Comments on: The Greatest Virtue on Earth http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/the-greatest-virtue-on-earth/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 12 Feb 2012 06:09:37 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Mister Snitch! http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/the-greatest-virtue-on-earth/#comment-110986 Mister Snitch! Wed, 07 Dec 2005 02:59:11 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2746#comment-110986 I thought the capacity to love was the greatest virtue. I thought the capacity to love was the greatest virtue.

]]> By: manaen http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/the-greatest-virtue-on-earth/#comment-110261 manaen Fri, 02 Dec 2005 07:30:10 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2746#comment-110261 29 "Perhaps it is this quality of forgiveness that makes it, definitionally, outside of the concept of justice. It is not the opposite of justice. That would be injustice. Forgiveness is an act that deems justice and justification irrelevant." I agree -- forgiveness is an act of grace. So it is with God's forgiveness: grace, not justice. 29
“Perhaps it is this quality of forgiveness that makes it, definitionally, outside of the concept of justice. It is not the opposite of justice. That would be injustice. Forgiveness is an act that deems justice and justification irrelevant.”

I agree — forgiveness is an act of grace.

So it is with God’s forgiveness: grace, not justice.

]]> By: manaen http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/the-greatest-virtue-on-earth/#comment-110260 manaen Fri, 02 Dec 2005 07:26:33 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2746#comment-110260 29 "Perhaps it is this quality of forgiveness that makes it, definitionally, outside of the concept of justice. It is not the opposite of justice. That would be injustice. Forgiveness is an act that deems justice and justification irrelevant." I agree -- forgiveness is an act of *grace*. So it is with God's forgiveness: grace, not justice. 29
“Perhaps it is this quality of forgiveness that makes it, definitionally, outside of the concept of justice. It is not the opposite of justice. That would be injustice. Forgiveness is an act that deems justice and justification irrelevant.”

I agree — forgiveness is an act of *grace*.

So it is with God’s forgiveness: grace, not justice.

]]> By: manaen http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/the-greatest-virtue-on-earth/#comment-110259 manaen Fri, 02 Dec 2005 07:25:55 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2746#comment-110259 29 "Perhaps it is this quality of forgiveness that makes it, definitionally, outside of the concept of justice. It is not the opposite of justice. That would be injustice. Forgiveness is an act that deems justice and justification irrelevant." I agree -- forgiveness is an act of *grace*. So it is with God's forgiveness: grace, not justice. 29
“Perhaps it is this quality of forgiveness that makes it, definitionally, outside of the concept of justice. It is not the opposite of justice. That would be injustice. Forgiveness is an act that deems justice and justification irrelevant.”

I agree — forgiveness is an act of *grace*.

So it is with God’s forgiveness: grace, not justice.

]]> By: greenfrog http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/the-greatest-virtue-on-earth/#comment-110243 greenfrog Fri, 02 Dec 2005 04:24:18 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2746#comment-110243 <i>#8: Does accident vs. intentional crime make a difference?</i> Typically, yes. Should it? I do not believe so, but I'm not certain. Intent is an important element in human justice systems, because we intend justice systems to incent particular behaviors, excuse others. But the very quality of forgiveness depends upon the very lack of "justification" for the forgiveness -- the lack of any "rationale" for forgiveness. If the action is justified, then forgiveness is not needed. It is only if the action is unjustified that forgiveness is relevant. Perhaps it is this quality of forgiveness that makes it, definitionally, outside of the concept of justice. It is not the opposite of justice. That would be injustice. Forgiveness is an act that deems justice and justification irrelevant. In that sort of context, scienter of any quantum -- negligence, recklessness, or fully intentional -- has no bearing on the reason for forgiveness, which has nothing whatsoever to do with justification. #8: Does accident vs. intentional crime make a difference?

Typically, yes.

Should it? I do not believe so, but I’m not certain.

Intent is an important element in human justice systems, because we intend justice systems to incent particular behaviors, excuse others.

But the very quality of forgiveness depends upon the very lack of “justification” for the forgiveness — the lack of any “rationale” for forgiveness. If the action is justified, then forgiveness is not needed. It is only if the action is unjustified that forgiveness is relevant.

Perhaps it is this quality of forgiveness that makes it, definitionally, outside of the concept of justice. It is not the opposite of justice. That would be injustice. Forgiveness is an act that deems justice and justification irrelevant.

In that sort of context, scienter of any quantum — negligence, recklessness, or fully intentional — has no bearing on the reason for forgiveness, which has nothing whatsoever to do with justification.

]]> By: Elisabeth http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/the-greatest-virtue-on-earth/#comment-110230 Elisabeth Thu, 01 Dec 2005 22:54:51 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2746#comment-110230 How do we avoid the frustration of the same people continually driving us crazy? By sticking labels on them and putting them into their corresponding boxes, so we can close up the box and we don’t have to look inside anymore. So, while I agree that forgiveness is a cardinal virtue, I think humility is just as important in our interactions with others (real or imaginary). Orson Scott Card wrote an interesting book about our inability to judge one another fairly called “Speaker for the Dead�. The Speakers research the dead person's life and then give a speech that speaks for the dead, describing the dead person's life from the dead person’s perspective. I’ve thought that it would be helpful if you could hire a Speaker for the Living – this would certainly help clear things up. How do we avoid the frustration of the same people continually driving us crazy? By sticking labels on them and putting them into their corresponding boxes, so we can close up the box and we don’t have to look inside anymore.

So, while I agree that forgiveness is a cardinal virtue, I think humility is just as important in our interactions with others (real or imaginary). Orson Scott Card wrote an interesting book about our inability to judge one another fairly called “Speaker for the Deadâ€?. The Speakers research the dead person’s life and then give a speech that speaks for the dead, describing the dead person’s life from the dead person’s perspective. I’ve thought that it would be helpful if you could hire a Speaker for the Living – this would certainly help clear things up.

]]> By: manaen http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/the-greatest-virtue-on-earth/#comment-110215 manaen Thu, 01 Dec 2005 21:33:50 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2746#comment-110215 25 Adam, thanks for supplying what I did miss in my #24. I couldn't find the original positng for ‘“Does accident vs. intentional crime make a difference?’ No.�, so I responded with no context. If the context was whether accident/intent matters about whether we forgive, I would say ideally, "No, we are to forgive all, God forgives who he will." but that it is more understandable that someone would fall short of the ideal for not forgiving intentional offense. 26, greenfrog, amen! I've been pondering lately the ascension regarding other people of of serve --> love --> be at-one. Christ's intercessory prayer asks that we be one amongst ourselves as well as one with God. As in Dennis Rasmussen's comment cited in #5, "The chain of evil is broken for good when a pure and loving heart absorbs a hurt and forbears to hurt in return." greenfrog ~ greenforgive? 25
Adam, thanks for supplying what I did miss in my #24. I couldn’t find the original positng for ‘“Does accident vs. intentional crime make a difference?’ No.â€?, so I responded with no context. If the context was whether accident/intent matters about whether we forgive, I would say ideally, “No, we are to forgive all, God forgives who he will.” but that it is more understandable that someone would fall short of the ideal for not forgiving intentional offense.

26,
greenfrog, amen! I’ve been pondering lately the ascension regarding other people of of serve –> love –> be at-one. Christ’s intercessory prayer asks that we be one amongst ourselves as well as one with God.

As in Dennis Rasmussen’s comment cited in #5, “The chain of evil is broken for good when a pure and loving heart absorbs a hurt and forbears to hurt in return.”

greenfrog ~ greenforgive?

]]> By: greenfrog http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/the-greatest-virtue-on-earth/#comment-110212 greenfrog Thu, 01 Dec 2005 21:10:47 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2746#comment-110212 In my non-standard view of atonement, both repentance and forgiveness are necessary elements of it. Without either one, the two (or more) who have become separated (by, definitionally, sin) cannot become "one." But as extending forgiveness to an offender even in advance of repentance tends to inspire repentance (or at least to eliminate the "it's hopeless, s/he'll never forgive me, why try?" barrier to repentance), I think I agree with Pres. Hinckley on its pre-eminence. The verb "to forgive" is, in my view, the action by an individual that is most akin to the verb "to atone." If we are commanded to be like Christ, absorbing the harm from and forgiving others of their offenses should be our highest aspiration. In my non-standard view of atonement, both repentance and forgiveness are necessary elements of it. Without either one, the two (or more) who have become separated (by, definitionally, sin) cannot become “one.” But as extending forgiveness to an offender even in advance of repentance tends to inspire repentance (or at least to eliminate the “it’s hopeless, s/he’ll never forgive me, why try?” barrier to repentance), I think I agree with Pres. Hinckley on its pre-eminence.

The verb “to forgive” is, in my view, the action by an individual that is most akin to the verb “to atone.”

If we are commanded to be like Christ, absorbing the harm from and forgiving others of their offenses should be our highest aspiration.

]]> By: Adam Greenwood http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/the-greatest-virtue-on-earth/#comment-110174 Adam Greenwood Thu, 01 Dec 2005 19:48:31 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2746#comment-110174 I agree with Manaen. I think its worse to not forgive someone who accidentally wronged you than it is to not forgive someone who intentionally wronged you. I agree with Manaen. I think its worse to not forgive someone who accidentally wronged you than it is to not forgive someone who intentionally wronged you.

]]> By: manaen http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/the-greatest-virtue-on-earth/#comment-110170 manaen Thu, 01 Dec 2005 19:28:08 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2746#comment-110170 23 " '“Does accident vs. intentional crime make a difference?' No." Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't accident/intent the difference between murder/manslaughter or sin/mistake or why unaccountable children aren't held responsible for what would be sins by accountable adults? 23
” ‘“Does accident vs. intentional crime make a difference?’ No.”

Maybe I’m missing something, but isn’t accident/intent the difference between murder/manslaughter or sin/mistake or why unaccountable children aren’t held responsible for what would be sins by accountable adults?

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