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	<title>Comments on: JEF Sunday School Lesson #1 (Background)</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/jef-sunday-school-lesson-1-background/</link>
	<description>Truth will prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Jim F.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/jef-sunday-school-lesson-1-background/#comment-114375</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jan 2006 19:43:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ben S. Thanks very much. I should have guessed that was the essence of the criticism. 

I don&#039;t subscribe to the Sapir-Whorf thesis. I think it is a mistake to make the connection between thought and language causal. It is as reasonable to believe that experience causes language to be the way that it is as it is to claim that language causes us to experience as we do. Each is as reasonable an explanation as the other, but Benjamin Whorf chose the latter over the former though there is no reason to do so. His mistake, I think, was to try to turn correlation into causation. 

So, though I wouldn&#039;t agree that Jewish philosophical thinking was hampered by its grammar, I do think that it was different than Greek philosophy (something with which I presume no one would argue) and that the differences were concomitant with differences in language (the arguable point). Language is concomitant with our experience of the world because the two are indissociable, not because one causes the other. I need to look, however, at J. Barr. It looks like his criticism goes beyond merely disagreeing with the Sapir-Whorf thesis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben S. Thanks very much. I should have guessed that was the essence of the criticism. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t subscribe to the Sapir-Whorf thesis. I think it is a mistake to make the connection between thought and language causal. It is as reasonable to believe that experience causes language to be the way that it is as it is to claim that language causes us to experience as we do. Each is as reasonable an explanation as the other, but Benjamin Whorf chose the latter over the former though there is no reason to do so. His mistake, I think, was to try to turn correlation into causation. </p>
<p>So, though I wouldn&#8217;t agree that Jewish philosophical thinking was hampered by its grammar, I do think that it was different than Greek philosophy (something with which I presume no one would argue) and that the differences were concomitant with differences in language (the arguable point). Language is concomitant with our experience of the world because the two are indissociable, not because one causes the other. I need to look, however, at J. Barr. It looks like his criticism goes beyond merely disagreeing with the Sapir-Whorf thesis.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben S.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/jef-sunday-school-lesson-1-background/#comment-114352</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jan 2006 16:45:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Jim, I found one of the asides. 

&quot;Another popular linguistic theory, known as the Sapirâ€“Whorf hypothesis, also tended to distract from a rigorous consideration of semantics. This hypothesis also influenced some theological thinking. â€œSapirâ€“Whorfâ€? is defined by its principal advocate as follows: 

â€œWe see and hear and otherwise experience very largely as we do because the language habits of our community predispose certain choices of interpretation.â€?ï»¿ï»¿

But the notion that differences in worldview are somehow imposed by the â€œlinguistic systems in our mindsâ€? has largely been discredited both by the failure to support this idea with actual language evidence and the regrettable consequences of assuming that intellectual superiority is achieved by an ethnocentric language system.

It was sometimes argued that Jewish philosophical thinking was hampered by the limitations of Hebrew as a language for speculative thought. But Arabic, and ultimately Hebrew, philosophy flourished, adapting syntax and vocabulary to meet their needs. J. Barrâ€™s well-known criticism of the assumed contrast between Greek speculative and Hebrew concrete-image thought has countered, for example, the conclusions of T. Boman in his &lt;i&gt;Hebrew Thought Compared with Greek.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;ï»¿

Walter R. Bodine and Monica S. Devens, Revell, E.J., Greenstein, Edward L., Linguistics and Biblical Hebrew (Winona Lake, Indiana: Eisenbrauns, 1992, 1998), 126.

They refer you to J. Barr&#039;s &lt;i&gt; The Semantics of Biblical Language &lt;/i&gt;(Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1961), which I also haven&#039;t read yet, but is in my pile next to me on the desk. Barr lists Boman in about 10 different places in the index. Choosing one reference at random, I found the following. 

&quot;Boman&#039;s kind of interpretation of the language... depends to a great extent on the logico-grammatical unclarities of the older [Hebrew] grammars and evaporates  with the stricter method of modern linguistics. We may summarize then by saying that Boman has not succeeded in his attempt to relate teh nominal sentence in Hebrew to the Hebrew mode of thinking in totatlities and not making distinctions.&quot; p. 67.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim, I found one of the asides. </p>
<p>&#8220;Another popular linguistic theory, known as the Sapirâ€“Whorf hypothesis, also tended to distract from a rigorous consideration of semantics. This hypothesis also influenced some theological thinking. â€œSapirâ€“Whorfâ€? is defined by its principal advocate as follows: </p>
<p>â€œWe see and hear and otherwise experience very largely as we do because the language habits of our community predispose certain choices of interpretation.â€?ï»¿ï»¿</p>
<p>But the notion that differences in worldview are somehow imposed by the â€œlinguistic systems in our mindsâ€? has largely been discredited both by the failure to support this idea with actual language evidence and the regrettable consequences of assuming that intellectual superiority is achieved by an ethnocentric language system.</p>
<p>It was sometimes argued that Jewish philosophical thinking was hampered by the limitations of Hebrew as a language for speculative thought. But Arabic, and ultimately Hebrew, philosophy flourished, adapting syntax and vocabulary to meet their needs. J. Barrâ€™s well-known criticism of the assumed contrast between Greek speculative and Hebrew concrete-image thought has countered, for example, the conclusions of T. Boman in his <i>Hebrew Thought Compared with Greek.</i>&#8220;ï»¿</p>
<p>Walter R. Bodine and Monica S. Devens, Revell, E.J., Greenstein, Edward L., Linguistics and Biblical Hebrew (Winona Lake, Indiana: Eisenbrauns, 1992, 1998), 126.</p>
<p>They refer you to J. Barr&#8217;s <i> The Semantics of Biblical Language </i>(Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1961), which I also haven&#8217;t read yet, but is in my pile next to me on the desk. Barr lists Boman in about 10 different places in the index. Choosing one reference at random, I found the following. </p>
<p>&#8220;Boman&#8217;s kind of interpretation of the language&#8230; depends to a great extent on the logico-grammatical unclarities of the older [Hebrew] grammars and evaporates  with the stricter method of modern linguistics. We may summarize then by saying that Boman has not succeeded in his attempt to relate teh nominal sentence in Hebrew to the Hebrew mode of thinking in totatlities and not making distinctions.&#8221; p. 67.</p>
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		<title>By: Christian Y. Cardall</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/jef-sunday-school-lesson-1-background/#comment-114073</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian Y. Cardall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Dec 2005 21:25:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Jim, thanks for this interesting introduction. Since our exchange on &quot;scriptural theology&quot; I have a new interest in watching your Sunday School posts to see clues on how you put this into practice. This post further explains some things I had wondered about. (I still want to write more related to that exchange, and have some notes to do so, but as usual have been distracted by other topics and squeaky wheels.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim, thanks for this interesting introduction. Since our exchange on &#8220;scriptural theology&#8221; I have a new interest in watching your Sunday School posts to see clues on how you put this into practice. This post further explains some things I had wondered about. (I still want to write more related to that exchange, and have some notes to do so, but as usual have been distracted by other topics and squeaky wheels.)</p>
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		<title>By: Jim F.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/jef-sunday-school-lesson-1-background/#comment-114062</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:11:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ben, I&#039;d be interested in reading the criticism, so if you think of them or come across them again, could you please give me a reference? I&#039;ve liked Bowman&#039;s book because it is so accessible that I can recommend it to students, but I&#039;m not enough of an expert on these things to make a decision about how good it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben, I&#8217;d be interested in reading the criticism, so if you think of them or come across them again, could you please give me a reference? I&#8217;ve liked Bowman&#8217;s book because it is so accessible that I can recommend it to students, but I&#8217;m not enough of an expert on these things to make a decision about how good it is.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben S.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/jef-sunday-school-lesson-1-background/#comment-113993</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Dec 2005 05:29:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2806#comment-113993</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve read several asides severely criticizing Bowman&#039;s work on Hebrew vs. Greek thought. Apparently, his work has not been well received, but I can&#039;t give any specific reasons since I haven&#039;t read much of it myself, nor any dedicated reviews. 

I&#039;m looking forward to the OT this year :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve read several asides severely criticizing Bowman&#8217;s work on Hebrew vs. Greek thought. Apparently, his work has not been well received, but I can&#8217;t give any specific reasons since I haven&#8217;t read much of it myself, nor any dedicated reviews. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m looking forward to the OT this year :)</p>
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		<title>By: Jim F.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/jef-sunday-school-lesson-1-background/#comment-113987</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Dec 2005 04:26:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2806#comment-113987</guid>
		<description>Jonathan. I&#039;m afraid I don&#039;t have a particularly good answer to your question. I&#039;ve written about it somewhat myself in an essay, &quot;Scripture as Incarnation&quot; in &lt;i&gt;Historicity and the Latter-day Saint Scriptures&lt;/i&gt;, edited by Paul Y. Hoskisson, 17-61 (Provo, Utah: Religious Studies Center Brigham Young University, 2001). You are likely to find some of the discussion in things by those influenced by Lacan (though I&#039;m not a Lacanian). If I recall correctly, Ricoeur also discusses this in &lt;i&gt;Reading the Bible&lt;/i&gt;. Northrop Frye&#039;s &lt;i&gt;The Great Code&lt;/i&gt; is flawed, but helpful. Perhaps most useful to me was Hans Frei&#039;s &lt;i&gt;The Eclipse of Biblical Narrative&lt;/i&gt;. That is perhaps the best place to begin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan. I&#8217;m afraid I don&#8217;t have a particularly good answer to your question. I&#8217;ve written about it somewhat myself in an essay, &#8220;Scripture as Incarnation&#8221; in <i>Historicity and the Latter-day Saint Scriptures</i>, edited by Paul Y. Hoskisson, 17-61 (Provo, Utah: Religious Studies Center Brigham Young University, 2001). You are likely to find some of the discussion in things by those influenced by Lacan (though I&#8217;m not a Lacanian). If I recall correctly, Ricoeur also discusses this in <i>Reading the Bible</i>. Northrop Frye&#8217;s <i>The Great Code</i> is flawed, but helpful. Perhaps most useful to me was Hans Frei&#8217;s <i>The Eclipse of Biblical Narrative</i>. That is perhaps the best place to begin.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Green</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/jef-sunday-school-lesson-1-background/#comment-113986</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Dec 2005 04:14:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Jim, I want to read more on the division between writing history before and after 1500. Where&#039;s the first place to look?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim, I want to read more on the division between writing history before and after 1500. Where&#8217;s the first place to look?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/jef-sunday-school-lesson-1-background/#comment-113977</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Dec 2005 03:08:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>These are fascinating insights. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These are fascinating insights. Thanks.</p>
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