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	<title>Comments on: Coffee</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/coffee/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Chastity</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/coffee/#comment-105813</link>
		<dc:creator>Chastity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 03:02:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2675#comment-105813</guid>
		<description>I will not disagree with the Word of Wisdom or the prophets who say we shouldn&#039;t drink coffee. There is a drug in it, it is against the WOW, and money paying for it could be better spent. I honestly feel this is more about the abuse of this women from her husband. I think the point of the story is to understand that we must look past what we see in people and ask Heavenly Father what is really going on. Sometimes we judge the situation without really knowing or asking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will not disagree with the Word of Wisdom or the prophets who say we shouldn&#8217;t drink coffee. There is a drug in it, it is against the WOW, and money paying for it could be better spent. I honestly feel this is more about the abuse of this women from her husband. I think the point of the story is to understand that we must look past what we see in people and ask Heavenly Father what is really going on. Sometimes we judge the situation without really knowing or asking.</p>
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		<title>By: Wilfried</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/coffee/#comment-105695</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilfried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:15:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2675#comment-105695</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s an interesting way to look at it, Manaen. In theory it could: Irma drank the coffee to be able to enjoy the blessings of Church attendance. The difference would be the level of understanding: we believe Eve fully understood the procedure and the consequences. Not so Irma, because of her limited but conscientious insight (&quot;Can coffee keep someone out of heaven?&quot;), and because she would not talk about her plight. So she was alone to bear the burden of her worry about coffee (I would not say feelings of &quot;guilt&quot;, as deep in herself she must have known she was compelled to do it -- and therefore forgiven). What she wanted to hear from us, was some reassurance, but we failed to provide that because we did not know the source of her concerns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s an interesting way to look at it, Manaen. In theory it could: Irma drank the coffee to be able to enjoy the blessings of Church attendance. The difference would be the level of understanding: we believe Eve fully understood the procedure and the consequences. Not so Irma, because of her limited but conscientious insight (&#8220;Can coffee keep someone out of heaven?&#8221;), and because she would not talk about her plight. So she was alone to bear the burden of her worry about coffee (I would not say feelings of &#8220;guilt&#8221;, as deep in herself she must have known she was compelled to do it &#8212; and therefore forgiven). What she wanted to hear from us, was some reassurance, but we failed to provide that because we did not know the source of her concerns.</p>
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		<title>By: manaen</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/coffee/#comment-105684</link>
		<dc:creator>manaen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2005 18:12:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2675#comment-105684</guid>
		<description>Please pardon a stray question: How is Irma&#039;s coffee like/not like Eve&#039;s forbidden fruit? 
Eve rejoiced in the results of her decision (Mos 5:11).  Should(n&#039;t) Irma?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please pardon a stray question: How is Irma&#8217;s coffee like/not like Eve&#8217;s forbidden fruit?<br />
Eve rejoiced in the results of her decision (Mos 5:11).  Should(n&#8217;t) Irma?</p>
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		<title>By: Wilfried</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/coffee/#comment-105679</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilfried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:32:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2675#comment-105679</guid>
		<description>Thank you, UKAnn. Always good to see you around here.

LisaB, absolutely true. The harsh statistics and inside information are there to proof it. Even in Utah: &quot;In Utah, 144,000 children currently live in violent homes. Every 15 minutes four Utah children witness domestic violence.&quot; See e.g. &lt;a href=&quot;http://womhist.binghamton.edu/vawa/doc5d.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.udvc.org/home.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. Though there are signs that Utah is doing &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,615156244,00.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a good job&lt;/a&gt;&quot; in the combat.

Still, a recent report mentions that &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635160416,00.html&quot;&gt;domestic disputes claim one Utahn every 21 days&lt;/a&gt;&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, UKAnn. Always good to see you around here.</p>
<p>LisaB, absolutely true. The harsh statistics and inside information are there to proof it. Even in Utah: &#8220;In Utah, 144,000 children currently live in violent homes. Every 15 minutes four Utah children witness domestic violence.&#8221; See e.g. <a href="http://womhist.binghamton.edu/vawa/doc5d.htm" rel="nofollow">here</a> and <a href="http://www.udvc.org/home.htm" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Though there are signs that Utah is doing &#8220;<a href="http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,615156244,00.html" rel="nofollow">a good job</a>&#8221; in the combat.</p>
<p>Still, a recent report mentions that &#8220;<a href="http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635160416,00.html">domestic disputes claim one Utahn every 21 days</a>&#8220;.</p>
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		<title>By: LisaB</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/coffee/#comment-105664</link>
		<dc:creator>LisaB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2005 16:44:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2675#comment-105664</guid>
		<description>Home teachers, visiting teachers, extended family, even friends are not necessarily privy to abuse that occurs in others&#039; homes.  Even regular contact does not necessarily &quot;reveal&quot; abuse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Home teachers, visiting teachers, extended family, even friends are not necessarily privy to abuse that occurs in others&#8217; homes.  Even regular contact does not necessarily &#8220;reveal&#8221; abuse.</p>
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		<title>By: UKAnn</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/coffee/#comment-105660</link>
		<dc:creator>UKAnn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2005 16:38:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2675#comment-105660</guid>
		<description>Wilfried - Another beautiful and thought-provoking post.  What touches me more than anything was the situation in which Irma was placed.  Her anguished and concerned questions about coffee-drinking shows she knew what was doing was wrong, yet she was placed in such a position that she had to do it.  Many would have become inactive, thinking that they would never make it to the Celestial Kingdom, yet she stayed as faithful as she could.  I hope that she felt that Heavenly Father would judge her kindly, as I know He will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wilfried &#8211; Another beautiful and thought-provoking post.  What touches me more than anything was the situation in which Irma was placed.  Her anguished and concerned questions about coffee-drinking shows she knew what was doing was wrong, yet she was placed in such a position that she had to do it.  Many would have become inactive, thinking that they would never make it to the Celestial Kingdom, yet she stayed as faithful as she could.  I hope that she felt that Heavenly Father would judge her kindly, as I know He will.</p>
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		<title>By: Wilfried</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/coffee/#comment-105250</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilfried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Nov 2005 04:18:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2675#comment-105250</guid>
		<description>Great comparison, GreenEggz. I concur.

At the same time, to build on your comparison, we must probably recognize that on the old rust-bucket the risks of getting crushed by poorly lashed down cargo, or of falling off the ship through a rusted railing, are much greater than on the well-kept tanker with all the safety well in place. And thus, in a small struggling Church unit, the advantages of the learning process are partly offset by the higher ratio of people who become inactive. Refiner&#039;s fire. Would they have remained active in a well-functioning ward and in a Mormon environment? Probably, but also probably not as strong. For those who survive the small unit, the net-result is precious. Tenacious, experienced, contemporary pioneers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great comparison, GreenEggz. I concur.</p>
<p>At the same time, to build on your comparison, we must probably recognize that on the old rust-bucket the risks of getting crushed by poorly lashed down cargo, or of falling off the ship through a rusted railing, are much greater than on the well-kept tanker with all the safety well in place. And thus, in a small struggling Church unit, the advantages of the learning process are partly offset by the higher ratio of people who become inactive. Refiner&#8217;s fire. Would they have remained active in a well-functioning ward and in a Mormon environment? Probably, but also probably not as strong. For those who survive the small unit, the net-result is precious. Tenacious, experienced, contemporary pioneers.</p>
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		<title>By: GreenEggz</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/coffee/#comment-105242</link>
		<dc:creator>GreenEggz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Nov 2005 03:53:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2675#comment-105242</guid>
		<description>Wilfried, your stories illustrate something taught to me by the Chief Engineer aboard an ocean-going tanker when I was a cadet.  He counseled me that when I graduated from school to seek employment on an old rust-bucket of a ship where things are constantly breaking down in order to learn the quickest.  

There&#039;s a parallel to church work there.  One doesn&#039;t grow very fast when everything is running smoothly in a ward.  It is in the conflicts, tragedies, emergencies, shortcomings, failures, and struggles where the principles of the Gospel of Christ are illustrated where we can see them.

Teen members who are preparing for missions should pray to be posted to small branches where the church is not well-established.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wilfried, your stories illustrate something taught to me by the Chief Engineer aboard an ocean-going tanker when I was a cadet.  He counseled me that when I graduated from school to seek employment on an old rust-bucket of a ship where things are constantly breaking down in order to learn the quickest.  </p>
<p>There&#8217;s a parallel to church work there.  One doesn&#8217;t grow very fast when everything is running smoothly in a ward.  It is in the conflicts, tragedies, emergencies, shortcomings, failures, and struggles where the principles of the Gospel of Christ are illustrated where we can see them.</p>
<p>Teen members who are preparing for missions should pray to be posted to small branches where the church is not well-established.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosalynde</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/coffee/#comment-105153</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosalynde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Nov 2005 20:49:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2675#comment-105153</guid>
		<description>Christian, I&#039;ll confess that I&#039;ve never mastered the technical meaning of &quot;begging the question&quot;---and it&#039;s been explained to me very slowly by several very smart people, so I think I&#039;m hopeless---but I&#039;ll take your word for it. 

It seems to me that you&#039;re asking why &quot;being loyal to the church&quot; and &quot;being Christlike&quot; aren&#039;t one and the same, and suggesting that the disparity impairs the spiritual development of church members. Is this right?  If we think of &quot;Being Christlike&quot; as a large set of attributes and actions, then &quot;Loyalty to the Church&quot; is a subset of Christlike behavior---and it happens to be the subset that best predicts readiness for temple initiation, for the reasons I suggested above. 

As for your suggestion that &quot;temple-ready&quot; is not a fully adequte substitute for &quot;Christlike&quot;, and that misunderstanding the relationship of the two can hamper spiritual growth, I think you make a good point. Holding a temple recommend, even if one has no opportunity for temple worship, has been fetishized a bit by church leaders in recent years---probably precisely as a way to build loyalty to the Church in areas where it is institutionally weak. But we shouldn&#039;t fool ourselves into thinking that the recommend is a non-refundable ticket into heaven, that we have no more spiritual growth to accomplish, or, worse, that those who do not hold recommends are necessarily less Christlike than we.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christian, I&#8217;ll confess that I&#8217;ve never mastered the technical meaning of &#8220;begging the question&#8221;&#8212;and it&#8217;s been explained to me very slowly by several very smart people, so I think I&#8217;m hopeless&#8212;but I&#8217;ll take your word for it. </p>
<p>It seems to me that you&#8217;re asking why &#8220;being loyal to the church&#8221; and &#8220;being Christlike&#8221; aren&#8217;t one and the same, and suggesting that the disparity impairs the spiritual development of church members. Is this right?  If we think of &#8220;Being Christlike&#8221; as a large set of attributes and actions, then &#8220;Loyalty to the Church&#8221; is a subset of Christlike behavior&#8212;and it happens to be the subset that best predicts readiness for temple initiation, for the reasons I suggested above. </p>
<p>As for your suggestion that &#8220;temple-ready&#8221; is not a fully adequte substitute for &#8220;Christlike&#8221;, and that misunderstanding the relationship of the two can hamper spiritual growth, I think you make a good point. Holding a temple recommend, even if one has no opportunity for temple worship, has been fetishized a bit by church leaders in recent years&#8212;probably precisely as a way to build loyalty to the Church in areas where it is institutionally weak. But we shouldn&#8217;t fool ourselves into thinking that the recommend is a non-refundable ticket into heaven, that we have no more spiritual growth to accomplish, or, worse, that those who do not hold recommends are necessarily less Christlike than we.</p>
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		<title>By: Wilfried</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/coffee/#comment-105129</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilfried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Nov 2005 19:39:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2675#comment-105129</guid>
		<description>Seth, I see you just posted meanwhile and I&#039;ll confirm! In the Antwerp branch I was called to preside over, we had some 200 members on record by the time I was called, about 20 active, and 3 priesthood holders (including me). I was 23 and a student. We did what we could. And it was, despite all the challenges, wonderful &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php?p=1484&quot;&gt;as I have explained here.&lt;/a&gt; But sometimes we &quot;failed&quot; too, as in Irma&#039;s case.  No need to analyze the event in great detail, but the message I wanted to convey is simple to understand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seth, I see you just posted meanwhile and I&#8217;ll confirm! In the Antwerp branch I was called to preside over, we had some 200 members on record by the time I was called, about 20 active, and 3 priesthood holders (including me). I was 23 and a student. We did what we could. And it was, despite all the challenges, wonderful <a href="http://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php?p=1484">as I have explained here.</a> But sometimes we &#8220;failed&#8221; too, as in Irma&#8217;s case.  No need to analyze the event in great detail, but the message I wanted to convey is simple to understand.</p>
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