'] predicting of the future is highly unreliable&#8230; This raises the moot theological question whether the future is knowable at all, for anyone, even for divinity&#8230;.Joseph never ventured into the â€˜omniâ€™sâ€™ of God (â€˜omniscient, omnipotentâ€™)&#8230;.The consequences for the â€˜knowabilityâ€™ of the future are complex, but Josephâ€™s theology and anthropology (they almost conflate) do raise questions about the reliability of detailed predictions of the future.&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t agree that &#8220;Joseph never ventured into the &#8216;omni&#8217;s&#8217; of God.&#8221; The idea that God cannot know the future because it would interfere with free agency has been kicked around for a long time, but the scriptures and commentary provided by Joseph, as well as his life experience, directly address the question. The BoM, D&amp;C, and PoGP give us more detailed accounts of God&#8217;s omniscience, specifically with regard to what we call the future, than any Biblical account. As examples, consider Mormon&#8217;s inclusion of the small plates because God knew that Joseph would lose the 116 pages 1400 years later; Samuel&#8217;s prophecies about the signs attending the birth and death of Christ; Nephi&#8217;s precise prediction of what the murderer would say and do when confronted; Enoch&#8217;s detailed vision of the future, including the crucifixion of Christ; and other examples.</p>
<p>Besides, we know from physics that past, present, and future are all relative and a person can travel back and forth through them if at a sufficient distance.</p>
<p>Perhaps the ambiguity van Beek alludes to reflects prophetic concern about the effects on free agency of specific revelations of the future, but I think Joseph&#8217;s contributions laid to rest the question about whether God is omniscient.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think this issue is moot. A belief that God is omniscient, at least with respect to us, seems a prerequisite for exercising faith in God, and this is just another area in which Joseph supplied the doctrine that the Bible inadequately provided.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christian Y. Cardall</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/rsrwalter-van-beek-on-joseph-smith/#comment-111473</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian Y. Cardall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Dec 2005 05:34:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2756#comment-111473</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;In the Book of Mormon the traditional historic Adam and Eve comment on the consequences of their transgression. In the books of Moses and Abraham the story gradually becomes more complex and more loaded with symbolism, while the initiation drama in the temple stresses the timelessness of the creation story, filling it with people of almost all dispensations at the same time.&lt;/i&gt;

The temple version might &lt;i&gt;seem&lt;/i&gt; more symbolic and timeless---it certainly seems like a comfortable thing for us to say---but I think that Joseph and Brigham took Adam and Eve very literally, and also as types for us, but not mere symbols. Certainly I disagree with the claimed progression from historic to symbolic in the Book of Mormon to Moses to Abraham. In the first place, it is not the Book of Mormon where Adam and Eve are quoted commenting on their transgression; it is the Book of Moses. Moreover, the Book of Moses uncompromisingly &lt;i&gt;strengthens&lt;/i&gt; the historical nature of the creation account relative to Genesis by placing the narrative squarely in Moses&#039; first-person words and adding Moses&#039; visionary preface that the Lord is telling him why and how he did the creation. The Book of Abraham is also given in the first-person factual reporting mode. With its talk of set times and revolutions and so on it seems fixated on the functional mechanics of the universe. When it comes to the Genesis chapters, the Book of Abraham contains phraseology that makes it the version most looked to by those seeking some sort of quasi-realistic match up with modern scientific accounts---a clear sign it strikes moderns as the most plausibly historic account of all. (There may even be some who wish the temple version showed more dependence on Abraham instead of Moses, viewing the choice of the latter as a step backwards.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>In the Book of Mormon the traditional historic Adam and Eve comment on the consequences of their transgression. In the books of Moses and Abraham the story gradually becomes more complex and more loaded with symbolism, while the initiation drama in the temple stresses the timelessness of the creation story, filling it with people of almost all dispensations at the same time.</i></p>
<p>The temple version might <i>seem</i> more symbolic and timeless&#8212;it certainly seems like a comfortable thing for us to say&#8212;but I think that Joseph and Brigham took Adam and Eve very literally, and also as types for us, but not mere symbols. Certainly I disagree with the claimed progression from historic to symbolic in the Book of Mormon to Moses to Abraham. In the first place, it is not the Book of Mormon where Adam and Eve are quoted commenting on their transgression; it is the Book of Moses. Moreover, the Book of Moses uncompromisingly <i>strengthens</i> the historical nature of the creation account relative to Genesis by placing the narrative squarely in Moses&#8217; first-person words and adding Moses&#8217; visionary preface that the Lord is telling him why and how he did the creation. The Book of Abraham is also given in the first-person factual reporting mode. With its talk of set times and revolutions and so on it seems fixated on the functional mechanics of the universe. When it comes to the Genesis chapters, the Book of Abraham contains phraseology that makes it the version most looked to by those seeking some sort of quasi-realistic match up with modern scientific accounts&#8212;a clear sign it strikes moderns as the most plausibly historic account of all. (There may even be some who wish the temple version showed more dependence on Abraham instead of Moses, viewing the choice of the latter as a step backwards.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: manaen</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/rsrwalter-van-beek-on-joseph-smith/#comment-111444</link>
		<dc:creator>manaen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2005 23:02:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2756#comment-111444</guid>
		<description>So much to consider here!  This review and Br. Bushmanâ€™s response are valuable steps in a journey I hadnâ€™t expected to make: finally appreciating Joseph Smith and his contributions.  Born and reared in an LDS life, Joseph Smithâ€™s work, and struggle, was as much a part of the familiar background as air.  I didnâ€™t consider or appreciate air until pondering the title of Bill Cosbyâ€™s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.musicoutfitter.com/store/item/093624688822/whyisthereair.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;album&lt;/a&gt;.   Now, this yearâ€™s appearance of &lt;i&gt;RSR&lt;/i&gt; and reading the &lt;i&gt;BoM&lt;/i&gt; in the context of Jos. Smithâ€™s birthâ€™s bicentennial are causing me to be amazed that I didnâ€™t see what I looked at my whole life.
.
10.
â€œBushmanâ€™s book made me &lt;i&gt;love&lt;/i&gt; Joseph.â€?
I have the personal history of one of my pioneer grandmothers.  She talks of persecution while an 11-yo handing out tracts in England, burying her mother on the plains, her husbandâ€™s death by snowslide in Utah and finding his body in the spring thaw.  Her simple acceptance and faith stirred me.  After reading her story, I was surprised to realize that I then loved the person in that little sepia photo.  Thanks, Kingsley â€“ now I have more to hope for when I read RSR.
.
Br. Van Beekâ€™s penultimate sentence, â€œSo, in fact, Joseph Smith is no longer a prophet of our time: he belonged to another era in which we are strangersâ€? recalled an experience from my mission in Argentina.  Bruce R. McConkie took us through a two-step paraphrase of D&amp;C 5:10.
.
â€œBut this generation shall have my word through youâ€?
.
1) â€œBut the people of Joseph Smithâ€™s time shall have the Lordâ€™s word through Joseph Smith.â€?
Meaning that although the words of the prophets in the scriptures are true, they were sent for their people and times and Joseph was sent for his time.
.
2) â€œBut the people of today shall have the Lordâ€™s word through todayâ€™s prophet.â€?
Meaning that although the words of the prophets in the scriptures &lt;i&gt;and of Joseph Smith&lt;/i&gt; are true, they were sent for their people and times and todayâ€™s living prophet is whom we follow today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So much to consider here!  This review and Br. Bushmanâ€™s response are valuable steps in a journey I hadnâ€™t expected to make: finally appreciating Joseph Smith and his contributions.  Born and reared in an LDS life, Joseph Smithâ€™s work, and struggle, was as much a part of the familiar background as air.  I didnâ€™t consider or appreciate air until pondering the title of Bill Cosbyâ€™s <a href="http://www.musicoutfitter.com/store/item/093624688822/whyisthereair.html" rel="nofollow">album</a>.   Now, this yearâ€™s appearance of <i>RSR</i> and reading the <i>BoM</i> in the context of Jos. Smithâ€™s birthâ€™s bicentennial are causing me to be amazed that I didnâ€™t see what I looked at my whole life.<br />
.<br />
10.<br />
â€œBushmanâ€™s book made me <i>love</i> Joseph.â€?<br />
I have the personal history of one of my pioneer grandmothers.  She talks of persecution while an 11-yo handing out tracts in England, burying her mother on the plains, her husbandâ€™s death by snowslide in Utah and finding his body in the spring thaw.  Her simple acceptance and faith stirred me.  After reading her story, I was surprised to realize that I then loved the person in that little sepia photo.  Thanks, Kingsley â€“ now I have more to hope for when I read RSR.<br />
.<br />
Br. Van Beekâ€™s penultimate sentence, â€œSo, in fact, Joseph Smith is no longer a prophet of our time: he belonged to another era in which we are strangersâ€? recalled an experience from my mission in Argentina.  Bruce R. McConkie took us through a two-step paraphrase of D&amp;C 5:10.<br />
.<br />
â€œBut this generation shall have my word through youâ€?<br />
.<br />
1) â€œBut the people of Joseph Smithâ€™s time shall have the Lordâ€™s word through Joseph Smith.â€?<br />
Meaning that although the words of the prophets in the scriptures are true, they were sent for their people and times and Joseph was sent for his time.<br />
.<br />
2) â€œBut the people of today shall have the Lordâ€™s word through todayâ€™s prophet.â€?<br />
Meaning that although the words of the prophets in the scriptures <i>and of Joseph Smith</i> are true, they were sent for their people and times and todayâ€™s living prophet is whom we follow today.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kingsley</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/rsrwalter-van-beek-on-joseph-smith/#comment-111437</link>
		<dc:creator>Kingsley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2005 22:18:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2756#comment-111437</guid>
		<description>I loved Bushman&#039;s response to Nate that he didn&#039;t reveal Joseph&#039;s &quot;warts&quot; so much as a fuller picture of the man that allows us to appreciate more aspects of his personality than just the kinder gentler ones. I also loved Adam&#039;s statement about &quot;holiness [being] legion.&quot; I&#039;m moved by Jesus weeping over the dead Lazarus; also by his cleansing of the temple with a whip. One thing that may come from understanding the &quot;messy, more humane&quot; side of prophets is a deeper appreciation of the &lt;i&gt;beauty&lt;/i&gt; of that side, even a certain reveling (&quot;to take great pleasure or delight&quot;) in it, just as we revel in the silly and stumbling and try, try again sides of our friends, their passions and tempers and dark days and doubt. Talk about disarming the critics and laying a foundation for strong testimony: Bushman&#039;s book made me &lt;i&gt;love&lt;/i&gt; Joseph.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I loved Bushman&#8217;s response to Nate that he didn&#8217;t reveal Joseph&#8217;s &#8220;warts&#8221; so much as a fuller picture of the man that allows us to appreciate more aspects of his personality than just the kinder gentler ones. I also loved Adam&#8217;s statement about &#8220;holiness [being] legion.&#8221; I&#8217;m moved by Jesus weeping over the dead Lazarus; also by his cleansing of the temple with a whip. One thing that may come from understanding the &#8220;messy, more humane&#8221; side of prophets is a deeper appreciation of the <i>beauty</i> of that side, even a certain reveling (&#8220;to take great pleasure or delight&#8221;) in it, just as we revel in the silly and stumbling and try, try again sides of our friends, their passions and tempers and dark days and doubt. Talk about disarming the critics and laying a foundation for strong testimony: Bushman&#8217;s book made me <i>love</i> Joseph.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Wilfried</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/rsrwalter-van-beek-on-joseph-smith/#comment-111433</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilfried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2005 20:44:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2756#comment-111433</guid>
		<description>What a wealth of thoughts and insights. Thank you so much, Walter van Beek and Richard Bushman. Much to ponder and to enjoy: the contradictory relation of Joseph Smith with America, but also the uniqueness of his &quot;American&quot; vision within that &quot;empty space&quot;, the connection with the utopian endeavors, the relation between the prophet and his God, and more. I lack the time (and I admit the background when I reread your contribution) to discuss in depth. Just my deep appreciation for a paragraph like this:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;I do think we tend to homogenize prophets and to assign them all the qualities we would like them to have: knowledge of the future, impeccable lives, imposing and charismatic personalities, organizers and statesmen, all the while being the mouthpieces of the Lord. The reality is more messy, more humane and definitely more convincing: there are many sorts of prophets, but struggle is almost always part of the calling: struggle with the calling, struggle to get the Lordâ€™s ear, and the perennial struggle to get the Word of God, struggle for forgiveness.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a wealth of thoughts and insights. Thank you so much, Walter van Beek and Richard Bushman. Much to ponder and to enjoy: the contradictory relation of Joseph Smith with America, but also the uniqueness of his &#8220;American&#8221; vision within that &#8220;empty space&#8221;, the connection with the utopian endeavors, the relation between the prophet and his God, and more. I lack the time (and I admit the background when I reread your contribution) to discuss in depth. Just my deep appreciation for a paragraph like this:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;I do think we tend to homogenize prophets and to assign them all the qualities we would like them to have: knowledge of the future, impeccable lives, imposing and charismatic personalities, organizers and statesmen, all the while being the mouthpieces of the Lord. The reality is more messy, more humane and definitely more convincing: there are many sorts of prophets, but struggle is almost always part of the calling: struggle with the calling, struggle to get the Lordâ€™s ear, and the perennial struggle to get the Word of God, struggle for forgiveness.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/rsrwalter-van-beek-on-joseph-smith/#comment-111432</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2005 20:04:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2756#comment-111432</guid>
		<description>Mssr. Ryan,

I&#039;m thinking about the talk about republicanism and the dangers of theocracy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mssr. Ryan,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m thinking about the talk about republicanism and the dangers of theocracy.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/rsrwalter-van-beek-on-joseph-smith/#comment-111431</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2005 20:02:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2756#comment-111431</guid>
		<description>&quot;folks didnâ€™t like too much when Joseph Smith actually tried to paint the canvas, as it destroyed the blankness and the possibilities&quot;

I think this is an interesting idea although personally I feel it is unlikely and lends too much intellectual credit to the detractors of Mormonism. I don&#039;t imagine that either consciously or subconciously they were driven to bloodshed because they were afraid to lose the blank canvas that America provided. I believe rather, that they reverted back to one of the most base of human reactions, fear and anger towards that which we lack understanding of. I guess it&#039;s sort of an Occam&#039;s Razor type theory. But hey, they were simple men, those who both encouraged and performed viloent acts</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;folks didnâ€™t like too much when Joseph Smith actually tried to paint the canvas, as it destroyed the blankness and the possibilities&#8221;</p>
<p>I think this is an interesting idea although personally I feel it is unlikely and lends too much intellectual credit to the detractors of Mormonism. I don&#8217;t imagine that either consciously or subconciously they were driven to bloodshed because they were afraid to lose the blank canvas that America provided. I believe rather, that they reverted back to one of the most base of human reactions, fear and anger towards that which we lack understanding of. I guess it&#8217;s sort of an Occam&#8217;s Razor type theory. But hey, they were simple men, those who both encouraged and performed viloent acts</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
<!-- WP Super Cache is installed but broken. The path to wp-cache-phase1.php in wp-content/advanced-cache.php must be fixed! -->
