<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: After the Fall</title>
	<atom:link href="http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/after-the-fall/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/after-the-fall/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 01:03:33 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: annegb</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/after-the-fall/#comment-106171</link>
		<dc:creator>annegb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 15:56:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2678#comment-106171</guid>
		<description>You know, it&#039;s easy to forgive when people are sorry, are nice to you.  If those guys had thumbed their noses or been very rude, I&#039;d&#039;ve been ready to make voodoo dolls and stick pins in all parts of their bodies.

I have learned a little about acceptance and forgiveness from my difficult neighbor.  I don&#039;t necessarily change how I feel, but I change how I act, which is very nice, then I feel nicer.  If that makes sense.

She&#039;s been here for three years, I think, and she&#039;s growing on me.  I get mad, then I act nice, then I feel nicer.  Who would know I had that much patience?  I think we were friends in heaven or something.

Really, if Septimus had written me a &quot;grow up, act your age, get a life&quot; letter instead of a nice apology, I would not have been so forgiving.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, it&#8217;s easy to forgive when people are sorry, are nice to you.  If those guys had thumbed their noses or been very rude, I&#8217;d've been ready to make voodoo dolls and stick pins in all parts of their bodies.</p>
<p>I have learned a little about acceptance and forgiveness from my difficult neighbor.  I don&#8217;t necessarily change how I feel, but I change how I act, which is very nice, then I feel nicer.  If that makes sense.</p>
<p>She&#8217;s been here for three years, I think, and she&#8217;s growing on me.  I get mad, then I act nice, then I feel nicer.  Who would know I had that much patience?  I think we were friends in heaven or something.</p>
<p>Really, if Septimus had written me a &#8220;grow up, act your age, get a life&#8221; letter instead of a nice apology, I would not have been so forgiving.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Julie M. Smith</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/after-the-fall/#comment-106067</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie M. Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 03:35:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2678#comment-106067</guid>
		<description>Re #190--
Adam has said what I would have.  

 And I think the Julie M. Smith is the fallout of the change to the newer wordpress.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re #190&#8211;<br />
Adam has said what I would have.  </p>
<p> And I think the Julie M. Smith is the fallout of the change to the newer wordpress.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: manaen</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/after-the-fall/#comment-106024</link>
		<dc:creator>manaen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 20:33:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2678#comment-106024</guid>
		<description>197. Guy, I hope you enjoy it.  I came upon the &quot;Embracing Hope&quot; conference a couple years ago on KBYU.  It was a series of presentations about abuse -- remarkably good stuff about healing and repentance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>197. Guy, I hope you enjoy it.  I came upon the &#8220;Embracing Hope&#8221; conference a couple years ago on KBYU.  It was a series of presentations about abuse &#8212; remarkably good stuff about healing and repentance.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Guy Murray</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/after-the-fall/#comment-106005</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy Murray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 19:30:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2678#comment-106005</guid>
		<description>manaen . . .thanks for your thoughts and your reference to the BYU conference article.  It looks very good, and I will certainly make some time to read it over the weekend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>manaen . . .thanks for your thoughts and your reference to the BYU conference article.  It looks very good, and I will certainly make some time to read it over the weekend.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: manaen</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/after-the-fall/#comment-105992</link>
		<dc:creator>manaen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 18:50:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2678#comment-105992</guid>
		<description>Adam, Guy, Julie,

Here&#039;s what I&#039;ve learned from help I received from others.  It generally agrees with your comments.

We are called to love friends and enemies -- everyone. Forgiving those that despitefully use us and other enemies cleanses *our* hearts
   &quot;Myth #6.  â€œI canâ€™t forgive until I know the other person is really sorry and wonâ€™t do it again.â€?  Although it may seem unfair that the victim should forgive an unrepentant offender, it is even more unfair that the victim should remain in a state of hurt and anger waiting for the offender to repent.  Forgiveness should not be confused with excusing the offense.  Rather, it is the way in which the victim is released from the power of the offender. 
   &quot;So, what is forgiveness?  Forgiveness implies a change of heart.  When we say, â€œI forgive you,â€? we are saying â€œI have stopped being angry with you.â€?  Forgiveness also conveys a change in the victimâ€™s expectations.  For example, he or she no longer seeks recriminations or tries to get even.  Genuine forgiveness is a process, not a product.  It takes time and is hard work.  It is a voluntary act which gives meaning to the wound, disengages the offended from the offender, and frees the injured person from the ills of bitterness and resentment.  [...]
   &quot;Forgiveness is the process through which the injured person gains peace, freedom, self-acceptance, and release from self-pity; through forgiveness wounds are healed.  It is a privilege to forgive, because forgiveness really is for the benefit of the victim!  It may be easier to forgive if the offender repents, but victims should not be dependent on the repentance of the offender in order to experience the freedom that comes with forgiveness.  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.byubroadcasting.org/embracinghope/transcripts/elaine_walton.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Dr. Elaine Walton, &quot;Embracing Hope&quot;, BYU, 23 Oct. 2002&lt;/a&gt;) 

and keeps us ready to love and to keep the Holy Ghost&#039;s companionship
   &quot;We cannot have the companionship of the Holy Ghost â€“ the medium of individual revelation â€“ if we are in transgression or if we are angry.&quot;  â€“ Dallin Oaks

Loving someone is a call to help them (e.g. good Samaritan).  Marvin J. Ashton explained two key steps in love/friendship in his first GenCon talk as an apostle (Fri, 6 Oct, 1972) , &quot;A friend is someone who is willing to take me the way I am but who is willing and able to leave me better than he found me.&quot;  Both of these components require not forgetting but clear recognition a person&#039;s faults: 
1) for them to feel they *are* loved as they are. This from my SP was key in breaking my heart, opening the door to its change &lt;a href=&quot;http://scriptures.lds.org/ezek/36/26#26&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;from stony to fleshy&lt;/a&gt; and 
2) using that awareness to focus our help on the specific ways they need to grow.
Somewhere in all this would be normal precautions against possible harm to ourselves until their repentance is complete.  Of course, after a person has repented of a particular offense, we then would forget it.

I believe this follows God&#039;s plan.  He forgives, and I want him to forgive, immediately.  However, I do *not* want him to forget my sins while I&#039;m asking for his help to overcome them!  But, yes, please do forget them once they&#039;re behind me and he promised that he then will &lt;a href=&quot;http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/58/42#42&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;remember them no more&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam, Guy, Julie,</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s what I&#8217;ve learned from help I received from others.  It generally agrees with your comments.</p>
<p>We are called to love friends and enemies &#8212; everyone. Forgiving those that despitefully use us and other enemies cleanses *our* hearts<br />
   &#8220;Myth #6.  â€œI canâ€™t forgive until I know the other person is really sorry and wonâ€™t do it again.â€?  Although it may seem unfair that the victim should forgive an unrepentant offender, it is even more unfair that the victim should remain in a state of hurt and anger waiting for the offender to repent.  Forgiveness should not be confused with excusing the offense.  Rather, it is the way in which the victim is released from the power of the offender.<br />
   &#8220;So, what is forgiveness?  Forgiveness implies a change of heart.  When we say, â€œI forgive you,â€? we are saying â€œI have stopped being angry with you.â€?  Forgiveness also conveys a change in the victimâ€™s expectations.  For example, he or she no longer seeks recriminations or tries to get even.  Genuine forgiveness is a process, not a product.  It takes time and is hard work.  It is a voluntary act which gives meaning to the wound, disengages the offended from the offender, and frees the injured person from the ills of bitterness and resentment.  [...]<br />
   &#8220;Forgiveness is the process through which the injured person gains peace, freedom, self-acceptance, and release from self-pity; through forgiveness wounds are healed.  It is a privilege to forgive, because forgiveness really is for the benefit of the victim!  It may be easier to forgive if the offender repents, but victims should not be dependent on the repentance of the offender in order to experience the freedom that comes with forgiveness.  (<a href="http://www.byubroadcasting.org/embracinghope/transcripts/elaine_walton.htm" rel="nofollow">Dr. Elaine Walton, &#8220;Embracing Hope&#8221;, BYU, 23 Oct. 2002</a>) </p>
<p>and keeps us ready to love and to keep the Holy Ghost&#8217;s companionship<br />
   &#8220;We cannot have the companionship of the Holy Ghost â€“ the medium of individual revelation â€“ if we are in transgression or if we are angry.&#8221;  â€“ Dallin Oaks</p>
<p>Loving someone is a call to help them (e.g. good Samaritan).  Marvin J. Ashton explained two key steps in love/friendship in his first GenCon talk as an apostle (Fri, 6 Oct, 1972) , &#8220;A friend is someone who is willing to take me the way I am but who is willing and able to leave me better than he found me.&#8221;  Both of these components require not forgetting but clear recognition a person&#8217;s faults:<br />
1) for them to feel they *are* loved as they are. This from my SP was key in breaking my heart, opening the door to its change <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/ezek/36/26#26" rel="nofollow">from stony to fleshy</a> and<br />
2) using that awareness to focus our help on the specific ways they need to grow.<br />
Somewhere in all this would be normal precautions against possible harm to ourselves until their repentance is complete.  Of course, after a person has repented of a particular offense, we then would forget it.</p>
<p>I believe this follows God&#8217;s plan.  He forgives, and I want him to forgive, immediately.  However, I do *not* want him to forget my sins while I&#8217;m asking for his help to overcome them!  But, yes, please do forget them once they&#8217;re behind me and he promised that he then will <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/58/42#42" rel="nofollow">remember them no more</a>.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/after-the-fall/#comment-105964</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 16:58:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2678#comment-105964</guid>
		<description>Fair enough, Guy Murray.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair enough, Guy Murray.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Guy Murray</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/after-the-fall/#comment-105962</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy Murray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 16:50:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2678#comment-105962</guid>
		<description>Adam Greenwood . . .I agree with your #`193 analysis.  I would only point out I&#039;m not nor have I suggested anyone is not &quot;loving sufficiently&quot; here.  And, perhpas I&#039;m reading too much into Julie&#039;s comment # 188.  If so, I apologize; however, her comments seem to imply the idea for forgiveness but not forgetting---again, I could be wrong (it wouldn&#039;t be the first time).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam Greenwood . . .I agree with your #`193 analysis.  I would only point out I&#8217;m not nor have I suggested anyone is not &#8220;loving sufficiently&#8221; here.  And, perhpas I&#8217;m reading too much into Julie&#8217;s comment # 188.  If so, I apologize; however, her comments seem to imply the idea for forgiveness but not forgetting&#8212;again, I could be wrong (it wouldn&#8217;t be the first time).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/after-the-fall/#comment-105958</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 16:22:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2678#comment-105958</guid>
		<description>Forgiveness isn&#039;t primarily a matter of action or of &#039;talk.&#039;  Its putting aside hatred for someone.  In its highest form, it could even be gaining or regaining love for someone who has hurt you.  That love will in turn lead to actions of various kinds, but its a fallacy to think that we aren&#039;t loving sufficiently if are judgment remains unclouded.  At least that&#039;s my opinion.  How far we are willing to trust our judgment also plays into this also.

I think the wisest thing said about the whole issue was Christ&#039;s &#039;love your enemies.&#039;  On the one hand we see it as a hard saying and try to put qualifications on when we have to do it.  But on the other hand, we sometimes forget that he referred to &#039;enemies.&#039;  We think that he meant something like &#039;cease to have enemies, cease to think of people as enemies,&#039; but that&#039;s not so.  Same with &#039;do good to those who hate us.&#039;  We don&#039;t like that much, but when we do, we often misinterpret it as saying something like &#039;acquiesce in the wishes of those who hate you.&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Forgiveness isn&#8217;t primarily a matter of action or of &#8216;talk.&#8217;  Its putting aside hatred for someone.  In its highest form, it could even be gaining or regaining love for someone who has hurt you.  That love will in turn lead to actions of various kinds, but its a fallacy to think that we aren&#8217;t loving sufficiently if are judgment remains unclouded.  At least that&#8217;s my opinion.  How far we are willing to trust our judgment also plays into this also.</p>
<p>I think the wisest thing said about the whole issue was Christ&#8217;s &#8216;love your enemies.&#8217;  On the one hand we see it as a hard saying and try to put qualifications on when we have to do it.  But on the other hand, we sometimes forget that he referred to &#8216;enemies.&#8217;  We think that he meant something like &#8216;cease to have enemies, cease to think of people as enemies,&#8217; but that&#8217;s not so.  Same with &#8216;do good to those who hate us.&#8217;  We don&#8217;t like that much, but when we do, we often misinterpret it as saying something like &#8216;acquiesce in the wishes of those who hate you.&#8217;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Guy Murray</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/after-the-fall/#comment-105951</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy Murray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 16:03:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2678#comment-105951</guid>
		<description>Adam Greenwood . . . how right you are; however, part of that action, as I view it, requires us to do more than just &quot;talk&quot; about forgiveness.  In terms of weaknesses, I find it a pretty full time job admiting, and dealing with my own.  If we are to &quot;do good to those who hate us&quot; perhaps that might fit in with the knowing the weaknesses and acting on that knowledge.  I&#039;m still working on this one:

http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/5/48#48</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam Greenwood . . . how right you are; however, part of that action, as I view it, requires us to do more than just &#8220;talk&#8221; about forgiveness.  In terms of weaknesses, I find it a pretty full time job admiting, and dealing with my own.  If we are to &#8220;do good to those who hate us&#8221; perhaps that might fit in with the knowing the weaknesses and acting on that knowledge.  I&#8217;m still working on this one:</p>
<p><a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/5/48#48" rel="nofollow">http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/5/48#48</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/11/after-the-fall/#comment-105942</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 15:34:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2678#comment-105942</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t see, Guy Murray, that loving someone means not knowing their weaknesses and failings and sometimes acting on that knowledge.  Quite the contrary--see, e.g., God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see, Guy Murray, that loving someone means not knowing their weaknesses and failings and sometimes acting on that knowledge.  Quite the contrary&#8211;see, e.g., God.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
<!-- WP Super Cache is installed but broken. The path to wp-cache-phase1.php in wp-content/advanced-cache.php must be fixed! -->
