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	<title>Comments on: Illegal Brothers and Sisters</title>
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	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: linda</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/illegal-brothers-and-sisters/#comment-135543</link>
		<dc:creator>linda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 May 2006 14:34:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I DON&#039;T KNOW ABOUT ALL THESE OPINIONS,BUT I WILL TELL YOU THIS;I AM A MEMBER OF THE LORD&#039;S CHURCH FOR 28 YEARS AND IN THAT TIME I WAS MARRIRD TO A PRIESTHOOD HOLDER WHO BEAT ME,MOLESTED MY DAUGHTER AND WAS GENERALLY THE INCARNATION OF SATAN,BUT HAD EVERYONE IN OUR WARD CONVICED HE WAS A MAN OF GOD.DID IT TURN ME AGAINST THE CHURCH?NO ,MY TESTAMONY HAS GROWN.AND FOR THE LAST 13 YEARS I HAVE BEEN MARRIED TO AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT FROM MEXICO WHO TREATS ME THE WAY CHRIST TREATS THE CHURCH.HE WAS DEPORTED IN 1998 AND WALKED 100 MILES ACROSS THE BORDER TO COME HOME TO US.HE HAS LOVED ME,MY GROWN CHILDREN,MY GRANDCHILDREN,AND IS FAITHFUL AND TRUE-AND IS 10 YEARS YOUNGER THAN ME.I BROUGHT HIM BACK ACROSS THE BORDER AND I WOULD DO IT AGAIN IF I HAVE TOO.WE HAVE BEEN THRU MUCH AND HAVE TRUSTED THE LORD IN ALL THINGS.I LIVE IN GEORGIA AND THE LAW HERE NOW IS HORRIBLE.THE ONLY LAW HE HAS BROKEN IS BEING HERE W/OUT PAPERS.AND MY EX-HE IS STILL OUT THERE CAPABLE OF HARMING OTHER WOMEN AND CHILDREN-BUT AT LEAST HE&#039;S LEGAL.I KNOW  THIS CHURCH IS TRUE AND MY LIFE BELONGS TO OUR SAVIOR.THER ARE THREE THINGS IN THIS LIFE I WILL FIGHT AND DIE FOR-MY LORD,MY HUSBAND,AND MY FAMILY.WHAT ELSE DO WE HAVE,IF IT&#039;S NOT ETERNAL,WHAT WORTH IS IT.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I DON&#8217;T KNOW ABOUT ALL THESE OPINIONS,BUT I WILL TELL YOU THIS;I AM A MEMBER OF THE LORD&#8217;S CHURCH FOR 28 YEARS AND IN THAT TIME I WAS MARRIRD TO A PRIESTHOOD HOLDER WHO BEAT ME,MOLESTED MY DAUGHTER AND WAS GENERALLY THE INCARNATION OF SATAN,BUT HAD EVERYONE IN OUR WARD CONVICED HE WAS A MAN OF GOD.DID IT TURN ME AGAINST THE CHURCH?NO ,MY TESTAMONY HAS GROWN.AND FOR THE LAST 13 YEARS I HAVE BEEN MARRIED TO AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT FROM MEXICO WHO TREATS ME THE WAY CHRIST TREATS THE CHURCH.HE WAS DEPORTED IN 1998 AND WALKED 100 MILES ACROSS THE BORDER TO COME HOME TO US.HE HAS LOVED ME,MY GROWN CHILDREN,MY GRANDCHILDREN,AND IS FAITHFUL AND TRUE-AND IS 10 YEARS YOUNGER THAN ME.I BROUGHT HIM BACK ACROSS THE BORDER AND I WOULD DO IT AGAIN IF I HAVE TOO.WE HAVE BEEN THRU MUCH AND HAVE TRUSTED THE LORD IN ALL THINGS.I LIVE IN GEORGIA AND THE LAW HERE NOW IS HORRIBLE.THE ONLY LAW HE HAS BROKEN IS BEING HERE W/OUT PAPERS.AND MY EX-HE IS STILL OUT THERE CAPABLE OF HARMING OTHER WOMEN AND CHILDREN-BUT AT LEAST HE&#8217;S LEGAL.I KNOW  THIS CHURCH IS TRUE AND MY LIFE BELONGS TO OUR SAVIOR.THER ARE THREE THINGS IN THIS LIFE I WILL FIGHT AND DIE FOR-MY LORD,MY HUSBAND,AND MY FAMILY.WHAT ELSE DO WE HAVE,IF IT&#8217;S NOT ETERNAL,WHAT WORTH IS IT.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark B.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/illegal-brothers-and-sisters/#comment-127674</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Apr 2006 21:42:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2745#comment-127674</guid>
		<description>I was afraid that barret was serious, and then I saw the date on his post.

Happy April Fools&#039; Day!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was afraid that barret was serious, and then I saw the date on his post.</p>
<p>Happy April Fools&#8217; Day!</p>
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		<title>By: barret</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/illegal-brothers-and-sisters/#comment-126980</link>
		<dc:creator>barret</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Apr 2006 18:40:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2745#comment-126980</guid>
		<description>WHAT do you people not understand. ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL. I know it is difficult to come into the country. I know many come to help their family. SO do those who wait in line. There is a law. You break it you should pay. 
Not all come in with pure intentions. Many in prison are illegal immigrants. Our hospitals and schools are being over-run. The immigrants for the most part dont want citizenship. I proove this by the fact that they dont learn english and hold mexican flags all the time. They believe this is there land. (Atzlan) If you dont beleive me visit one of the rallies happening this week. I have. I was attacked while just inocently driving my wife to work. They beat on my car threw cups at me told me to leave their country. They even burnt our american flag. No they want free and better health care and education. they want to be paid more. Many say well they do jobs that we wont. Baloney. No one will work for 2 dollars an hour. This is slavery. If you support illegal workers you support slavery. Vicente fox wants us to take care of his poor. The church wants us to follow the commandments. LETS DO THAT!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WHAT do you people not understand. ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL. I know it is difficult to come into the country. I know many come to help their family. SO do those who wait in line. There is a law. You break it you should pay.<br />
Not all come in with pure intentions. Many in prison are illegal immigrants. Our hospitals and schools are being over-run. The immigrants for the most part dont want citizenship. I proove this by the fact that they dont learn english and hold mexican flags all the time. They believe this is there land. (Atzlan) If you dont beleive me visit one of the rallies happening this week. I have. I was attacked while just inocently driving my wife to work. They beat on my car threw cups at me told me to leave their country. They even burnt our american flag. No they want free and better health care and education. they want to be paid more. Many say well they do jobs that we wont. Baloney. No one will work for 2 dollars an hour. This is slavery. If you support illegal workers you support slavery. Vicente fox wants us to take care of his poor. The church wants us to follow the commandments. LETS DO THAT!</p>
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		<title>By: Mathew</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/illegal-brothers-and-sisters/#comment-118307</link>
		<dc:creator>Mathew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:44:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2745#comment-118307</guid>
		<description>Quote from a member this past Sunday giving her talk in Spanish and relating how she first met the missionaries: &quot;Two men in suits came to my door and rang the doorbell.  I was scared.  I didn&#039;t know what they wanted.  I thought they might be from immigration.&quot;  

Half the ward started laughing, followed by the other half when we got the translation.  What a great moment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quote from a member this past Sunday giving her talk in Spanish and relating how she first met the missionaries: &#8220;Two men in suits came to my door and rang the doorbell.  I was scared.  I didn&#8217;t know what they wanted.  I thought they might be from immigration.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Half the ward started laughing, followed by the other half when we got the translation.  What a great moment.</p>
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		<title>By: greenfrog</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/illegal-brothers-and-sisters/#comment-117367</link>
		<dc:creator>greenfrog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 18:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2745#comment-117367</guid>
		<description>Adam,

This post and discussion came to mind for me recently as I finished reading David Berreby&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Us and Them: Understanding Your Tribal Mind.&lt;/i&gt;

His thesis is that human brains are pre-designed to facilitate and fortify group identification -- both groups to which we perceive ourselves belonging as well as groups to which we perceive ourselves in opposition.  He reports information on a number of sociological studies in weaving his conclusions.  

You might find his work of interest.

gf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam,</p>
<p>This post and discussion came to mind for me recently as I finished reading David Berreby&#8217;s <i>Us and Them: Understanding Your Tribal Mind.</i></p>
<p>His thesis is that human brains are pre-designed to facilitate and fortify group identification &#8212; both groups to which we perceive ourselves belonging as well as groups to which we perceive ourselves in opposition.  He reports information on a number of sociological studies in weaving his conclusions.  </p>
<p>You might find his work of interest.</p>
<p>gf</p>
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		<title>By: Jettboy</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/illegal-brothers-and-sisters/#comment-114213</link>
		<dc:creator>Jettboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:17:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2745#comment-114213</guid>
		<description>&quot;Would you still be for it if you knew that such enforcement would increase the cost of a head of lettuce to $6.35 (as someone mentioned earlier)?&quot;

Yes, it is a small price to pay to protect the United States from the influx of murderers, rapists, and those who have no business getting here without going through proper channels. I would certainly not move to another country without doing whatever was needed legally to live in, say, Canada. It isn&#039;t about money. Its about national security and doing the right thing!

&quot;what about good Mormon employers (and I wouldnâ€™t be surprised if there are a few here in the Phoenix area that do this) who stop by the open air labor market and pick up a few guys without papers for some casual construction-type labor?&quot;

They are breaking the law and acting dishonest. This should cause them to rethink their worthiness to go to the Temple. This goes beyond the &quot;speeding&quot; argument as I have said above, because it is close to an invasion; usually considered an act of War.

 
&quot;Would you feel compelled to turn Bro. Employer in for labor law violations? Heâ€™s violating The Law as well!&quot;

Actually, I would follow the gospel ideal first. Go to that person and explain what you find seriously wrong with what they are doing. If they continue to support illegals I would think of raising my hands in objection to callings within the Church. Finally, after deliberation and objection, I would turn them in for violating the law.


I have no qualms about this one bit! Its time to &quot;lay down the law&quot; in order to protect the U.S. against foriegn invaders who can do harm and just slip away into the dark mists of Mexico. The other alternative is that if you are an illegal who breaks the law, then instant death penalty no matter how small the infraction. Extreme, but it might deter the more sinister elements from deciding its easier to do their damage over the boarder and on U.S. soil.


Like I said above, I am not against streamlining the imigration laws making it easier to get in. What I am against is making it so easy that any can get in, or not doing something about those who are currently getting in and getting away with it to the moral and physical safety of this nation. I know of no nation that is so open, against its own laws, to allowing people from other nations to willy nilly come right in. My guess is that even Canada isn&#039;t so open; or at least probably follows its own lenient laws about citizenship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Would you still be for it if you knew that such enforcement would increase the cost of a head of lettuce to $6.35 (as someone mentioned earlier)?&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, it is a small price to pay to protect the United States from the influx of murderers, rapists, and those who have no business getting here without going through proper channels. I would certainly not move to another country without doing whatever was needed legally to live in, say, Canada. It isn&#8217;t about money. Its about national security and doing the right thing!</p>
<p>&#8220;what about good Mormon employers (and I wouldnâ€™t be surprised if there are a few here in the Phoenix area that do this) who stop by the open air labor market and pick up a few guys without papers for some casual construction-type labor?&#8221;</p>
<p>They are breaking the law and acting dishonest. This should cause them to rethink their worthiness to go to the Temple. This goes beyond the &#8220;speeding&#8221; argument as I have said above, because it is close to an invasion; usually considered an act of War.</p>
<p>&#8220;Would you feel compelled to turn Bro. Employer in for labor law violations? Heâ€™s violating The Law as well!&#8221;</p>
<p>Actually, I would follow the gospel ideal first. Go to that person and explain what you find seriously wrong with what they are doing. If they continue to support illegals I would think of raising my hands in objection to callings within the Church. Finally, after deliberation and objection, I would turn them in for violating the law.</p>
<p>I have no qualms about this one bit! Its time to &#8220;lay down the law&#8221; in order to protect the U.S. against foriegn invaders who can do harm and just slip away into the dark mists of Mexico. The other alternative is that if you are an illegal who breaks the law, then instant death penalty no matter how small the infraction. Extreme, but it might deter the more sinister elements from deciding its easier to do their damage over the boarder and on U.S. soil.</p>
<p>Like I said above, I am not against streamlining the imigration laws making it easier to get in. What I am against is making it so easy that any can get in, or not doing something about those who are currently getting in and getting away with it to the moral and physical safety of this nation. I know of no nation that is so open, against its own laws, to allowing people from other nations to willy nilly come right in. My guess is that even Canada isn&#8217;t so open; or at least probably follows its own lenient laws about citizenship.</p>
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		<title>By: DavidH</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/illegal-brothers-and-sisters/#comment-111414</link>
		<dc:creator>DavidH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2005 16:24:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2745#comment-111414</guid>
		<description>Thanks Mark.  Amen and amen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Mark.  Amen and amen.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike W.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/illegal-brothers-and-sisters/#comment-111320</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2005 04:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2745#comment-111320</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s a link that discusses, superficially, all the current proposals being tossed about. 

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/13345384.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a link that discusses, superficially, all the current proposals being tossed about. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/13345384.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/13345384.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mark B.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/illegal-brothers-and-sisters/#comment-111312</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2005 01:22:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2745#comment-111312</guid>
		<description>One additional small (but not for those directly affected) point:  Rep. Sensenbrenner&#039;s bill would work substantial revisions to INA Sec. 274, making a quick end to Senator Bennett&#039;s amendment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One additional small (but not for those directly affected) point:  Rep. Sensenbrenner&#8217;s bill would work substantial revisions to INA Sec. 274, making a quick end to Senator Bennett&#8217;s amendment.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark B.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/illegal-brothers-and-sisters/#comment-111311</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2005 01:20:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2745#comment-111311</guid>
		<description>Thanks for posting that piece.  I have concerns about some of what Ms. Noonan says.

For example, she says:  

&quot;If you assume or come to believe that that nation will not enforce its own laws for reasons that are essentially cynical, that have to do with the needs of big business or the needs of politicians, will that assumption or belief make you more or less likely to be moved by that country, proud of that country, eager to ally yourself with it emotionally, psychologically and spiritually?&quot;

I frankly don&#039;t know whether the failure to enforce the immigration laws arises from cynicism, and I suspect that Ms. Noonan doesn&#039;t have any better data that I have.  

The cynicism behind the failure to enforce the laws, if there in fact is any, may be found as much in the hearts of those who call for strict enforcement but fail to raise the revenues necessary to that enforcement as in the hearts of the elite who grow up in suburbs, go to Yale and have an easy life (made easier by the low cost gardener, housekeeper, nanny, busboy and waiter and cook and etc. etc. who are all here in violation of the immigration laws).

&quot;When you don&#039;t earn something or suffer to get it, do you value it less highly?&quot;

I&#039;m not at all sure that the price paid for those who &quot;earned&quot; admission to the US in 1910, or 1853 for that matter, was higher than, or even as high as, the price paid by those who come to the US now--whether those who wait for immigrant visas or those who cross the border without inspection.

Surely Ms. Noonan&#039;s grandmother had to gather the funds to pay her passage, and had to leave her known world behind and travel 10 days to cross the Atlantic.  She had to pass the examiners at Ellis Island, showing herself free from disease.

Consider the poor Mexican from Puebla--there is no amount of money that would enable him to gain admission to the US, at least none that is within his grasp, worlds without end.  (There are visas available to investors who are prepared to invest $1,000,000 in a US business.  As I said, worlds without end.)  If he had an employer who was willing to sponsor him (how to find that employer while living in Puebla?), and the money, $6,000 to $10,000, to pay the costs of the process, then he might have a chance.  But it will take him six or seven years from the time that unlikely process begins until he can approach the embassy for his visa interview.

Perhaps he&#039;s lucky and has a brother that went ahead of him, fell in love with and married an American woman, got a green card and eventually became a citizen.  As a citizen, that brother is entitled to file a petition for his brother in Puebla.  And, if the US citizen brother had filed that petition before April 1, 1992, the man in Puebla could file his visa application this month, December 2005, and perhaps six months or a year from now he would receive his immigrant visa, assuming that he isn&#039;t found to be inadmissable for health or criminal or other reasons.  (One of those criminal reasons:  any conviction for an offense relating to a controlled substance--not trafficking, simple possession.  It could be an ounce of marijuana, 20 years ago while the man was a foolish teenager.)

On the bright side: the man in Puebla is better off than his Filipino brethren--if a US citizen files for his Filipino brother or sister, the waiting period is now 22 years.

And, for those who come without inspection, the costs are high, financial and otherwise.  There&#039;s the trip to the border, the payment to &lt;i&gt;los coyotes&lt;/i&gt;, the risky trip across the desert, the constant fear of being caught, the difficulty in getting work, the low wages, the high cost of housing, the need for money back home, and on and on.  I don&#039;t know that those people value their being here any less than those who came when the legal restrictions were lower.

Do those who come without inspection, or who overstay their visas, think that they&#039;re conning the US?  I don&#039;t know.  My guess is that most don&#039;t think in those terms.  They instead think of the difficulty of life here--the streets aren&#039;t actually paved with gold, and the folks back in Puebla don&#039;t realize how hard things are here.

Of course, since they are legally &quot;outlaws&quot; there&#039;s no integration into the US polity.  How could we expect them to learn and adopt the principles of our constitutional government if they&#039;re on the run from &quot;la Migracion.&quot;

I cannot speak for anyone on the pro-immigration side of the issue except myself, but I think that my concerns about this nation and the shared values that make us a nation run just as deep as Ms. Noonan&#039;s.  I too am concerned about the apparent anarchy at our southern border (although I do have to hold my nose if I hear about it from Lou Dobbs).

I&#039;m also concerned about the proposals to toughen enforcement at the border--see for example the bill just reported out of the House Judiciary Committee, HR 4437:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.4437:

Reading the provisions of that bill reminds me of other, ultimately unsuccesful, efforts to build barriers to keep people from seeking economic or political liberty.  I don&#039;t suggest that the sponsors&#039; motives are the same, but the effects of their proposals could end up looking sadly similar. It would be sad if the line from Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic (erased by the miracles of 15 years ago) were replaced in world consciousness by the line from Brownsville on the Gulf of Mexico to San Diego on the Pacific.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for posting that piece.  I have concerns about some of what Ms. Noonan says.</p>
<p>For example, she says:  </p>
<p>&#8220;If you assume or come to believe that that nation will not enforce its own laws for reasons that are essentially cynical, that have to do with the needs of big business or the needs of politicians, will that assumption or belief make you more or less likely to be moved by that country, proud of that country, eager to ally yourself with it emotionally, psychologically and spiritually?&#8221;</p>
<p>I frankly don&#8217;t know whether the failure to enforce the immigration laws arises from cynicism, and I suspect that Ms. Noonan doesn&#8217;t have any better data that I have.  </p>
<p>The cynicism behind the failure to enforce the laws, if there in fact is any, may be found as much in the hearts of those who call for strict enforcement but fail to raise the revenues necessary to that enforcement as in the hearts of the elite who grow up in suburbs, go to Yale and have an easy life (made easier by the low cost gardener, housekeeper, nanny, busboy and waiter and cook and etc. etc. who are all here in violation of the immigration laws).</p>
<p>&#8220;When you don&#8217;t earn something or suffer to get it, do you value it less highly?&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not at all sure that the price paid for those who &#8220;earned&#8221; admission to the US in 1910, or 1853 for that matter, was higher than, or even as high as, the price paid by those who come to the US now&#8211;whether those who wait for immigrant visas or those who cross the border without inspection.</p>
<p>Surely Ms. Noonan&#8217;s grandmother had to gather the funds to pay her passage, and had to leave her known world behind and travel 10 days to cross the Atlantic.  She had to pass the examiners at Ellis Island, showing herself free from disease.</p>
<p>Consider the poor Mexican from Puebla&#8211;there is no amount of money that would enable him to gain admission to the US, at least none that is within his grasp, worlds without end.  (There are visas available to investors who are prepared to invest $1,000,000 in a US business.  As I said, worlds without end.)  If he had an employer who was willing to sponsor him (how to find that employer while living in Puebla?), and the money, $6,000 to $10,000, to pay the costs of the process, then he might have a chance.  But it will take him six or seven years from the time that unlikely process begins until he can approach the embassy for his visa interview.</p>
<p>Perhaps he&#8217;s lucky and has a brother that went ahead of him, fell in love with and married an American woman, got a green card and eventually became a citizen.  As a citizen, that brother is entitled to file a petition for his brother in Puebla.  And, if the US citizen brother had filed that petition before April 1, 1992, the man in Puebla could file his visa application this month, December 2005, and perhaps six months or a year from now he would receive his immigrant visa, assuming that he isn&#8217;t found to be inadmissable for health or criminal or other reasons.  (One of those criminal reasons:  any conviction for an offense relating to a controlled substance&#8211;not trafficking, simple possession.  It could be an ounce of marijuana, 20 years ago while the man was a foolish teenager.)</p>
<p>On the bright side: the man in Puebla is better off than his Filipino brethren&#8211;if a US citizen files for his Filipino brother or sister, the waiting period is now 22 years.</p>
<p>And, for those who come without inspection, the costs are high, financial and otherwise.  There&#8217;s the trip to the border, the payment to <i>los coyotes</i>, the risky trip across the desert, the constant fear of being caught, the difficulty in getting work, the low wages, the high cost of housing, the need for money back home, and on and on.  I don&#8217;t know that those people value their being here any less than those who came when the legal restrictions were lower.</p>
<p>Do those who come without inspection, or who overstay their visas, think that they&#8217;re conning the US?  I don&#8217;t know.  My guess is that most don&#8217;t think in those terms.  They instead think of the difficulty of life here&#8211;the streets aren&#8217;t actually paved with gold, and the folks back in Puebla don&#8217;t realize how hard things are here.</p>
<p>Of course, since they are legally &#8220;outlaws&#8221; there&#8217;s no integration into the US polity.  How could we expect them to learn and adopt the principles of our constitutional government if they&#8217;re on the run from &#8220;la Migracion.&#8221;</p>
<p>I cannot speak for anyone on the pro-immigration side of the issue except myself, but I think that my concerns about this nation and the shared values that make us a nation run just as deep as Ms. Noonan&#8217;s.  I too am concerned about the apparent anarchy at our southern border (although I do have to hold my nose if I hear about it from Lou Dobbs).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m also concerned about the proposals to toughen enforcement at the border&#8211;see for example the bill just reported out of the House Judiciary Committee, HR 4437:<br />
<a href="http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.4437" rel="nofollow">http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.4437</a>:</p>
<p>Reading the provisions of that bill reminds me of other, ultimately unsuccesful, efforts to build barriers to keep people from seeking economic or political liberty.  I don&#8217;t suggest that the sponsors&#8217; motives are the same, but the effects of their proposals could end up looking sadly similar. It would be sad if the line from Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic (erased by the miracles of 15 years ago) were replaced in world consciousness by the line from Brownsville on the Gulf of Mexico to San Diego on the Pacific.</p>
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