Comments on: On the Blowing of Noses and the Bearing of Testimonies http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/on-the-blowing-of-noses-and-the-bearing-of-testimonies/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 12 Feb 2012 07:57:21 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Naomi Frandsen http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/on-the-blowing-of-noses-and-the-bearing-of-testimonies/#comment-103902 Naomi Frandsen Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:15:17 +0000 /?p=2636#comment-103902 Rosalynde, what I would like to know is at what point you began connecting nose-blowing and testimony-bearing as arising from the same basic sociological phenomenon :). I am slowly reading David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism right now, and serendipitously enough, I just finished the chapter on his ecumenical relations this morning on the metro. One thing that struck me was his rather vituperative defensiveness toward perceived aggression from the Catholic Church in Utah. Prince describes the Catholic Church's actions as wholly innocent (particularly on the part of Bishop Hunt) and our leaders' reactions as wrong-headed (sometimes intentionally). Skirmishes of interpretation and misinterpretation continued until the publication of Mormon Doctrine, in which the Roman Catholic Church was singled out as the great and abominable church. This breach in polite relations was so distressing and shocking to President McKay that, Prince claims, he gave up his animosity toward the Catholic Church for the rest of his life (which lasted another 10 years). I think politeness and a more mature understanding of the rules of fair play can account for President McKay's actions there. I was also struck by how different the public voice of Mormonism is today than it was just 50 years ago. Even though President Hinckley was an apostle under President McKay, he speaks much, much more circumspectly. Or at least, that's the way it seems to me. That's the part I don't fully understand--our current leadership (including President Hinckley, President Monson, etc.) were members of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles and other leading bodies throughout this change in ecumenical and public relations. Are they the ones bringing it about? If so, why didn't they happen sooner, since they were leaders back then, too? I am always somewhat amazed to see how much of past generations is still present in the church right now. Rosalynde, what I would like to know is at what point you began connecting nose-blowing and testimony-bearing as arising from the same basic sociological phenomenon :). I am slowly reading David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism right now, and serendipitously enough, I just finished the chapter on his ecumenical relations this morning on the metro. One thing that struck me was his rather vituperative defensiveness toward perceived aggression from the Catholic Church in Utah. Prince describes the Catholic Church’s actions as wholly innocent (particularly on the part of Bishop Hunt) and our leaders’ reactions as wrong-headed (sometimes intentionally). Skirmishes of interpretation and misinterpretation continued until the publication of Mormon Doctrine, in which the Roman Catholic Church was singled out as the great and abominable church. This breach in polite relations was so distressing and shocking to President McKay that, Prince claims, he gave up his animosity toward the Catholic Church for the rest of his life (which lasted another 10 years). I think politeness and a more mature understanding of the rules of fair play can account for President McKay’s actions there. I was also struck by how different the public voice of Mormonism is today than it was just 50 years ago. Even though President Hinckley was an apostle under President McKay, he speaks much, much more circumspectly. Or at least, that’s the way it seems to me. That’s the part I don’t fully understand–our current leadership (including President Hinckley, President Monson, etc.) were members of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles and other leading bodies throughout this change in ecumenical and public relations. Are they the ones bringing it about? If so, why didn’t they happen sooner, since they were leaders back then, too? I am always somewhat amazed to see how much of past generations is still present in the church right now.

]]> By: Bradley Ross http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/on-the-blowing-of-noses-and-the-bearing-of-testimonies/#comment-103873 Bradley Ross Fri, 21 Oct 2005 06:08:25 +0000 /?p=2636#comment-103873 The library.lds.org links don't show up in your browser's address bar. The page uses frames which means it is composed of several seperate pages. I use the little "bookmark" link at the top of an article to find the complete URL that will work for others to get to the page. As for why I like Elder Hafen's article, perhaps one reason is that I like Elder Hafen. He reminds me of Elder Holland--another of my favorite speakers. Bruce Hafen used to be the provost at BYU. I heard him comment that if only BYU had been built in Burly, Idaho, he could have been the burliest. Hafen addresses the common feeling that God isn't speaking to us as we'd hoped. <blockquote>After leaving our Kirtland, some may feel the waning of their sense of spiritual wonder, as the accumulating pressures and pollutions of life seem to cast doubt on the reality of inspiration or the worth of the institutional Church or the value of giving ourselves unselfishly to others. Especially in that kind of Nauvoo, some of us may turn away bitterly and say that the stories of Kirtland were not really true. “How could they be true?” some will ask. “We see no angels here, not now, when we need them most. What happened at Kirtland must have been the foolish imagination of our youth.” We will feel pressure to see things this way, for we may be surrounded by unbelievers who whisper tauntingly in our ears as did the enemy in Nauvoo: “Your Prophet is dead. Wake up—it was all a childhood dream.”</blockquote> Our testimony should address this concern. Elder Hafen does do beautifully. Clinging to our previous revelations was also a theme of a <a href="http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=795&tid=2">talk by Elder Holland</a>. The library.lds.org links don’t show up in your browser’s address bar. The page uses frames which means it is composed of several seperate pages. I use the little “bookmark” link at the top of an article to find the complete URL that will work for others to get to the page.

As for why I like Elder Hafen’s article, perhaps one reason is that I like Elder Hafen. He reminds me of Elder Holland–another of my favorite speakers. Bruce Hafen used to be the provost at BYU. I heard him comment that if only BYU had been built in Burly, Idaho, he could have been the burliest.

Hafen addresses the common feeling that God isn’t speaking to us as we’d hoped.

After leaving our Kirtland, some may feel the waning of their sense of spiritual wonder, as the accumulating pressures and pollutions of life seem to cast doubt on the reality of inspiration or the worth of the institutional Church or the value of giving ourselves unselfishly to others. Especially in that kind of Nauvoo, some of us may turn away bitterly and say that the stories of Kirtland were not really true.

“How could they be true?” some will ask. “We see no angels here, not now, when we need them most. What happened at Kirtland must have been the foolish imagination of our youth.” We will feel pressure to see things this way, for we may be surrounded by unbelievers who whisper tauntingly in our ears as did the enemy in Nauvoo: “Your Prophet is dead. Wake up—it was all a childhood dream.”

Our testimony should address this concern. Elder Hafen does do beautifully. Clinging to our previous revelations was also a theme of a talk by Elder Holland.

]]> By: Rosalynde http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/on-the-blowing-of-noses-and-the-bearing-of-testimonies/#comment-103866 Rosalynde Fri, 21 Oct 2005 04:26:31 +0000 /?p=2636#comment-103866 Thank you, Bradley Ross. That's happened to me before when I've tried to link to something from lds.org---what amd I doing wrong? In any case, thanks for reading, noticing the error and correcting it. So why do you love the talk so much? Thank you, Bradley Ross. That’s happened to me before when I’ve tried to link to something from lds.org—what amd I doing wrong?

In any case, thanks for reading, noticing the error and correcting it.

So why do you love the talk so much?

]]> By: Bradley Ross http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/on-the-blowing-of-noses-and-the-bearing-of-testimonies/#comment-103863 Bradley Ross Fri, 21 Oct 2005 04:00:39 +0000 /?p=2636#comment-103863 I <a href="http://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php?p=2171#comment-62417">love</a> the Bruce Hafen article cited in the post. Here is a <a href="http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1992.htm/ensign%20april%201992%20.htm/when%20do%20the%20angels%20come.htm?f=templates$fn=default.htm$3.0">working link</a> to it. I love the Bruce Hafen article cited in the post. Here is a working link to it.

]]> By: Rosalynde http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/on-the-blowing-of-noses-and-the-bearing-of-testimonies/#comment-103738 Rosalynde Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:50:52 +0000 /?p=2636#comment-103738 Julie, wise advice from an experienced mother! I basically said what you suggested, and she didn't press further. I haven't introduced the idea of priesthood authority to her yet---that seems a little abstract for a four-year-old mind, but she's surprised me before. From my own observations, it seems to me that the combination of absolute claims with an ethic of tolerance is difficult for pre-8 year olds to hold together in their minds, which are constantly searching for consistence and significance. I've decided to wait a little longer before introducing the moral imperatives behind certain of our behavioral choices---modesty, church-going, word of wisdom (on things like tea and coffee), etc---but I'm not at all sure that I'm doing things the right way. Plus she's getting a lot of it at Primary, anyway---I was a little chagrined when she came home telling me that her preschool teacher, a beloved authority figure in her life, shouldn't drink the cup of coffee she has every morning. Julie, wise advice from an experienced mother! I basically said what you suggested, and she didn’t press further. I haven’t introduced the idea of priesthood authority to her yet—that seems a little abstract for a four-year-old mind, but she’s surprised me before. From my own observations, it seems to me that the combination of absolute claims with an ethic of tolerance is difficult for pre-8 year olds to hold together in their minds, which are constantly searching for consistence and significance. I’ve decided to wait a little longer before introducing the moral imperatives behind certain of our behavioral choices—modesty, church-going, word of wisdom (on things like tea and coffee), etc—but I’m not at all sure that I’m doing things the right way. Plus she’s getting a lot of it at Primary, anyway—I was a little chagrined when she came home telling me that her preschool teacher, a beloved authority figure in her life, shouldn’t drink the cup of coffee she has every morning.

]]> By: Rosalynde http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/on-the-blowing-of-noses-and-the-bearing-of-testimonies/#comment-103734 Rosalynde Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:44:03 +0000 /?p=2636#comment-103734 Hi Randolph: Our own Frank McIntyre put together a nice graph comparing numbers of misionaries and convert baptisms over the past few decades here: http://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php?p=2203 It looks from the graph that, if current trends continue in the coming years, we have indeed seen a clear slowing of our growth rate----though this is not to suggest what may happen in future decades, of course. Hi Randolph: Our own Frank McIntyre put together a nice graph comparing numbers of misionaries and convert baptisms over the past few decades here: http://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php?p=2203 It looks from the graph that, if current trends continue in the coming years, we have indeed seen a clear slowing of our growth rate—-though this is not to suggest what may happen in future decades, of course.

]]> By: Randolph Finder http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/on-the-blowing-of-noses-and-the-bearing-of-testimonies/#comment-103701 Randolph Finder Thu, 20 Oct 2005 04:48:59 +0000 /?p=2636#comment-103701 Rosalynde: Top of the growth curve? Does anyone have any compiled information on the percentage rate of growth per year of the church? I think we could get it from enough May Ensigns (reading the reports on church membership), but I'd like to see if anyone else has done this already. Rosalynde:
Top of the growth curve? Does anyone have any compiled information on the percentage rate of growth per year of the church? I think we could get it from enough May Ensigns (reading the reports on church membership), but I’d like to see if anyone else has done this already.

]]> By: Julie in Austin http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/on-the-blowing-of-noses-and-the-bearing-of-testimonies/#comment-103194 Julie in Austin Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:33:38 +0000 /?p=2636#comment-103194 I think the problem (and I'm working on the 4 year old level here) is that the opposite of "real" is "fake." This is what I might have said: "Honey, that's a real church, too. They believe in Jesus and try to follow him just like we do." Of course, if pressed on the difference, I would talk about priesthood authority, realizing that an announcement in playgroup that 'Catholic priests are fake' won't go over well. But at a certain point, you either have to give up truth claims or embrace them, even at the cause of social embarrassment. And if you solve the nose issue, let me know. That's a constant struggle here . . . I think the problem (and I’m working on the 4 year old level here) is that the opposite of “real” is “fake.”

This is what I might have said: “Honey, that’s a real church, too. They believe in Jesus and try to follow him just like we do.”

Of course, if pressed on the difference, I would talk about priesthood authority, realizing that an announcement in playgroup that ‘Catholic priests are fake’ won’t go over well. But at a certain point, you either have to give up truth claims or embrace them, even at the cause of social embarrassment.

And if you solve the nose issue, let me know. That’s a constant struggle here . . .

]]> By: Nate Oman http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/on-the-blowing-of-noses-and-the-bearing-of-testimonies/#comment-103179 Nate Oman Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:56:04 +0000 /?p=2636#comment-103179 "The hypothesis is not without its chinks, particularly if pressed tight on the US or taken wide to the global" Which is a way of saying that it holds true for north-western Europe... “The hypothesis is not without its chinks, particularly if pressed tight on the US or taken wide to the global”

Which is a way of saying that it holds true for north-western Europe…

]]> By: annegb http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/on-the-blowing-of-noses-and-the-bearing-of-testimonies/#comment-103156 annegb Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:39:48 +0000 /?p=2636#comment-103156 Could you say, "that's a real church" and explain the difference? I guess that's what I would do. Which left my children a little confused, actually. I just couldn't let them think those people are any less God's children. Could you say, “that’s a real church” and explain the difference? I guess that’s what I would do. Which left my children a little confused, actually. I just couldn’t let them think those people are any less God’s children.

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