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	<title>Comments on: Theology and Idolatry</title>
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	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/theology-and-idolatry/#comment-106995</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2005 04:22:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2702#comment-106995</guid>
		<description>Jim, since you are going away, you might be interested in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.libertypages.com/clark/10653.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this link&lt;/a&gt;.  It&#039;s mainly me rambling a bit about Levinas.  However at the end I have some very good links on Levinas and Kabbalah and the Talmud.  It pointed out a book I&#039;m definitely putting on my to get list for someday.  Ajzenstat, Oona. Driven Back to the Sources: The Premodern Sources of Levinasâ€™s Postmodernism, â€œThe Kabbalah and Deconstruction.â€? Duquesne University Press 2001.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim, since you are going away, you might be interested in <a href="http://www.libertypages.com/clark/10653.html" rel="nofollow">this link</a>.  It&#8217;s mainly me rambling a bit about Levinas.  However at the end I have some very good links on Levinas and Kabbalah and the Talmud.  It pointed out a book I&#8217;m definitely putting on my to get list for someday.  Ajzenstat, Oona. Driven Back to the Sources: The Premodern Sources of Levinasâ€™s Postmodernism, â€œThe Kabbalah and Deconstruction.â€? Duquesne University Press 2001.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim F.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/theology-and-idolatry/#comment-106953</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2005 23:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ben: I&#039;m getting ready to leave town for several days--without internet access--so I don&#039;t have time to say much and won&#039;t for a few days, but your way of putting it works quite well for me. 

You say, &quot;Just because it hasnâ€™t been done yet, who says one canâ€™t think systematically, in a way that is solidly connected with lived experience?&quot; Two reasons: (1) in 1800 years, we&#039;ve not seen one, and (2) what you see in the substance of Clarks remark, (23). 

Clark: I think that is a very nice way of putting it, though I&#039;d not thought of it. Heidegger&#039;s use of the everyday is not quite what I mean because it has implications--such as inauthenticity--that I would prefer to avoid. Nevertheless, the language of systematic philosophy, indeed of most philosophy, is technologicall (in a broad sense) and scripture is not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben: I&#8217;m getting ready to leave town for several days&#8211;without internet access&#8211;so I don&#8217;t have time to say much and won&#8217;t for a few days, but your way of putting it works quite well for me. </p>
<p>You say, &#8220;Just because it hasnâ€™t been done yet, who says one canâ€™t think systematically, in a way that is solidly connected with lived experience?&#8221; Two reasons: (1) in 1800 years, we&#8217;ve not seen one, and (2) what you see in the substance of Clarks remark, (23). </p>
<p>Clark: I think that is a very nice way of putting it, though I&#8217;d not thought of it. Heidegger&#8217;s use of the everyday is not quite what I mean because it has implications&#8211;such as inauthenticity&#8211;that I would prefer to avoid. Nevertheless, the language of systematic philosophy, indeed of most philosophy, is technologicall (in a broad sense) and scripture is not.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/theology-and-idolatry/#comment-106929</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2005 20:55:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2702#comment-106929</guid>
		<description>Jim, not to take things off in too philosophical direction again, but...  (Apologies to all readers bored with philosophy)

Are you getting at Heidegger&#039;s notion of averageness or everydayness?  That theological talk, by adopting a technical jargon, loses connection to that everydayness and thus in a sense Daesin in its authentic mode?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim, not to take things off in too philosophical direction again, but&#8230;  (Apologies to all readers bored with philosophy)</p>
<p>Are you getting at Heidegger&#8217;s notion of averageness or everydayness?  That theological talk, by adopting a technical jargon, loses connection to that everydayness and thus in a sense Daesin in its authentic mode?</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Huff</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/theology-and-idolatry/#comment-106926</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Huff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2005 20:40:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2702#comment-106926</guid>
		<description>Okay, Jim, but I&#039;m not sure what &quot;concepts&quot; means now to you, unless it&#039;s just something like &quot;wrongly over-philosophized thoughts&quot;. But if that&#039;s what it means, then your original post becomes uninformative. Surely that&#039;s not what you mean; perhaps you can explain more what it is about the concepts used in systematic theology that differentiates them from the thoughts that go with more ordinary language usage in such a way as to make them more problematic to use regarding God.

Why are concepts (in your sense), as human constructs, more unreliable than words (and the thoughts that go with them)?

Meantime, let me try something: Philosophers have a tendency to make up meanings for words that have little to do with lived experience. The words used in the scriptures (bread, fish, father) are firmly embedded in human lived experience. Words firmly embedded in lived experience are more likely to be putting us in touch with something real, as opposed to figments of our imaginations. Philosophers&#039; words by contrast often merely refer to fictions. If we are trying to be faithful to our experiences of God, then we should stick with words like &lt;i&gt;bread&lt;/i&gt;, &lt;i&gt;fish&lt;/i&gt;, and &lt;i&gt;father&lt;/i&gt;, more than words like &lt;i&gt;omnipotent&lt;/i&gt;, or &lt;i&gt;metaphysical substance&lt;/i&gt;.

If your thinking is something like that, well, I&#039;m sympathetic. But I don&#039;t see that this has any more than a historically coincidental connection with systematic theology. Just because it hasn&#039;t been done yet, who says one can&#039;t think systematically, in a way that is solidly connected with lived experience? I think our sample size for judging tendencies of systematic theology is too small to make very good generalizations. We have basically one tradition to go by, and there are a lot of other explanations for their mistakes than the fact that they were trying to think systematically.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, Jim, but I&#8217;m not sure what &#8220;concepts&#8221; means now to you, unless it&#8217;s just something like &#8220;wrongly over-philosophized thoughts&#8221;. But if that&#8217;s what it means, then your original post becomes uninformative. Surely that&#8217;s not what you mean; perhaps you can explain more what it is about the concepts used in systematic theology that differentiates them from the thoughts that go with more ordinary language usage in such a way as to make them more problematic to use regarding God.</p>
<p>Why are concepts (in your sense), as human constructs, more unreliable than words (and the thoughts that go with them)?</p>
<p>Meantime, let me try something: Philosophers have a tendency to make up meanings for words that have little to do with lived experience. The words used in the scriptures (bread, fish, father) are firmly embedded in human lived experience. Words firmly embedded in lived experience are more likely to be putting us in touch with something real, as opposed to figments of our imaginations. Philosophers&#8217; words by contrast often merely refer to fictions. If we are trying to be faithful to our experiences of God, then we should stick with words like <i>bread</i>, <i>fish</i>, and <i>father</i>, more than words like <i>omnipotent</i>, or <i>metaphysical substance</i>.</p>
<p>If your thinking is something like that, well, I&#8217;m sympathetic. But I don&#8217;t see that this has any more than a historically coincidental connection with systematic theology. Just because it hasn&#8217;t been done yet, who says one can&#8217;t think systematically, in a way that is solidly connected with lived experience? I think our sample size for judging tendencies of systematic theology is too small to make very good generalizations. We have basically one tradition to go by, and there are a lot of other explanations for their mistakes than the fact that they were trying to think systematically.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim F.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/theology-and-idolatry/#comment-106925</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2005 20:23:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Clark, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the help.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clark, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the help.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim F.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/theology-and-idolatry/#comment-106924</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2005 20:22:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2702#comment-106924</guid>
		<description>Ben Huff: Thanks very much! This is very helpful. We are using the word &quot;concepts&quot; differently. I don&#039;t take all words to refer to or be associated with concepts. Rather, I think words generally just mean by meaning in context through usage, and that usage isn&#039;t conceptual (except, perhaps, when subjected to a meta-analysis).

However, I also think that in philosophy and in philosophical theology we create concepts of various kinds that then have an existence of their own. Ordinary words aren&#039;t human constructs in the same way that philosophical terms are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben Huff: Thanks very much! This is very helpful. We are using the word &#8220;concepts&#8221; differently. I don&#8217;t take all words to refer to or be associated with concepts. Rather, I think words generally just mean by meaning in context through usage, and that usage isn&#8217;t conceptual (except, perhaps, when subjected to a meta-analysis).</p>
<p>However, I also think that in philosophy and in philosophical theology we create concepts of various kinds that then have an existence of their own. Ordinary words aren&#8217;t human constructs in the same way that philosophical terms are.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/theology-and-idolatry/#comment-106922</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2005 20:18:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2702#comment-106922</guid>
		<description>Sorry, by absolute I meant the way the term was used in Judaism not Derrida and company.  Rather I meant that the &lt;i&gt;meaning&lt;/i&gt; of the term in Judaism corresponds to meanings one can find under other names in Derrida and company.  (I&#039;d have to double check Levinas as I seem to recall him using the term, but it&#039;s been a long time since I read him last and I may be misrecalling)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, by absolute I meant the way the term was used in Judaism not Derrida and company.  Rather I meant that the <i>meaning</i> of the term in Judaism corresponds to meanings one can find under other names in Derrida and company.  (I&#8217;d have to double check Levinas as I seem to recall him using the term, but it&#8217;s been a long time since I read him last and I may be misrecalling)</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Huff</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/theology-and-idolatry/#comment-106915</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Huff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2005 19:59:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2702#comment-106915</guid>
		<description>: )
Okay, Jim, let me try again. 

You said:
&lt;i&gt;To understand the Divine in terms of concepts and their relations to each otherâ€“in other words, in terms of knowledge in the quasi-mathematical terms in which knowledge has been construed since the Enlightenmentâ€“is to understand the Divine through a human construct. If I worship the construct, that which I know and understand, then I worship an idol.&lt;/i&gt;

The reason you offer for why systematic theology is especially likely to lead to idolatry is that the concepts it works with are human constructs.

But the scriptures are constructed of human words. I don&#039;t see that these words are any less human constructs than the concepts of systematic theology. Also, words are naturally understood as invoking concepts, though not necessarily the same concepts as those used in systematic theology. I&#039;m not sure what to make of the difference between a word and a concept as such (except by recognizing cases of equivocation), or how to understand words without using concepts (e.g. a concept of faith invoked by &quot;faith&quot;).

Could it be that your worry is that certain kinds of concepts are more likely to misrepresent God than others? For example, concepts that are defined by tidy definitions, as contrasted with concepts whose content is filled in by an accumulation and digestion of experience?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>: )<br />
Okay, Jim, let me try again. </p>
<p>You said:<br />
<i>To understand the Divine in terms of concepts and their relations to each otherâ€“in other words, in terms of knowledge in the quasi-mathematical terms in which knowledge has been construed since the Enlightenmentâ€“is to understand the Divine through a human construct. If I worship the construct, that which I know and understand, then I worship an idol.</i></p>
<p>The reason you offer for why systematic theology is especially likely to lead to idolatry is that the concepts it works with are human constructs.</p>
<p>But the scriptures are constructed of human words. I don&#8217;t see that these words are any less human constructs than the concepts of systematic theology. Also, words are naturally understood as invoking concepts, though not necessarily the same concepts as those used in systematic theology. I&#8217;m not sure what to make of the difference between a word and a concept as such (except by recognizing cases of equivocation), or how to understand words without using concepts (e.g. a concept of faith invoked by &#8220;faith&#8221;).</p>
<p>Could it be that your worry is that certain kinds of concepts are more likely to misrepresent God than others? For example, concepts that are defined by tidy definitions, as contrasted with concepts whose content is filled in by an accumulation and digestion of experience?</p>
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		<title>By: Jim F</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/theology-and-idolatry/#comment-106914</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim F</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2005 19:53:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2702#comment-106914</guid>
		<description>Clark, There&#039;s no question that Levinas has been heavily influenced by his own studies of the rabbis. However, except the Hegelian notion or the traditional Christian notion, I don&#039;t know what &quot;the Absolute&quot; refers to in Derrida, Levinas, and Heidegger. Levinas uses the adjective &quot;absolute&quot; frequently to describe the other. Is that what you are talking about? Can you expand more on what you have in mind when you refer to these rabbinical ideas of the absolute?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clark, There&#8217;s no question that Levinas has been heavily influenced by his own studies of the rabbis. However, except the Hegelian notion or the traditional Christian notion, I don&#8217;t know what &#8220;the Absolute&#8221; refers to in Derrida, Levinas, and Heidegger. Levinas uses the adjective &#8220;absolute&#8221; frequently to describe the other. Is that what you are talking about? Can you expand more on what you have in mind when you refer to these rabbinical ideas of the absolute?</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/theology-and-idolatry/#comment-106890</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2005 18:20:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2702#comment-106890</guid>
		<description>Jim, I actually think that it is fairly ubiquitous in many forms of Jewish theology.  Indeed I think Levinas was in many ways espousing rather common rabbinical ideas in his writings.  The Jews never had the limitations that the Christians did due to &lt;i&gt;creation ex nihilo&lt;/i&gt;.  I think this significantly affected how neoPlatonism was used and considered in their faith.  You do find the term &quot;the absolute&quot; used by Rabbis, especially famous ones like Rabbi Azriel of Gerona for instance.  The absolute for these Rabbis was the &lt;i&gt;En Sof&lt;/i&gt; and corresponds pretty well to similar concepts in Derrida, Levinas and even Heidegger.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim, I actually think that it is fairly ubiquitous in many forms of Jewish theology.  Indeed I think Levinas was in many ways espousing rather common rabbinical ideas in his writings.  The Jews never had the limitations that the Christians did due to <i>creation ex nihilo</i>.  I think this significantly affected how neoPlatonism was used and considered in their faith.  You do find the term &#8220;the absolute&#8221; used by Rabbis, especially famous ones like Rabbi Azriel of Gerona for instance.  The absolute for these Rabbis was the <i>En Sof</i> and corresponds pretty well to similar concepts in Derrida, Levinas and even Heidegger.</p>
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