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	<title>Comments on: John Roberts and Mormon Theology</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/07/john-roberts-and-mormon-theology/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Kingsley</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/07/john-roberts-and-mormon-theology/#comment-86086</link>
		<dc:creator>Kingsley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:23:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2439#comment-86086</guid>
		<description>http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4130</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4130" rel="nofollow">http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4130</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mark B.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/07/john-roberts-and-mormon-theology/#comment-86060</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:46:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2439#comment-86060</guid>
		<description>A late note:  Taking the &lt;i&gt;in rem&lt;/i&gt; nature of admiralty actions one step further, the ship that is subject to a legal proceeding (whether arising out of an accident or for failure to pay the mortgage) is not &quot;attached&quot; (the word we dry land lawyers use to describe taking a piece of property to satisty a judgment or prevent the dissipation of the property prior to judgment) but &quot;arrested.&quot;  That usage takes some getting used to, since I just can&#039;t see Marshal Dillon pulling his Colt .45 on the &lt;i&gt;Delta Queen&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A late note:  Taking the <i>in rem</i> nature of admiralty actions one step further, the ship that is subject to a legal proceeding (whether arising out of an accident or for failure to pay the mortgage) is not &#8220;attached&#8221; (the word we dry land lawyers use to describe taking a piece of property to satisty a judgment or prevent the dissipation of the property prior to judgment) but &#8220;arrested.&#8221;  That usage takes some getting used to, since I just can&#8217;t see Marshal Dillon pulling his Colt .45 on the <i>Delta Queen</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Enochs</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/07/john-roberts-and-mormon-theology/#comment-86055</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Enochs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:38:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2439#comment-86055</guid>
		<description>John Roberts is a good and wise pick by President Bush.  The problems that the GOP had in trying to get Judge Robert Bork (failed in 1987) and Clarrence Thomas (passed in 1991), demonstrates the difficult waters the GOP faces in attempting to get any conservative into the supreme court.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Roberts is a good and wise pick by President Bush.  The problems that the GOP had in trying to get Judge Robert Bork (failed in 1987) and Clarrence Thomas (passed in 1991), demonstrates the difficult waters the GOP faces in attempting to get any conservative into the supreme court.</p>
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		<title>By: Kelly</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/07/john-roberts-and-mormon-theology/#comment-85717</link>
		<dc:creator>Kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2005 03:30:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2439#comment-85717</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry, but I always thought the theology was the &quot;study&quot; of God, not &quot;theories&quot; about God.  Our theology, or study of God, is based on revelation from God, those things that He wants us to KNOW about Him, not those things He wants us to theorize about Him.

Second, I hope, at least to some extent, that Roberts finds the basis for his decision making not In his religious upbringing- though difficult to separate from the person, I understand- but rather on his strict interpretation of the constitution, hopefully as an originalist.  I would hope this of any jurist on the Supreme Court, Catholic, LDS, Jewish, or atheist for that matter, and in fact for any court, though wishful thinking it may be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry, but I always thought the theology was the &#8220;study&#8221; of God, not &#8220;theories&#8221; about God.  Our theology, or study of God, is based on revelation from God, those things that He wants us to KNOW about Him, not those things He wants us to theorize about Him.</p>
<p>Second, I hope, at least to some extent, that Roberts finds the basis for his decision making not In his religious upbringing- though difficult to separate from the person, I understand- but rather on his strict interpretation of the constitution, hopefully as an originalist.  I would hope this of any jurist on the Supreme Court, Catholic, LDS, Jewish, or atheist for that matter, and in fact for any court, though wishful thinking it may be.</p>
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		<title>By: annegb</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/07/john-roberts-and-mormon-theology/#comment-85596</link>
		<dc:creator>annegb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:45:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2439#comment-85596</guid>
		<description>The thing about Roberts that bothers me is that he won&#039;t own up to his baldness.  I think bald men are attractive and those who wear toupees (even good ones) are somehow less courageous and honest.  I&#039;m not being facetious, this really bothers me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing about Roberts that bothers me is that he won&#8217;t own up to his baldness.  I think bald men are attractive and those who wear toupees (even good ones) are somehow less courageous and honest.  I&#8217;m not being facetious, this really bothers me.</p>
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		<title>By: comet</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/07/john-roberts-and-mormon-theology/#comment-85592</link>
		<dc:creator>comet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:36:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2439#comment-85592</guid>
		<description>oopps...rule of law as an explicit body of doctrine.  I think I basically agree with Nate&#039;s assessment of church decisions as akin to common law but I guess I see the strong procedural nature of church revelation as constitutive of &quot;revelation&quot; rather than just as second order reflection.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oopps&#8230;rule of law as an explicit body of doctrine.  I think I basically agree with Nate&#8217;s assessment of church decisions as akin to common law but I guess I see the strong procedural nature of church revelation as constitutive of &#8220;revelation&#8221; rather than just as second order reflection.</p>
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		<title>By: comet</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/07/john-roberts-and-mormon-theology/#comment-85585</link>
		<dc:creator>comet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:23:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2439#comment-85585</guid>
		<description>OK we theorize after the fact of revelation in the manner of Hegel&#039;s owl of Minerva.  I agree that Mormons don&#039;t officially do theology and that whatever theology (making sense of things; attempting to systematize and extrapolate spiritual laws and metaphysical dimensions from essentially that which is ad hoc) individuals within the church can muster must compete in the informal marketplace of elders quorums, blogs, foyer small talk, etc.  It may be that there are no ultimately untouchable doctrines in the church (certainly no creeds); I mean, if a doctrinal practice such as polygamy, something believed by many at the time to be a definitive doctrine worthy of every sacrifice and form of persecution, could be reversed why not any given doctrine in today&#039;s church (theoretically speaking)?  The idea of doctrine just seems to have more bark than bite in this church.

That said, have you considered procedural theories in the church ? These always limit (institutional) revelation prior to the fact thereof, especially as to who is qualified to recieve a revelation.  Here are a few obvious features that strike me as compelling:
1.For example, revelations to the highest councils for obvious reasons never have an acknowledged source in the institutional ranks below or outside the church institution itself (which also includes the canonized lineage of prophet figures); 
2.no binding revelations have their source in a woman;  
3. decisions made at every level are to be assumed revelatory or inspired.
4. revelations have limited jurisdictions of authority in the church (unless your the prophet); 
5. revelations have a half-life or shelf life i.e. who worries about toeing the line to Elder Richard L Evan&#039;s revelations of yesteryear?; 
6. revelations must be submitted to a sustaining by common consent (as a body and individually in the case of callings and particulary in the case of marriage proposals).

Nothing particularly new here but what we get in procedural revelation is less the rule of law than the rule of man (procedurally inspired).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK we theorize after the fact of revelation in the manner of Hegel&#8217;s owl of Minerva.  I agree that Mormons don&#8217;t officially do theology and that whatever theology (making sense of things; attempting to systematize and extrapolate spiritual laws and metaphysical dimensions from essentially that which is ad hoc) individuals within the church can muster must compete in the informal marketplace of elders quorums, blogs, foyer small talk, etc.  It may be that there are no ultimately untouchable doctrines in the church (certainly no creeds); I mean, if a doctrinal practice such as polygamy, something believed by many at the time to be a definitive doctrine worthy of every sacrifice and form of persecution, could be reversed why not any given doctrine in today&#8217;s church (theoretically speaking)?  The idea of doctrine just seems to have more bark than bite in this church.</p>
<p>That said, have you considered procedural theories in the church ? These always limit (institutional) revelation prior to the fact thereof, especially as to who is qualified to recieve a revelation.  Here are a few obvious features that strike me as compelling:<br />
1.For example, revelations to the highest councils for obvious reasons never have an acknowledged source in the institutional ranks below or outside the church institution itself (which also includes the canonized lineage of prophet figures);<br />
2.no binding revelations have their source in a woman;<br />
3. decisions made at every level are to be assumed revelatory or inspired.<br />
4. revelations have limited jurisdictions of authority in the church (unless your the prophet);<br />
5. revelations have a half-life or shelf life i.e. who worries about toeing the line to Elder Richard L Evan&#8217;s revelations of yesteryear?;<br />
6. revelations must be submitted to a sustaining by common consent (as a body and individually in the case of callings and particulary in the case of marriage proposals).</p>
<p>Nothing particularly new here but what we get in procedural revelation is less the rule of law than the rule of man (procedurally inspired).</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/07/john-roberts-and-mormon-theology/#comment-85189</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:03:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2439#comment-85189</guid>
		<description>I tend to think that pragmatism without realism is nihilism.  However I&#039;m not sure I see Nietzsche as a nihilist.  But that&#039;s neither here nor there.  But that does answer what I was getting at rather concisely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tend to think that pragmatism without realism is nihilism.  However I&#8217;m not sure I see Nietzsche as a nihilist.  But that&#8217;s neither here nor there.  But that does answer what I was getting at rather concisely.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/07/john-roberts-and-mormon-theology/#comment-85128</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:28:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2439#comment-85128</guid>
		<description>Clark: At the end of the day, however, I think that there is pretty good evidence that Holmes was a nihilist.  Certainly, Richard Posner reads him this way, and I think he makes a pretty good point.  You ought to take a look at his introduction to the _Essential Holmes_ where he argues that Holmes was the American Nietzche, something that might interest you given your penchant for Continental philosophy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clark: At the end of the day, however, I think that there is pretty good evidence that Holmes was a nihilist.  Certainly, Richard Posner reads him this way, and I think he makes a pretty good point.  You ought to take a look at his introduction to the _Essential Holmes_ where he argues that Holmes was the American Nietzche, something that might interest you given your penchant for Continental philosophy.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/07/john-roberts-and-mormon-theology/#comment-85125</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:26:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2439#comment-85125</guid>
		<description>Dave: I am not talking about orthodoxy but about theology, literally theories about God.  I agree with you that there is a bit of a circularity problem.  We often use theology to identify revelation, e.g. the standard works are inspired, general conference is inspired, but your Sunday school lessons are not.  This means that the explanation is being used as the critieria for recognizing that which is being explained.  I am not quite sure how to deal with this issue.  However, it seems to me that our theology tends to come after our revelations rather than before them.  This means that later decisions, as it were, have retroactive effect on meaning and significance.  This, of course, just frustrates the hell out of the historians, who like to think of the original meaning as having priority and subsequent meanings as being distorted mythmaking.  There is some truth to this, I am sure, but it occurs to me that the common law might be a better way of thinking about this.  For example, in the twentieth century, American and English courts cited nineteenth century consideration cases to support the bargain theory of consideration.  There is little doubt that this is not what these cases originally meant.  Yet as a matter of law, this is what they actually mean today.  The subsequent decisions have altered and changed their meaning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave: I am not talking about orthodoxy but about theology, literally theories about God.  I agree with you that there is a bit of a circularity problem.  We often use theology to identify revelation, e.g. the standard works are inspired, general conference is inspired, but your Sunday school lessons are not.  This means that the explanation is being used as the critieria for recognizing that which is being explained.  I am not quite sure how to deal with this issue.  However, it seems to me that our theology tends to come after our revelations rather than before them.  This means that later decisions, as it were, have retroactive effect on meaning and significance.  This, of course, just frustrates the hell out of the historians, who like to think of the original meaning as having priority and subsequent meanings as being distorted mythmaking.  There is some truth to this, I am sure, but it occurs to me that the common law might be a better way of thinking about this.  For example, in the twentieth century, American and English courts cited nineteenth century consideration cases to support the bargain theory of consideration.  There is little doubt that this is not what these cases originally meant.  Yet as a matter of law, this is what they actually mean today.  The subsequent decisions have altered and changed their meaning.</p>
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