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	<title>Comments on: Conversion, Culture, and Buying Members</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/conversion-culture-and-buying-members/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Kevin Graham</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/conversion-culture-and-buying-members/#comment-117230</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:57:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Islam is the most respected religion in America, as evidenced by their privileges no other faith could claim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Islam is the most respected religion in America, as evidenced by their privileges no other faith could claim.</p>
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		<title>By: Bookslinger</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/conversion-culture-and-buying-members/#comment-110161</link>
		<dc:creator>Bookslinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Dec 2005 17:55:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2742#comment-110161</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m led to believe that there is not an insignificant number of members in the States who show up on Sundays in order to qualify for church welfare.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m led to believe that there is not an insignificant number of members in the States who show up on Sundays in order to qualify for church welfare.</p>
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		<title>By: lyle</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/conversion-culture-and-buying-members/#comment-110151</link>
		<dc:creator>lyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Dec 2005 17:11:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2742#comment-110151</guid>
		<description>So much for Canada&#039;s vaunted open door policy &amp; acceptance.  What a joke.  Not accepting refugees based on their religion when it didn&#039;t match the religion of their &quot;ethnic/nationality&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So much for Canada&#8217;s vaunted open door policy &amp; acceptance.  What a joke.  Not accepting refugees based on their religion when it didn&#8217;t match the religion of their &#8220;ethnic/nationality&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Rogers</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/conversion-culture-and-buying-members/#comment-109893</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Rogers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:36:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2742#comment-109893</guid>
		<description>Money represents many things:
-Hard Work
-Dedication
-Priorities

It also represents some negative things.

But money is how so many things are expressed, it would be irresponsible for the Church not to spend in on taking care of its members and others. Dedication of funds is an essential communication from the Church that certain things matter.

Of course the Church is buying us off (at least a little bit). Money talks. It has immediate credibility with people, because of what it represents. People want assurance that our Church cares about them. Money is one very good way of demonstrating that compassion.

So yes, I think the Church is buying people off. And no, I don&#039;t have any problem with that whatsoever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Money represents many things:<br />
-Hard Work<br />
-Dedication<br />
-Priorities</p>
<p>It also represents some negative things.</p>
<p>But money is how so many things are expressed, it would be irresponsible for the Church not to spend in on taking care of its members and others. Dedication of funds is an essential communication from the Church that certain things matter.</p>
<p>Of course the Church is buying us off (at least a little bit). Money talks. It has immediate credibility with people, because of what it represents. People want assurance that our Church cares about them. Money is one very good way of demonstrating that compassion.</p>
<p>So yes, I think the Church is buying people off. And no, I don&#8217;t have any problem with that whatsoever.</p>
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		<title>By: Erica Merrell</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/conversion-culture-and-buying-members/#comment-109853</link>
		<dc:creator>Erica Merrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:49:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2742#comment-109853</guid>
		<description>Thanks for fixing the link, Wilfried.  Sometimes it&#039;s amusing to see what people can come up with about the Church in Russia and Central Asia, but the reason that the Church hasn&#039;t been recognized in Kyrgyzstan is because of conflicting reports about whether we are helpful or dangerous and it&#039;s not quite so amusing.  It does matter what people think about us.

I wish there were more that could be done for those that get left behind- or for those that never had anyone else there in the first place.  This lack of support happens to be another criticism leveled against new Christian churches in Central Asia and especially in Mongolia where there is significantly more Christian activity.  But if the missionaries leave or were never there, who else is there to support those members besides each other?  Sometimes thatâ€™s enough (like Iâ€™ve said before, Iâ€™ve been impressed with the members in Kyrgyzstan in this regard), but sometimes itâ€™s not.

I know it would only be a partial solution to a big problem, but I do wish more LDS families would live overseas and actually be involved with the local members.  Certainly not to run things or to be in any kind of leadership position, but simply to give some much-needed support.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for fixing the link, Wilfried.  Sometimes it&#8217;s amusing to see what people can come up with about the Church in Russia and Central Asia, but the reason that the Church hasn&#8217;t been recognized in Kyrgyzstan is because of conflicting reports about whether we are helpful or dangerous and it&#8217;s not quite so amusing.  It does matter what people think about us.</p>
<p>I wish there were more that could be done for those that get left behind- or for those that never had anyone else there in the first place.  This lack of support happens to be another criticism leveled against new Christian churches in Central Asia and especially in Mongolia where there is significantly more Christian activity.  But if the missionaries leave or were never there, who else is there to support those members besides each other?  Sometimes thatâ€™s enough (like Iâ€™ve said before, Iâ€™ve been impressed with the members in Kyrgyzstan in this regard), but sometimes itâ€™s not.</p>
<p>I know it would only be a partial solution to a big problem, but I do wish more LDS families would live overseas and actually be involved with the local members.  Certainly not to run things or to be in any kind of leadership position, but simply to give some much-needed support.</p>
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		<title>By: Wilfried</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/conversion-culture-and-buying-members/#comment-109822</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilfried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov 2005 04:37:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2742#comment-109822</guid>
		<description>Erica, I fixed the link in your comment 5. I hope that was the article you meant. The topic is fascinating, and I guess many Mormons would be surprised to hear that we are not being waited for with open arms. In &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.hri.org/news/balkans/rferl/2004/04-08-10.rferl.html#14&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this news item&lt;/a&gt;, I think from Central Russia in Muslim territory, we are &quot;a devilish, dangerous sect of CIA spies&quot;. 

The focus in this thread has been on members being &quot;bought&quot;. But there are of course also many genuine converts. I would like to draw the attention on the immense responsibility we have, as Church leaders, members, missionaries, when we bring people into the Church in such areas. Religiously we do our duty in trying to convert people. But if we break up families, if we cannot provide these converts enough protection, if we cannot guarantee, at least minimally, their happiness,  are our efforts ethical? It&#039;s something I have been struggling with. Of course, our Church history shows those problems and tensions have always existed in missionary work, but in times past we encouraged and effectively helped all our converts emigrate to the U.S. This is not the case any more. Moreover, the missionaries have an efficient exit-plan if things go sour, but what about those we leave behind?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erica, I fixed the link in your comment 5. I hope that was the article you meant. The topic is fascinating, and I guess many Mormons would be surprised to hear that we are not being waited for with open arms. In <a href="http://www.hri.org/news/balkans/rferl/2004/04-08-10.rferl.html#14" rel="nofollow">this news item</a>, I think from Central Russia in Muslim territory, we are &#8220;a devilish, dangerous sect of CIA spies&#8221;. </p>
<p>The focus in this thread has been on members being &#8220;bought&#8221;. But there are of course also many genuine converts. I would like to draw the attention on the immense responsibility we have, as Church leaders, members, missionaries, when we bring people into the Church in such areas. Religiously we do our duty in trying to convert people. But if we break up families, if we cannot provide these converts enough protection, if we cannot guarantee, at least minimally, their happiness,  are our efforts ethical? It&#8217;s something I have been struggling with. Of course, our Church history shows those problems and tensions have always existed in missionary work, but in times past we encouraged and effectively helped all our converts emigrate to the U.S. This is not the case any more. Moreover, the missionaries have an efficient exit-plan if things go sour, but what about those we leave behind?</p>
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		<title>By: Erica Merrell</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/conversion-culture-and-buying-members/#comment-109810</link>
		<dc:creator>Erica Merrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov 2005 03:20:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2742#comment-109810</guid>
		<description>According to every news story I&#039;ve read (obviously taken with a grain of salt) about new Christian churches, most members join for financial reasons.  And after talking to various Christians here, I have no doubt that there are churches who are happy to have people join for any reason- the faith might come later if they can just keep them coming to church.  Whether many people do change religions for financial reasons might not matter because news reports contribute a great deal to the problem.  For example, &lt;a href=&quot;http://iwpr.gn.apc.org/?s=f&amp;o=174903&amp;apc_state=henirca2003&quot;&gt;this article&lt;/a&gt;  ran shortly after Elder Nelson visited Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan in 2003.

So, yes, the question is whether the negatives outweigh the positives.  The trouble is that all Christians get lumped together and the negative effects from one church get applied to all churches.  The positives don&#039;t seem to get so nicely distributed.

Christian, if that were the standard, then there would certainly be fewer world religions.  But the cultural connection to a religion is important in identifying what a person is.  Even if there is little belief, much less practice, Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, etc. have all played a major role in the world.  I&#039;m more inclined to say a religion&#039;s worldwide effect is more important than the number of adherents or their personal level of commitment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to every news story I&#8217;ve read (obviously taken with a grain of salt) about new Christian churches, most members join for financial reasons.  And after talking to various Christians here, I have no doubt that there are churches who are happy to have people join for any reason- the faith might come later if they can just keep them coming to church.  Whether many people do change religions for financial reasons might not matter because news reports contribute a great deal to the problem.  For example, <a href="http://iwpr.gn.apc.org/?s=f&#038;o=174903&#038;apc_state=henirca2003">this article</a>  ran shortly after Elder Nelson visited Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan in 2003.</p>
<p>So, yes, the question is whether the negatives outweigh the positives.  The trouble is that all Christians get lumped together and the negative effects from one church get applied to all churches.  The positives don&#8217;t seem to get so nicely distributed.</p>
<p>Christian, if that were the standard, then there would certainly be fewer world religions.  But the cultural connection to a religion is important in identifying what a person is.  Even if there is little belief, much less practice, Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, etc. have all played a major role in the world.  I&#8217;m more inclined to say a religion&#8217;s worldwide effect is more important than the number of adherents or their personal level of commitment.</p>
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		<title>By: Christian Y. Cardall</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/conversion-culture-and-buying-members/#comment-109806</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian Y. Cardall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov 2005 02:14:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2742#comment-109806</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Central Asians are culturally Muslims in much the same way that most Jews are culturally Jewish instead of religiously Jewish.&lt;/i&gt;

For some weird reason I cannot justify or rationalize---perhaps I&#039;m simply parroting it from somewhere---the time when a majority of adherents of (insert religion here) are culturally (insert religion here) without being religiously (insert religion here) strikes me as a sign that (insert religion here) has reached &quot;world religion&quot; status.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Central Asians are culturally Muslims in much the same way that most Jews are culturally Jewish instead of religiously Jewish.</i></p>
<p>For some weird reason I cannot justify or rationalize&#8212;perhaps I&#8217;m simply parroting it from somewhere&#8212;the time when a majority of adherents of (insert religion here) are culturally (insert religion here) without being religiously (insert religion here) strikes me as a sign that (insert religion here) has reached &#8220;world religion&#8221; status.</p>
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		<title>By: manaen</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/conversion-culture-and-buying-members/#comment-109794</link>
		<dc:creator>manaen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov 2005 00:46:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2742#comment-109794</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve wondered for a while how non- and anti-LDS view and discuss the PEF, with its concentration on RMs in less-developed countries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve wondered for a while how non- and anti-LDS view and discuss the PEF, with its concentration on RMs in less-developed countries.</p>
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		<title>By: slam smith</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/conversion-culture-and-buying-members/#comment-109789</link>
		<dc:creator>slam smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:04:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2742#comment-109789</guid>
		<description>After the war in Germany a lot of the new members were called &quot;Dosen Mormonen&quot; literally can mormons.  They had joined the church to get the aid sent by American saints.  As soon as the aid stopped or wasn&#039;t needed, these &quot;members&quot; fell away.  I not sure I can really condemn them.  Desperate times call for desperate measures, and joining a religion you don&#039;t believe in, doesn&#039;t really seem all that desperate.  I heard this story from a member who joined the church shortly after the war.  He refused to take aid for a while because he didn&#039;t want anyone to think that he had joined the church in order to get handouts.  I wouldn&#039;t be surprised if similar situations have occured in Central Asia as well to various Christian groups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After the war in Germany a lot of the new members were called &#8220;Dosen Mormonen&#8221; literally can mormons.  They had joined the church to get the aid sent by American saints.  As soon as the aid stopped or wasn&#8217;t needed, these &#8220;members&#8221; fell away.  I not sure I can really condemn them.  Desperate times call for desperate measures, and joining a religion you don&#8217;t believe in, doesn&#8217;t really seem all that desperate.  I heard this story from a member who joined the church shortly after the war.  He refused to take aid for a while because he didn&#8217;t want anyone to think that he had joined the church in order to get handouts.  I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised if similar situations have occured in Central Asia as well to various Christian groups.</p>
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