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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Why Universal Love is Creepy,&#8221; or &#8220;Thoughts on Disliking my Investigators&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/08/why-universal-love-is-creepy-or-thoughts-on-disliking-my-investigators/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: manaen</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/08/why-universal-love-is-creepy-or-thoughts-on-disliking-my-investigators/#comment-91958</link>
		<dc:creator>manaen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Aug 2005 01:06:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2523#comment-91958</guid>
		<description>31.
Tatiana, your last paragraph captures what I&#039;m coming to believe will be the Celestial Kingdom.  Not only will we be blessed by living in Heavenly Father&#039;s presence, but the sociality of *everyone* that resides there will bless us every moment because that kind of love will be natural to everyone there.

33. 
Jim, thx for combining the idea of growing love with a passage I&#039;d always considered only in the context of growing intelligence.

In light of that passage, now that I&#039;m beginning to enjoy the idea of being able to serve anyone, another level is beginning to appear: at-one-ness.  In cases of service, there is an inherent superior that has the surplus to give and an inherent inferior that has the deficiency to be filled.  Of course, Christian charity moves us to serve humbly, gladly whenever we can (see King Mosiah&#039;s speech).  However, Christ, while working out the atonement in Gethsemane, prayed that we all would be one as he and the Father are one.  This goes much deeper than handing bread and cheese to beggars or mourning with those that mourn, etc.  It takes us from caring about or emanating love (&quot;loving at&quot;) somebody to merging hearts.  This would create a whole new bouyancy in the souls of the downtrodden.  I&#039;m trying to understand what would be oneness with each person that I meet and how I can develop it.  It&#039;s a new door for me and I&#039;m just beginning to work out what&#039;s on the other side.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>31.<br />
Tatiana, your last paragraph captures what I&#8217;m coming to believe will be the Celestial Kingdom.  Not only will we be blessed by living in Heavenly Father&#8217;s presence, but the sociality of *everyone* that resides there will bless us every moment because that kind of love will be natural to everyone there.</p>
<p>33.<br />
Jim, thx for combining the idea of growing love with a passage I&#8217;d always considered only in the context of growing intelligence.</p>
<p>In light of that passage, now that I&#8217;m beginning to enjoy the idea of being able to serve anyone, another level is beginning to appear: at-one-ness.  In cases of service, there is an inherent superior that has the surplus to give and an inherent inferior that has the deficiency to be filled.  Of course, Christian charity moves us to serve humbly, gladly whenever we can (see King Mosiah&#8217;s speech).  However, Christ, while working out the atonement in Gethsemane, prayed that we all would be one as he and the Father are one.  This goes much deeper than handing bread and cheese to beggars or mourning with those that mourn, etc.  It takes us from caring about or emanating love (&#8220;loving at&#8221;) somebody to merging hearts.  This would create a whole new bouyancy in the souls of the downtrodden.  I&#8217;m trying to understand what would be oneness with each person that I meet and how I can develop it.  It&#8217;s a new door for me and I&#8217;m just beginning to work out what&#8217;s on the other side.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim H.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/08/why-universal-love-is-creepy-or-thoughts-on-disliking-my-investigators/#comment-91942</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:32:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2523#comment-91942</guid>
		<description>I like Don&#039;s 1-100 scale idea (#6) though I prefer to think of it as &quot;levels of vibration&quot; without numerical limits.  Like &quot;a light that has power to light other lights,&quot; to borrow Elder Packer&#039;s favorite analogy (though used here in a more meta-physical sense!), we resonate/glow as the vibration finally hits us, and we in turn radiate out the same pitch/light/feeling.  

&quot;We love him, because he first loved us.&quot;  1 John 4:19.

I also like manaen&#039;s comment (#28):  that love is less about ability, more about willingness.  We gradually learn not to concern ourselves with the &quot;worthiness&quot; of the object of our love but instead simply emanate love outward as wide as we can, to whomever might be around us, because Loving has become the essense of our being.  It&#039;s easy, of course, in the beginning stages of this process, to love those that we already like.  But imagine the beacons our souls can become when we learn to love those who are most un-lovable to us!  And that light grows &quot;brighter and brighter until the perfect day.&quot; (D&amp;C 50:24).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like Don&#8217;s 1-100 scale idea (#6) though I prefer to think of it as &#8220;levels of vibration&#8221; without numerical limits.  Like &#8220;a light that has power to light other lights,&#8221; to borrow Elder Packer&#8217;s favorite analogy (though used here in a more meta-physical sense!), we resonate/glow as the vibration finally hits us, and we in turn radiate out the same pitch/light/feeling.  </p>
<p>&#8220;We love him, because he first loved us.&#8221;  1 John 4:19.</p>
<p>I also like manaen&#8217;s comment (#28):  that love is less about ability, more about willingness.  We gradually learn not to concern ourselves with the &#8220;worthiness&#8221; of the object of our love but instead simply emanate love outward as wide as we can, to whomever might be around us, because Loving has become the essense of our being.  It&#8217;s easy, of course, in the beginning stages of this process, to love those that we already like.  But imagine the beacons our souls can become when we learn to love those who are most un-lovable to us!  And that light grows &#8220;brighter and brighter until the perfect day.&#8221; (D&#038;C 50:24).</p>
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		<title>By: Ivan Wolfe</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/08/why-universal-love-is-creepy-or-thoughts-on-disliking-my-investigators/#comment-91748</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivan Wolfe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Aug 2005 00:14:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2523#comment-91748</guid>
		<description>Re: the end of #31

I recall a scene from the sci-fi novle &lt;i&gt;A Canticle for Leibowitz&lt;/i&gt;
In it a scientist is debating a monk.  The scientist believes that post nuclear holocaust humansare a degenerate slave race that served the higher beings who were killed off by the bombs.  As proof, he points out some seemingly mindless lower class drudge who is clearly suffering from syphilis while working at a menial task.  The scientist says he sees this and cannot believe that this man is part of the true heritage of humanity.  He then asks the monk what he sees, and the monk replies &quot;The image of Christ.&quot;

Not sure if that applies, but to me it seems to bear on the discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: the end of #31</p>
<p>I recall a scene from the sci-fi novle <i>A Canticle for Leibowitz</i><br />
In it a scientist is debating a monk.  The scientist believes that post nuclear holocaust humansare a degenerate slave race that served the higher beings who were killed off by the bombs.  As proof, he points out some seemingly mindless lower class drudge who is clearly suffering from syphilis while working at a menial task.  The scientist says he sees this and cannot believe that this man is part of the true heritage of humanity.  He then asks the monk what he sees, and the monk replies &#8220;The image of Christ.&#8221;</p>
<p>Not sure if that applies, but to me it seems to bear on the discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: Tatiana</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/08/why-universal-love-is-creepy-or-thoughts-on-disliking-my-investigators/#comment-91746</link>
		<dc:creator>Tatiana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Aug 2005 23:17:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2523#comment-91746</guid>
		<description>Well, in her pride did Elizabeth not rather value her own gifts above those of the others?  Jane she valued and admired and adored for her goodness and generosity, which Elizabeth acknowleged were greater than her own.  Yet what gifts were her mother and younger sisters given which she didn&#039;t possess and didn&#039;t see?  It&#039;s hard to tell from the book, really.  Because she didn&#039;t see them, she didn&#039;t show them to us.  Yet they were certainly there.  Perhaps it was only the humility to see and daily experience Elizabeth&#039;s disdain for them and not love her any less for it.

It&#039;s very difficult, the injunction we&#039;ve been given to love everyone, and yet is it okay that we should say, &quot;that&#039;s too hard, it&#039;s impossible, I can&#039;t do it&quot;?  I can&#039;t bring myself to feel that is acceptable to Christ.  I know that it&#039;s possible to love everyone, for Christ does.  So I just have to keep going back on my knees and asking for help to learn how.

I know people, too, who truly love everyone with a love unfeigned.  You can just feel their love.  It&#039;s not contingent or conditional.  Far from feeling insulted by this, I feel exalted by it.  And I realize that I, too, can have the overflowing joy that always attends those people.

Two things I found that help.  One is the principle that anyone to whom you consistently render loving service, over time your heart will come to feel love for them.  I think that may be how missionaries begin sincerely to love those they serve.  Certainly parents&#039; love for their children is strengthened in just this way.  To feel love for someone, render them loving service.  This always works.

The second thing is to take Christ&#039;s perspective, and the best analogy I&#039;ve found for this is think of the feeling a parent has seeing his or her children be harsh or cruel to one another.  It&#039;s heartbreaking to watch.  The same is true for me with my animals.  When they fight and contend I feel exceedingly sad and wish they could love each other with something like the love I have for each of them.  Every time this happens, I think of Christ looking at all of us in the same way.  Any time we contend or feel anger or distaste or contempt one for another it must truly break his heart, for he loves each of us so very much, and has suffered so much for our sakes.  When I remember that, and how he gave us his commandment, that we should love one another as he loves us, I feel chastened, and for a moment I get a glimpse of how things should be between all of us always.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, in her pride did Elizabeth not rather value her own gifts above those of the others?  Jane she valued and admired and adored for her goodness and generosity, which Elizabeth acknowleged were greater than her own.  Yet what gifts were her mother and younger sisters given which she didn&#8217;t possess and didn&#8217;t see?  It&#8217;s hard to tell from the book, really.  Because she didn&#8217;t see them, she didn&#8217;t show them to us.  Yet they were certainly there.  Perhaps it was only the humility to see and daily experience Elizabeth&#8217;s disdain for them and not love her any less for it.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s very difficult, the injunction we&#8217;ve been given to love everyone, and yet is it okay that we should say, &#8220;that&#8217;s too hard, it&#8217;s impossible, I can&#8217;t do it&#8221;?  I can&#8217;t bring myself to feel that is acceptable to Christ.  I know that it&#8217;s possible to love everyone, for Christ does.  So I just have to keep going back on my knees and asking for help to learn how.</p>
<p>I know people, too, who truly love everyone with a love unfeigned.  You can just feel their love.  It&#8217;s not contingent or conditional.  Far from feeling insulted by this, I feel exalted by it.  And I realize that I, too, can have the overflowing joy that always attends those people.</p>
<p>Two things I found that help.  One is the principle that anyone to whom you consistently render loving service, over time your heart will come to feel love for them.  I think that may be how missionaries begin sincerely to love those they serve.  Certainly parents&#8217; love for their children is strengthened in just this way.  To feel love for someone, render them loving service.  This always works.</p>
<p>The second thing is to take Christ&#8217;s perspective, and the best analogy I&#8217;ve found for this is think of the feeling a parent has seeing his or her children be harsh or cruel to one another.  It&#8217;s heartbreaking to watch.  The same is true for me with my animals.  When they fight and contend I feel exceedingly sad and wish they could love each other with something like the love I have for each of them.  Every time this happens, I think of Christ looking at all of us in the same way.  Any time we contend or feel anger or distaste or contempt one for another it must truly break his heart, for he loves each of us so very much, and has suffered so much for our sakes.  When I remember that, and how he gave us his commandment, that we should love one another as he loves us, I feel chastened, and for a moment I get a glimpse of how things should be between all of us always.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Rogers</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/08/why-universal-love-is-creepy-or-thoughts-on-disliking-my-investigators/#comment-91328</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Rogers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Aug 2005 14:55:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2523#comment-91328</guid>
		<description>I suppose it&#039;s time to throw in Pres. Kimball:

&quot;It is better to be respected than to be loved.&quot;

Love can be given freely to people we really don&#039;t have a high opinion of.

Elisabeth in Pride and Predjudice said something similar: &quot;There are few people I really love and even fewer of whom I think highly.&quot;

When you consider what a twit her mother (and some of her sisters) was, the statement becomes clear. She was constantly embarrassed by her mother and didn&#039;t respect her at all. But she did love her (which might be why mom&#039;s antics pained her so much).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose it&#8217;s time to throw in Pres. Kimball:</p>
<p>&#8220;It is better to be respected than to be loved.&#8221;</p>
<p>Love can be given freely to people we really don&#8217;t have a high opinion of.</p>
<p>Elisabeth in Pride and Predjudice said something similar: &#8220;There are few people I really love and even fewer of whom I think highly.&#8221;</p>
<p>When you consider what a twit her mother (and some of her sisters) was, the statement becomes clear. She was constantly embarrassed by her mother and didn&#8217;t respect her at all. But she did love her (which might be why mom&#8217;s antics pained her so much).</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen M (Ethesis)</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/08/why-universal-love-is-creepy-or-thoughts-on-disliking-my-investigators/#comment-90917</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen M (Ethesis)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Aug 2005 23:23:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2523#comment-90917</guid>
		<description>My dad lived in Korea as a young man.  He served with the ROK dragon battalion doing forward fire control in &#039;69-70.  He did flood rescue field work during the flood in &#039;73 and served a mission not too long ago.  When he says he loves the Korean people there is nothing of &quot;a sort of patronizing, even condescending, tone&quot; about him.

On the other hand, I merely like the Koreans I know at Church.  They are neat and I really liked the son I taught in Primary.

But we can be filled with compassion and charity for all mankind.

And feel sorrow to know that someone&#039;s parents have been divorced, regardless of what we think about them otherwise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My dad lived in Korea as a young man.  He served with the ROK dragon battalion doing forward fire control in &#8217;69-70.  He did flood rescue field work during the flood in &#8217;73 and served a mission not too long ago.  When he says he loves the Korean people there is nothing of &#8220;a sort of patronizing, even condescending, tone&#8221; about him.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I merely like the Koreans I know at Church.  They are neat and I really liked the son I taught in Primary.</p>
<p>But we can be filled with compassion and charity for all mankind.</p>
<p>And feel sorrow to know that someone&#8217;s parents have been divorced, regardless of what we think about them otherwise.</p>
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		<title>By: manaen</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/08/why-universal-love-is-creepy-or-thoughts-on-disliking-my-investigators/#comment-90912</link>
		<dc:creator>manaen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2523#comment-90912</guid>
		<description>27.
Daniel, good to hear you found some value.  Sis. Rasband&#039;s book opens a door that leads from the world of doctrine, exposition, analysis, critical understanding to one of peace, caring, spirit.  From pride to humility.  

Then, once through that door, one&#039;s heart is ready to be filled with God&#039;s love and to guide you in self-less love for others.  This life becomes very simple: just find ways to help.  We can drop all the tiring analysis of who&#039;s more (insert favorite basis for pride here) because we now understand that anybody can give what they have to the Master, which, feed-my-sheep style, means to any neighbor.  Those comparisons are pointless because anyone can give what they have: the retarded child in Chile can wish the President of France a good day.  Service is not limited comparative ability, just by the willingness to help.  

The two basic commandments of love God and neighbor become not just commandments but the veiwpoint from which you see the world.  You end up doing what seem like goofy things, like stopping 3 times in one night to help stranded motorists, because you enjoy it and you can&#039;t bear not to help.  When filled with God&#039;s love and forgiveness, we can&#039;t refrain from helping.  As Scrooge said in my favorite film version, after showing his new-found love on Christmas,  &quot; I don&#039;t deserve to be this happy... but I just can&#039;t help it!&quot;

We naturally feel not only &quot;inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of these, ...ye have done it unto me,&quot; (Matt 25:40) but it&#039;s following opposite, &quot;inasmuch as ye did it *not* unto the least of these, ye did it *not* unto me.&quot; (v 45).  How is this?  Here&#039;s a possibility:  If Jesus suffered for the sins, illnesses, pains, afflictions, and infirmities each of us have (Al 7:10-12), and we lessen those our neighbor has, do we then lessen the suffering Jesus felt in the atonement?  LIkewise &quot;If you love me, keep my commandments.&quot; (Jn 14:15) may not be a request for obedience as obeisance so much as &quot;If you love me, don&#039;t add to the pain I endured for the commandments you do not keep.  I love you and I will take this pain for you, but if you love me, don&#039;t add to it.&quot;  I&#039;m not sure that we literally can lessen the pain that Jesus felt in Gethsemane and at Golgotha with our service and obedience.  However, I am sure that the Father and the Son now grieve for our pains and disobedience and that we can lessen their sorrow or increase their joy today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>27.<br />
Daniel, good to hear you found some value.  Sis. Rasband&#8217;s book opens a door that leads from the world of doctrine, exposition, analysis, critical understanding to one of peace, caring, spirit.  From pride to humility.  </p>
<p>Then, once through that door, one&#8217;s heart is ready to be filled with God&#8217;s love and to guide you in self-less love for others.  This life becomes very simple: just find ways to help.  We can drop all the tiring analysis of who&#8217;s more (insert favorite basis for pride here) because we now understand that anybody can give what they have to the Master, which, feed-my-sheep style, means to any neighbor.  Those comparisons are pointless because anyone can give what they have: the retarded child in Chile can wish the President of France a good day.  Service is not limited comparative ability, just by the willingness to help.  </p>
<p>The two basic commandments of love God and neighbor become not just commandments but the veiwpoint from which you see the world.  You end up doing what seem like goofy things, like stopping 3 times in one night to help stranded motorists, because you enjoy it and you can&#8217;t bear not to help.  When filled with God&#8217;s love and forgiveness, we can&#8217;t refrain from helping.  As Scrooge said in my favorite film version, after showing his new-found love on Christmas,  &#8221; I don&#8217;t deserve to be this happy&#8230; but I just can&#8217;t help it!&#8221;</p>
<p>We naturally feel not only &#8220;inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of these, &#8230;ye have done it unto me,&#8221; (Matt 25:40) but it&#8217;s following opposite, &#8220;inasmuch as ye did it *not* unto the least of these, ye did it *not* unto me.&#8221; (v 45).  How is this?  Here&#8217;s a possibility:  If Jesus suffered for the sins, illnesses, pains, afflictions, and infirmities each of us have (Al 7:10-12), and we lessen those our neighbor has, do we then lessen the suffering Jesus felt in the atonement?  LIkewise &#8220;If you love me, keep my commandments.&#8221; (Jn 14:15) may not be a request for obedience as obeisance so much as &#8220;If you love me, don&#8217;t add to the pain I endured for the commandments you do not keep.  I love you and I will take this pain for you, but if you love me, don&#8217;t add to it.&#8221;  I&#8217;m not sure that we literally can lessen the pain that Jesus felt in Gethsemane and at Golgotha with our service and obedience.  However, I am sure that the Father and the Son now grieve for our pains and disobedience and that we can lessen their sorrow or increase their joy today.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/08/why-universal-love-is-creepy-or-thoughts-on-disliking-my-investigators/#comment-90745</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:33:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2523#comment-90745</guid>
		<description>manaen and texasviolinist -- you girls (guys? whatever) are on a roll today.  Keep &#039;em coming.  I am enjoying your comments.  Rasband sounds good.  i might have to buy the book, though I usually avoid overtly Mormon books that don&#039;t promise doctrine a la Nibley like the plague.  Guess you&#039;re helping me overcome one of my prejudices.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>manaen and texasviolinist &#8212; you girls (guys? whatever) are on a roll today.  Keep &#8216;em coming.  I am enjoying your comments.  Rasband sounds good.  i might have to buy the book, though I usually avoid overtly Mormon books that don&#8217;t promise doctrine a la Nibley like the plague.  Guess you&#8217;re helping me overcome one of my prejudices.</p>
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		<title>By: texasviolinist</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/08/why-universal-love-is-creepy-or-thoughts-on-disliking-my-investigators/#comment-90719</link>
		<dc:creator>texasviolinist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:22:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2523#comment-90719</guid>
		<description>Because so many people are hypocrites about loving everyone and because we can&#039;t possible do it we should give up on the notion right?.....??




wrong</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because so many people are hypocrites about loving everyone and because we can&#8217;t possible do it we should give up on the notion right?&#8230;..??</p>
<p>wrong</p>
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		<title>By: jjohnsen</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/08/why-universal-love-is-creepy-or-thoughts-on-disliking-my-investigators/#comment-90700</link>
		<dc:creator>jjohnsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:28:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2523#comment-90700</guid>
		<description>texasviolinist just described every ward I&#039;ve lived in.  The same people that would proclaim how much they loved everyone in the ward wouldn&#039;t be caught dead moving out of their clique to actually speak to all those people they love.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>texasviolinist just described every ward I&#8217;ve lived in.  The same people that would proclaim how much they loved everyone in the ward wouldn&#8217;t be caught dead moving out of their clique to actually speak to all those people they love.</p>
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