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	<title>Comments on: On being a bookkeeper in Zion</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/on-being-a-bookkeeper-in-zion/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Scott H.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/on-being-a-bookkeeper-in-zion/#comment-114636</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2006 18:04:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2805#comment-114636</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your insights!  Remembering back to my mission, there were several faithful members in Chile that were employed in building and maintaining the church buildings.  This employment gave them the financial security to be able to devote their free time to their church callings.  I am glad my tithing is able to help.  

Regarding the church assets, at what point should the church stop investing surplus tithing receipts into income generating assets and reroute tithing to humanitarian needs?  It seems that that asset allocation decision should be considered.  After all, if the church was able to recently plunk down $1 billion of non-tithing income to buy a mall, perhaps its financial footing is sufficiently sound to invest the surplus into some of the causes we have mentioned here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your insights!  Remembering back to my mission, there were several faithful members in Chile that were employed in building and maintaining the church buildings.  This employment gave them the financial security to be able to devote their free time to their church callings.  I am glad my tithing is able to help.  </p>
<p>Regarding the church assets, at what point should the church stop investing surplus tithing receipts into income generating assets and reroute tithing to humanitarian needs?  It seems that that asset allocation decision should be considered.  After all, if the church was able to recently plunk down $1 billion of non-tithing income to buy a mall, perhaps its financial footing is sufficiently sound to invest the surplus into some of the causes we have mentioned here.</p>
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		<title>By: maria</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/on-being-a-bookkeeper-in-zion/#comment-114269</link>
		<dc:creator>maria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jan 2006 11:15:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2805#comment-114269</guid>
		<description>Julie/Rosalynde:

Are you familiar with the Nestle/Carnation infant formula controversy in Latin America in the early 1970s?  My mother worked as a nurse in Nicaragua at that time so I was raised hearing how she and her co-workers spent countless hours attempting to convince impoverished women that their babies would NOT look like the healthy Nestle babies on all the billboards if they watered down the formula to make it last longer...

I tried to find a good article on the topic...but it&#039;s late and I&#039;m a little blurry-eyed.  Here are a couple links that give you the gist of what occurred:

http://www.babymilk.nestle.com/History/
http://www.breastfeedingbasics.org/cgi-bin/deliver.cgi/content/International/his_substitutes.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julie/Rosalynde:</p>
<p>Are you familiar with the Nestle/Carnation infant formula controversy in Latin America in the early 1970s?  My mother worked as a nurse in Nicaragua at that time so I was raised hearing how she and her co-workers spent countless hours attempting to convince impoverished women that their babies would NOT look like the healthy Nestle babies on all the billboards if they watered down the formula to make it last longer&#8230;</p>
<p>I tried to find a good article on the topic&#8230;but it&#8217;s late and I&#8217;m a little blurry-eyed.  Here are a couple links that give you the gist of what occurred:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.babymilk.nestle.com/History/" rel="nofollow">http://www.babymilk.nestle.com/History/</a><br />
<a href="http://www.breastfeedingbasics.org/cgi-bin/deliver.cgi/content/International/his_substitutes.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.breastfeedingbasics.org/cgi-bin/deliver.cgi/content/International/his_substitutes.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mark B.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/on-being-a-bookkeeper-in-zion/#comment-114260</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jan 2006 04:29:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2805#comment-114260</guid>
		<description>Sam B.  When I served in a bishopric and saw tithing figures, I never paid any attention to the amounts people paid.  I did notice the names of those who were faithful--especially the widows on fixed incomes--who were consistent in the payments of their tithes and offerings.  It strengthened my resolve to see the faithfulness of those who had so little of the world&#039;s goods.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam B.  When I served in a bishopric and saw tithing figures, I never paid any attention to the amounts people paid.  I did notice the names of those who were faithful&#8211;especially the widows on fixed incomes&#8211;who were consistent in the payments of their tithes and offerings.  It strengthened my resolve to see the faithfulness of those who had so little of the world&#8217;s goods.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Green</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/on-being-a-bookkeeper-in-zion/#comment-114140</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2005 06:18:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2805#comment-114140</guid>
		<description>Sam B.: When I was a financial clerk, I often multiplied tithing by ten in my head to see what numbers popped up. Nothing ever did that changed my opinion of any ward member in any way. It&#039;s not that I wasn&#039;t acutely attuned to income inequality at the time, or willing to nurture my sense of resentment--I was. But I never could remember if people paid weekly, biweekly, monthly, whatever, and I had no idea if people were paying full or partial or extra tithing. Mostly I was simply awed that so many people pay tithing at all. Other clerks may have different experiences, but the tithing I counted made very little impression on me, and I never said a single word, inside the clerk&#039;s office or outside of it, about the amount of any individual member&#039;s tithing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam B.: When I was a financial clerk, I often multiplied tithing by ten in my head to see what numbers popped up. Nothing ever did that changed my opinion of any ward member in any way. It&#8217;s not that I wasn&#8217;t acutely attuned to income inequality at the time, or willing to nurture my sense of resentment&#8211;I was. But I never could remember if people paid weekly, biweekly, monthly, whatever, and I had no idea if people were paying full or partial or extra tithing. Mostly I was simply awed that so many people pay tithing at all. Other clerks may have different experiences, but the tithing I counted made very little impression on me, and I never said a single word, inside the clerk&#8217;s office or outside of it, about the amount of any individual member&#8217;s tithing.</p>
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		<title>By: rich</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/on-being-a-bookkeeper-in-zion/#comment-114124</link>
		<dc:creator>rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2005 04:20:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2805#comment-114124</guid>
		<description>nice to see president hinckley&#039;s planning ahead with a perpetual education fund that is now laying the foundation for some serious financial backbone for the church in 3rd world countries.

it&#039;ll take time . . . but in time i bet that fund will spawn initiatives that will create self-sustaining springs capable of generating enormous wealth . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nice to see president hinckley&#8217;s planning ahead with a perpetual education fund that is now laying the foundation for some serious financial backbone for the church in 3rd world countries.</p>
<p>it&#8217;ll take time . . . but in time i bet that fund will spawn initiatives that will create self-sustaining springs capable of generating enormous wealth . . .</p>
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		<title>By: Bookslinger</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/on-being-a-bookkeeper-in-zion/#comment-114119</link>
		<dc:creator>Bookslinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2005 03:58:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2805#comment-114119</guid>
		<description>Razor (#48),  the estimates I&#039;ve seen, and my gut feel observation is that activity rate in the US is 40%, but overseas it is 25%, with an overall activity rate of about 1/3 or 33%.  Dividing sac meeting attendance by the number on the roster overstates the overall activity rate, because there are so many members in the &quot;lost file&quot; who don&#039;t appear on local  rosters.  Since children, most retirees, the unemployed, and many of the poor don&#039;t pay tithing, I think about 1/2 of active members are actual tithe payers.  Last time I worked the numbers, my guess was $3 billion/year from US tithing, and between $.5 and $1billion/year from overseas tithing.  Investment income is anyone&#039;s guess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Razor (#48),  the estimates I&#8217;ve seen, and my gut feel observation is that activity rate in the US is 40%, but overseas it is 25%, with an overall activity rate of about 1/3 or 33%.  Dividing sac meeting attendance by the number on the roster overstates the overall activity rate, because there are so many members in the &#8220;lost file&#8221; who don&#8217;t appear on local  rosters.  Since children, most retirees, the unemployed, and many of the poor don&#8217;t pay tithing, I think about 1/2 of active members are actual tithe payers.  Last time I worked the numbers, my guess was $3 billion/year from US tithing, and between $.5 and $1billion/year from overseas tithing.  Investment income is anyone&#8217;s guess.</p>
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		<title>By: sam b</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/on-being-a-bookkeeper-in-zion/#comment-114114</link>
		<dc:creator>sam b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2005 02:55:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2805#comment-114114</guid>
		<description>re: 47, I think you&#039;re remembering an ill-fated campaign (1970s?) to encourage the transition to formula for kids in the developing world that was at least partially driven by formula companies eager to have US aid and NGOs buy their products and &quot;addict&quot; whole new generations of consumers to formula.  Given the importance of diarrhea to childhood mortality and the protective effect of maternal antibodies, I would be surprised if a contemporary NGO were encouraging steps to eliminate breastfeeding (not shocked, but surprised).  I&#039;m not aware of any reliable indication that nutritional supplementation leads to less breastfeeding, and as far as overpopulation, there is reasonable data that educational options and economic independence (and we suspect though I believe the data are less reliable, adequate nutrition) are predictive of smaller families.  So be thoughtful about it, but fax as many powerbars as you can to the developing world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re: 47, I think you&#8217;re remembering an ill-fated campaign (1970s?) to encourage the transition to formula for kids in the developing world that was at least partially driven by formula companies eager to have US aid and NGOs buy their products and &#8220;addict&#8221; whole new generations of consumers to formula.  Given the importance of diarrhea to childhood mortality and the protective effect of maternal antibodies, I would be surprised if a contemporary NGO were encouraging steps to eliminate breastfeeding (not shocked, but surprised).  I&#8217;m not aware of any reliable indication that nutritional supplementation leads to less breastfeeding, and as far as overpopulation, there is reasonable data that educational options and economic independence (and we suspect though I believe the data are less reliable, adequate nutrition) are predictive of smaller families.  So be thoughtful about it, but fax as many powerbars as you can to the developing world.</p>
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		<title>By: sam b</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/on-being-a-bookkeeper-in-zion/#comment-114113</link>
		<dc:creator>sam b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2005 02:50:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2805#comment-114113</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s another aspect to local tithing practices which I think has a mixed potential. By donating locally, our income (in our income-obsessed society) becomes instantly known to the bishopric and the clerks of the ward.  I wonder whether there&#039;s an unconscious effect on the clerks.  It&#039;s been strange for me to transition into affluence while remaining a bleeding heart Social Gospel partisan, knowing that several people in the congregation can compare my aggressive anti-poverty stance with my apparent salary.  Or perhaps worse yet, that there may be new stress in interacting with me on the basis of a known salary.

I have no particular answer here.  At some level it&#039;s probably good not to have that full privacy, to know that someone in my community knows the forbidden secret of my salary, while at some level it has negative effects.

By way of full disclosure, I ended up donating directly to SLC, but not for the reasons above (though they occurred to me as I was making the change): my wonderful but absentminded bishop kept misplacing my BillPay automatic checks, and I had no interest in writing paper checks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s another aspect to local tithing practices which I think has a mixed potential. By donating locally, our income (in our income-obsessed society) becomes instantly known to the bishopric and the clerks of the ward.  I wonder whether there&#8217;s an unconscious effect on the clerks.  It&#8217;s been strange for me to transition into affluence while remaining a bleeding heart Social Gospel partisan, knowing that several people in the congregation can compare my aggressive anti-poverty stance with my apparent salary.  Or perhaps worse yet, that there may be new stress in interacting with me on the basis of a known salary.</p>
<p>I have no particular answer here.  At some level it&#8217;s probably good not to have that full privacy, to know that someone in my community knows the forbidden secret of my salary, while at some level it has negative effects.</p>
<p>By way of full disclosure, I ended up donating directly to SLC, but not for the reasons above (though they occurred to me as I was making the change): my wonderful but absentminded bishop kept misplacing my BillPay automatic checks, and I had no interest in writing paper checks.</p>
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		<title>By: Razorfish</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/on-being-a-bookkeeper-in-zion/#comment-114111</link>
		<dc:creator>Razorfish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2005 02:25:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2805#comment-114111</guid>
		<description>Earnings Power of the Church

I would argue that the Church is getting financially stronger each year as measured by its Balance Sheet (net assets ie land, buildings, other assets) and by its &quot;Income Statement&quot; ie annual revenue stream as measured by tithing contributions and growing membership.  If it were a publicly traded company the stock would be appreciating based on it&#039;s annual membership growth and associated increasing &quot;revenue stream.&quot;  The correlation of higher annual contributions with higher membership growth annually is a pretty safe directional bet.

What is the earnings power of the Church?  A few years back in Newsweek or Time, a writer based on research or other analytical estimates indicated / quessed that the Church&#039;s annual donations (tithing or other receipts) to be  around $5 billion per annum.  

If you assume the following:  12.2 million members, 26,773 congregations, with 46% in the US and 54% non-US, and 50% of members active, and 25% of all members temple recommend holders, and the average faithful member  is contributing 3.6K annually or earning between 36K and 72K for each family household (depending if both parents work).  And assume that US income is 4 times that of non-US income, that would translate to about $6.4 billion in annual tithing receipts.  I

That is a significant annual revenue stream by any estimation to keep the work moving forward in terms of 1) building new temples, 2) new meeting houses, 3) annual budgets for the ~27,000 wards around the world, 3) 300+ mission fields, and other operating budgets for the Church.

As impressive as $6.4 billion in annual revenues is (by the assumptions taken above), the earnings potential is maybe ~$25 billion annually if all members were active and faithful tithe payers (based on the hypothethical assumptions made above).  The reality is that most of the tithing from a typical ward comes from the 80 - 20 rule.  Most of the tithing comes from the stalwart 100 core members in each ward, and from them, most is concentrated in the wealthy 30 or so.    That&#039;s not to say that the contribution of the &quot;widow&#039;s mite&quot; is not important or significant (from a testimony or principle of tithing perspective), but rather that the lion&#039;s share of contributions are coming from a concentrated group of faithful (and wealthy) LDS people.

Obviously, nobody has any idea what the earnings power of the Church is, except a select few within Church headquarters, but analytically one can surmise (based on the assumptions above) what potential earnings power is possible from a set of assumptions made above.

Bottom line is, if the estimate above is reasonable, I don&#039;t think you could argue the Church has ever been bringing in greater tithing receipts than the present, and therefore, has never been financially stronger than the present.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Earnings Power of the Church</p>
<p>I would argue that the Church is getting financially stronger each year as measured by its Balance Sheet (net assets ie land, buildings, other assets) and by its &#8220;Income Statement&#8221; ie annual revenue stream as measured by tithing contributions and growing membership.  If it were a publicly traded company the stock would be appreciating based on it&#8217;s annual membership growth and associated increasing &#8220;revenue stream.&#8221;  The correlation of higher annual contributions with higher membership growth annually is a pretty safe directional bet.</p>
<p>What is the earnings power of the Church?  A few years back in Newsweek or Time, a writer based on research or other analytical estimates indicated / quessed that the Church&#8217;s annual donations (tithing or other receipts) to be  around $5 billion per annum.  </p>
<p>If you assume the following:  12.2 million members, 26,773 congregations, with 46% in the US and 54% non-US, and 50% of members active, and 25% of all members temple recommend holders, and the average faithful member  is contributing 3.6K annually or earning between 36K and 72K for each family household (depending if both parents work).  And assume that US income is 4 times that of non-US income, that would translate to about $6.4 billion in annual tithing receipts.  I</p>
<p>That is a significant annual revenue stream by any estimation to keep the work moving forward in terms of 1) building new temples, 2) new meeting houses, 3) annual budgets for the ~27,000 wards around the world, 3) 300+ mission fields, and other operating budgets for the Church.</p>
<p>As impressive as $6.4 billion in annual revenues is (by the assumptions taken above), the earnings potential is maybe ~$25 billion annually if all members were active and faithful tithe payers (based on the hypothethical assumptions made above).  The reality is that most of the tithing from a typical ward comes from the 80 &#8211; 20 rule.  Most of the tithing comes from the stalwart 100 core members in each ward, and from them, most is concentrated in the wealthy 30 or so.    That&#8217;s not to say that the contribution of the &#8220;widow&#8217;s mite&#8221; is not important or significant (from a testimony or principle of tithing perspective), but rather that the lion&#8217;s share of contributions are coming from a concentrated group of faithful (and wealthy) LDS people.</p>
<p>Obviously, nobody has any idea what the earnings power of the Church is, except a select few within Church headquarters, but analytically one can surmise (based on the assumptions above) what potential earnings power is possible from a set of assumptions made above.</p>
<p>Bottom line is, if the estimate above is reasonable, I don&#8217;t think you could argue the Church has ever been bringing in greater tithing receipts than the present, and therefore, has never been financially stronger than the present.</p>
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		<title>By: annegb</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/on-being-a-bookkeeper-in-zion/#comment-114106</link>
		<dc:creator>annegb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:42:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2805#comment-114106</guid>
		<description>Yes, Brian, #36, this is what I&#039;m saying.  I&#039;m glad to be doing my small but significant part to help those people.  I&#039;m not proud of myself, I&#039;m proud of us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Brian, #36, this is what I&#8217;m saying.  I&#8217;m glad to be doing my small but significant part to help those people.  I&#8217;m not proud of myself, I&#8217;m proud of us.</p>
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