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	<title>Comments on: A Marketing Hypothetical</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/candle/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/candle/#comment-103205</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:07:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2635#comment-103205</guid>
		<description>That would be awesome.  Unless you meant it tongue-in-cheek? (grin)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That would be awesome.  Unless you meant it tongue-in-cheek? (grin)</p>
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		<title>By: John T.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/candle/#comment-103203</link>
		<dc:creator>John T.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:06:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2635#comment-103203</guid>
		<description>I have an idea of a commercial to be played at halftime of the BYU Notre Dame Game:

A modestly dressed young female student walks slowly, in front of Joyce Center.. at the University of Notre Dame... 

A female voice narrates:

&quot;During my campus visit to Notre Dame, I began to earnestly pray about which college to attend: BYU or Notre Dame? -- I had been accepted to both. suddenly, in a pillar of light, an angel appeared, and the angel spake unto me, saying: &#039;Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots...Those who attend here know not the name once written in their hearts; they have cast it out, as they would their neighbor&#039;s ass...&#039;

cut to her standing in front of the Marriot center holding a 9 month old child, speaking to the camera:

I am now at BYU, completing my degree in Home Economics. My husband and I live in a trailer park in Spanish Fork. Once he finishes his degree in Ancient Scripture Studies, he&#039;s going to work for Private Fuel Storage in Tooele. The Lord, indeed, has blessed us...

Brother Packer&#039;s voice intones:

BYU. Choose The Right.

.... Fade out to sunset over Kennecott Copper... Mormon Tabernacle Choir singing &quot;I&#039;m a Child of God&quot; in the background...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have an idea of a commercial to be played at halftime of the BYU Notre Dame Game:</p>
<p>A modestly dressed young female student walks slowly, in front of Joyce Center.. at the University of Notre Dame&#8230; </p>
<p>A female voice narrates:</p>
<p>&#8220;During my campus visit to Notre Dame, I began to earnestly pray about which college to attend: BYU or Notre Dame? &#8212; I had been accepted to both. suddenly, in a pillar of light, an angel appeared, and the angel spake unto me, saying: &#8216;Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots&#8230;Those who attend here know not the name once written in their hearts; they have cast it out, as they would their neighbor&#8217;s ass&#8230;&#8217;</p>
<p>cut to her standing in front of the Marriot center holding a 9 month old child, speaking to the camera:</p>
<p>I am now at BYU, completing my degree in Home Economics. My husband and I live in a trailer park in Spanish Fork. Once he finishes his degree in Ancient Scripture Studies, he&#8217;s going to work for Private Fuel Storage in Tooele. The Lord, indeed, has blessed us&#8230;</p>
<p>Brother Packer&#8217;s voice intones:</p>
<p>BYU. Choose The Right.</p>
<p>&#8230;. Fade out to sunset over Kennecott Copper&#8230; Mormon Tabernacle Choir singing &#8220;I&#8217;m a Child of God&#8221; in the background&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Lamonte</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/candle/#comment-103151</link>
		<dc:creator>Lamonte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2635#comment-103151</guid>
		<description>Seth - as an example - read Nate Oman&#039;s post of 07/25/2005.  Of the 98 comments, most were dripping with sappiness about their wonderful BYU experience.  Of course I&#039;m talking about BYU, the school - not the football team.  I suppose I have similar feelings about my own alma mater.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seth &#8211; as an example &#8211; read Nate Oman&#8217;s post of 07/25/2005.  Of the 98 comments, most were dripping with sappiness about their wonderful BYU experience.  Of course I&#8217;m talking about BYU, the school &#8211; not the football team.  I suppose I have similar feelings about my own alma mater.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Rogers</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/candle/#comment-103149</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Rogers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:03:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2635#comment-103149</guid>
		<description>Lamonte,

Pro-BYU? What website have you been following?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lamonte,</p>
<p>Pro-BYU? What website have you been following?</p>
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		<title>By: Lamonte</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/candle/#comment-103141</link>
		<dc:creator>Lamonte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:36:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2635#comment-103141</guid>
		<description>Jeremiah (Jeremy) - I know how old you are.  It was just a little more efficient to describe both you and Andrew as late twenties.  And yes, I believe ND will humiliate BYU this weekend.  I was just trying to be courteous to this mostly pro-BYU website.  Go Vandals!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremiah (Jeremy) &#8211; I know how old you are.  It was just a little more efficient to describe both you and Andrew as late twenties.  And yes, I believe ND will humiliate BYU this weekend.  I was just trying to be courteous to this mostly pro-BYU website.  Go Vandals!</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremiah J.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/candle/#comment-102986</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremiah J.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2005 06:06:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2635#comment-102986</guid>
		<description>Greg: (I think)  You asked if Notre Dame is Jesuit.  It&#039;s rather the Congregation of the Holy Cross.  That&#039;s what the CSC after the names of all the presidents and priests on the board means.

Lamonte: Dad--sorry to break it to you, but I&#039;m now 30 1/2, not late 20s.  Also, BYU may play out of their heads, but did you happen to see the game Saturday?  Notre Dame came (more than once) within inches of beating the &quot;best offense in modern college football history&quot;.  They now know how good they are, they&#039;re ticked off, and they&#039;re going to take it out on the hapless Cougars.  Brandon Hoyte also has a history of harming Mormons.

About the commercial:  I was actually surprised at how many students wrote into the ND school newpaper to complain about the ad.  Many of the complaints were simply dumb (e.g. &quot;what about the kids that didn&#039;t get in?  Doesn&#039;t God answer their prayers too?&quot;), but in general the comments showed that many students cared a lot about the relationship between Notre Dame and Catholicism.  They didn&#039;t want it to be just a cute marketing gimmick.  

Notre Dame isn&#039;t just part of a &quot;franchise&quot; of similar schools.  It&#039;s the best Catholic school in the country and in some sense the most Catholic one.  First of all the 85% Catholic among the undergrads I think beats BC and Georgetown easily (but I&#039;m not absolutely sure in the case of BC).  But I think it&#039;s also &quot;most Catholic&quot; in the sense that it&#039;s more of a cross section of American Catholicism (it includes the various ways in which American Catholics are Catholic) than the other major schools are.  (Though I don&#039;t want to fail to give Russell&#039;s alma mater its due on this point...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg: (I think)  You asked if Notre Dame is Jesuit.  It&#8217;s rather the Congregation of the Holy Cross.  That&#8217;s what the CSC after the names of all the presidents and priests on the board means.</p>
<p>Lamonte: Dad&#8211;sorry to break it to you, but I&#8217;m now 30 1/2, not late 20s.  Also, BYU may play out of their heads, but did you happen to see the game Saturday?  Notre Dame came (more than once) within inches of beating the &#8220;best offense in modern college football history&#8221;.  They now know how good they are, they&#8217;re ticked off, and they&#8217;re going to take it out on the hapless Cougars.  Brandon Hoyte also has a history of harming Mormons.</p>
<p>About the commercial:  I was actually surprised at how many students wrote into the ND school newpaper to complain about the ad.  Many of the complaints were simply dumb (e.g. &#8220;what about the kids that didn&#8217;t get in?  Doesn&#8217;t God answer their prayers too?&#8221;), but in general the comments showed that many students cared a lot about the relationship between Notre Dame and Catholicism.  They didn&#8217;t want it to be just a cute marketing gimmick.  </p>
<p>Notre Dame isn&#8217;t just part of a &#8220;franchise&#8221; of similar schools.  It&#8217;s the best Catholic school in the country and in some sense the most Catholic one.  First of all the 85% Catholic among the undergrads I think beats BC and Georgetown easily (but I&#8217;m not absolutely sure in the case of BC).  But I think it&#8217;s also &#8220;most Catholic&#8221; in the sense that it&#8217;s more of a cross section of American Catholicism (it includes the various ways in which American Catholics are Catholic) than the other major schools are.  (Though I don&#8217;t want to fail to give Russell&#8217;s alma mater its due on this point&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Call</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/candle/#comment-102910</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Call</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:53:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2635#comment-102910</guid>
		<description>I guess the admissions office needs to get their story straight on the geography thing. Because they sent one of their guys out here (California) who told the kids they were on a level playing field with kids in Utah and Idaho. He was very clear about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess the admissions office needs to get their story straight on the geography thing. Because they sent one of their guys out here (California) who told the kids they were on a level playing field with kids in Utah and Idaho. He was very clear about it.</p>
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		<title>By: The Wiz</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/candle/#comment-102906</link>
		<dc:creator>The Wiz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:44:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2635#comment-102906</guid>
		<description>My BIL and SIL (Maine-ers) went and visited the admissions office at BYU to ask if putting their son (who is now 10) in private school would help him get into BYU.

Their response - BYU admissions is completely numerically based.  ACT and GPA are the biggest factors in their equation.  Living outside of UT and ID does get factored in (but only those 2 states - no Mississippi demarcation).  It adds a small number to the equation, but not a lot.

Giving to the alumni association will not help get their son in.  And I quote &quot;Not at the Lord&#039;s University.&quot;  Also, when factoring in all the different BYU&#039;s (ID, HI, etc.)  acceptance is about 80%.  That is all I know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My BIL and SIL (Maine-ers) went and visited the admissions office at BYU to ask if putting their son (who is now 10) in private school would help him get into BYU.</p>
<p>Their response &#8211; BYU admissions is completely numerically based.  ACT and GPA are the biggest factors in their equation.  Living outside of UT and ID does get factored in (but only those 2 states &#8211; no Mississippi demarcation).  It adds a small number to the equation, but not a lot.</p>
<p>Giving to the alumni association will not help get their son in.  And I quote &#8220;Not at the Lord&#8217;s University.&#8221;  Also, when factoring in all the different BYU&#8217;s (ID, HI, etc.)  acceptance is about 80%.  That is all I know.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosalynde</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/candle/#comment-102905</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosalynde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:41:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2635#comment-102905</guid>
		<description>LOL, gst. Funny you should say that, I was just going to suggest &quot;Representations&quot; for this beaut: &quot;How ironic that you invoke heuristic discursion in the function/form of a self-subverting meta (non-meta?)-critique.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL, gst. Funny you should say that, I was just going to suggest &#8220;Representations&#8221; for this beaut: &#8220;How ironic that you invoke heuristic discursion in the function/form of a self-subverting meta (non-meta?)-critique.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Ben H</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/candle/#comment-102904</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:40:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2635#comment-102904</guid>
		<description>Lots of smart points here about the differences in the PR location of BYU versus ND. As an ND student myself, I found the commercial amusing, possibly a little bit self-mocking. My impression is that for most ND undergraduate students, the religious dimension is a minor factor in their choice of schools, although for many it is a plus. Notre Dame just has too much else going for it, and too little to deter those who don&#039;t care a lot about its religious character, for religion to be as big a deal in the overall student experience as it is at BYU. I do think a lot of people are big fans of Notre Dame, and not only of the football team. Notre Dame really is a great place, and it does a good job of cultivating alumni and other loyalties in ways that feature its religious character as one of many threads. My sense is Catholics generally speaking tend to pray for things, but be a good bit less serious about ascribing particular outcomes to divine providence than Mormons are.

That said, the new president (Fr. John Jenkins) seems to have a more agressive sense of what role religion should play at Notre Dame. So one could read this commercial as a gentle, partly light-hearted way to get out the message that ND really means to provide a higher type of education than is found almost anywhere else. 

I think it would serve BYU well to somehow in PR terms bring &quot;higher&quot; and &quot;education&quot; into a single concept, as this commercial does quite well, if only intuitively. The &quot;higher&quot; part of BYU--its religiosity--is being broadcast pretty well, whether people are persuaded that a BYU spirituality is actually higher or not. But how that actually makes a BYU &lt;i&gt;education&lt;/i&gt; better--I think that is something people are less clear on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lots of smart points here about the differences in the PR location of BYU versus ND. As an ND student myself, I found the commercial amusing, possibly a little bit self-mocking. My impression is that for most ND undergraduate students, the religious dimension is a minor factor in their choice of schools, although for many it is a plus. Notre Dame just has too much else going for it, and too little to deter those who don&#8217;t care a lot about its religious character, for religion to be as big a deal in the overall student experience as it is at BYU. I do think a lot of people are big fans of Notre Dame, and not only of the football team. Notre Dame really is a great place, and it does a good job of cultivating alumni and other loyalties in ways that feature its religious character as one of many threads. My sense is Catholics generally speaking tend to pray for things, but be a good bit less serious about ascribing particular outcomes to divine providence than Mormons are.</p>
<p>That said, the new president (Fr. John Jenkins) seems to have a more agressive sense of what role religion should play at Notre Dame. So one could read this commercial as a gentle, partly light-hearted way to get out the message that ND really means to provide a higher type of education than is found almost anywhere else. </p>
<p>I think it would serve BYU well to somehow in PR terms bring &#8220;higher&#8221; and &#8220;education&#8221; into a single concept, as this commercial does quite well, if only intuitively. The &#8220;higher&#8221; part of BYU&#8211;its religiosity&#8211;is being broadcast pretty well, whether people are persuaded that a BYU spirituality is actually higher or not. But how that actually makes a BYU <i>education</i> better&#8211;I think that is something people are less clear on.</p>
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