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	<title>Comments on: Mormons and Markets, III: Strangers and Neighbors</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/05/mormons-and-markets-iii-strangers-and-neighbors/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Stephen M (Ethesis)</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/05/mormons-and-markets-iii-strangers-and-neighbors/#comment-76305</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen M (Ethesis)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 May 2005 21:17:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2311#comment-76305</guid>
		<description>BTW, for Nate, I finally got started on my thread on communal organizations.

http://ethesis.blogspot.com/2005/05/utopias-are-interesting-things.html

The most successful of them are embedded in market systems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW, for Nate, I finally got started on my thread on communal organizations.</p>
<p><a href="http://ethesis.blogspot.com/2005/05/utopias-are-interesting-things.html" rel="nofollow">http://ethesis.blogspot.com/2005/05/utopias-are-interesting-things.html</a></p>
<p>The most successful of them are embedded in market systems.</p>
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		<title>By: David Salmanson</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/05/mormons-and-markets-iii-strangers-and-neighbors/#comment-76295</link>
		<dc:creator>David Salmanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 May 2005 19:55:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2311#comment-76295</guid>
		<description>On the one hand, I&#039;m intrigued by this whole thread.  For example, the idea that religious toleration = economic success provides an alternative explanation for the decline of the House of Islam.  When Islam was more tolerant than the West, it was economically dominant, as the west became more tolerant - say in the 18th century - it began to pass the House of Islam in terms of economic productivity and religious tolerance.  However, China, which was not particularly tolerant (or tolerant up to a point) was the dominant economic power during most of the period prior to 1900 and the period when it was most toelrant (under the Mongols) was one of its less prosperous periods.  

But the idea that market always manage alienation and difference peacefully seems to me to be completely ahistorical.  Becasue markets are always enmeshed in cultural assumptions, they are never value free.  A few violent market related episodes ranging from slavery (and the ensuing wars in Africa that supported it), the Dutch take over in Indonesia, the Pullman strike, the Lowell massacre etc. all suggest that markets can lead to violent outcomes as well as peaceful ones.  The World that Trade Created by Pomeranz and Topik is an extremely entertaining collection of essays that explore the intersection of markets and cultures with some interesting and surprising results.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the one hand, I&#8217;m intrigued by this whole thread.  For example, the idea that religious toleration = economic success provides an alternative explanation for the decline of the House of Islam.  When Islam was more tolerant than the West, it was economically dominant, as the west became more tolerant &#8211; say in the 18th century &#8211; it began to pass the House of Islam in terms of economic productivity and religious tolerance.  However, China, which was not particularly tolerant (or tolerant up to a point) was the dominant economic power during most of the period prior to 1900 and the period when it was most toelrant (under the Mongols) was one of its less prosperous periods.  </p>
<p>But the idea that market always manage alienation and difference peacefully seems to me to be completely ahistorical.  Becasue markets are always enmeshed in cultural assumptions, they are never value free.  A few violent market related episodes ranging from slavery (and the ensuing wars in Africa that supported it), the Dutch take over in Indonesia, the Pullman strike, the Lowell massacre etc. all suggest that markets can lead to violent outcomes as well as peaceful ones.  The World that Trade Created by Pomeranz and Topik is an extremely entertaining collection of essays that explore the intersection of markets and cultures with some interesting and surprising results.</p>
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		<title>By: Shawn Bailey</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/05/mormons-and-markets-iii-strangers-and-neighbors/#comment-76272</link>
		<dc:creator>Shawn Bailey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 May 2005 13:40:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2311#comment-76272</guid>
		<description>Lyle: while I don&#039;t have a single article as a source, I doubt that my insight is super original. I know there are law professors specializing in human rights who study the link between trade and human rights. (Consider, for example, U.S. attempts to use trade opportunities as an incentive to improve human rights practices---or in the case of China, trading despite profound differences with the hope that economic liberalization will lead to liberalization in general.) I will do a westlaw search on it next time I have a chance.

As far as religious human rights in particular are concerned, the idea occurred to me reading things such as Barzun&#039;s From Dawn to Decadence and Zagorin&#039;s How the Idea of Religious Toleration Came to the West, histories of western civilization and culture that (at least in part) portray a link between the development of religious freedom and the rise of capitalism (among many other things---I think religious conflicts are sort of the engine that drives western civilization).

To me, an interesting figure in this history is John Locke. Although his thought regarding toleration was not particularly original, he was a beneficiary and effective publicizer and defender of ideas formed that he inherited. His Letter Concerning Toleration is more prominent than the much more original writings of the levellers that he relied upon because he restated their arguments in terms of philosophical, instead of religious, discourse. Of course, Locke&#039;s ideas about property and limited government are important in the history of classical liberalism. If it hasn&#039;t been done, I wonder if a philosopher or intellectual historian couldn&#039;t write something exploring the relationship in Locke&#039;s thought between religious liberty and market liberalization.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lyle: while I don&#8217;t have a single article as a source, I doubt that my insight is super original. I know there are law professors specializing in human rights who study the link between trade and human rights. (Consider, for example, U.S. attempts to use trade opportunities as an incentive to improve human rights practices&#8212;or in the case of China, trading despite profound differences with the hope that economic liberalization will lead to liberalization in general.) I will do a westlaw search on it next time I have a chance.</p>
<p>As far as religious human rights in particular are concerned, the idea occurred to me reading things such as Barzun&#8217;s From Dawn to Decadence and Zagorin&#8217;s How the Idea of Religious Toleration Came to the West, histories of western civilization and culture that (at least in part) portray a link between the development of religious freedom and the rise of capitalism (among many other things&#8212;I think religious conflicts are sort of the engine that drives western civilization).</p>
<p>To me, an interesting figure in this history is John Locke. Although his thought regarding toleration was not particularly original, he was a beneficiary and effective publicizer and defender of ideas formed that he inherited. His Letter Concerning Toleration is more prominent than the much more original writings of the levellers that he relied upon because he restated their arguments in terms of philosophical, instead of religious, discourse. Of course, Locke&#8217;s ideas about property and limited government are important in the history of classical liberalism. If it hasn&#8217;t been done, I wonder if a philosopher or intellectual historian couldn&#8217;t write something exploring the relationship in Locke&#8217;s thought between religious liberty and market liberalization.</p>
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		<title>By: lyle</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/05/mormons-and-markets-iii-strangers-and-neighbors/#comment-76268</link>
		<dc:creator>lyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 May 2005 11:37:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2311#comment-76268</guid>
		<description>Shawn:  Wow.  Nice insight re: market/religious liberalization. Yours...or is there already a published article on it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shawn:  Wow.  Nice insight re: market/religious liberalization. Yours&#8230;or is there already a published article on it?</p>
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		<title>By: Daylan Darby</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/05/mormons-and-markets-iii-strangers-and-neighbors/#comment-76262</link>
		<dc:creator>Daylan Darby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 May 2005 03:27:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2311#comment-76262</guid>
		<description>&quot;In contrast, the market is a system that encourages us to treat others as strangers&quot;

To me, those words don&#039;t fit.  It ALMOST as saying a gun encourages us to kill people. (No I don&#039;t mean to start a pro/anti gun thread).   Perhaps I&#039;d state this as:

&quot;The market system allows us to interact peacefully with others&quot;.  

In fact I&#039;d go so far as to state that the market encourages us to be treat others with respect and fairness.  In a free (non government controlled) market those that don&#039;t &#039;play well with others&#039; are shunned/avoided and eventually either have to clean up their act or close shop.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;In contrast, the market is a system that encourages us to treat others as strangers&#8221;</p>
<p>To me, those words don&#8217;t fit.  It ALMOST as saying a gun encourages us to kill people. (No I don&#8217;t mean to start a pro/anti gun thread).   Perhaps I&#8217;d state this as:</p>
<p>&#8220;The market system allows us to interact peacefully with others&#8221;.  </p>
<p>In fact I&#8217;d go so far as to state that the market encourages us to be treat others with respect and fairness.  In a free (non government controlled) market those that don&#8217;t &#8216;play well with others&#8217; are shunned/avoided and eventually either have to clean up their act or close shop.</p>
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		<title>By: Shawn Bailey</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/05/mormons-and-markets-iii-strangers-and-neighbors/#comment-76237</link>
		<dc:creator>Shawn Bailey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2005 20:47:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2311#comment-76237</guid>
		<description>Shakespeare&#039;s Merchant of Venice provides an important literary exploration of how markets bring together &quot;strangers.&quot; In renaisance Venice (the play&#039;s setting), people of many nationalities, races, and religions did live and trade together---a unique set of circumstances that has obviously become a dominant pattern in recent history. Early on in the play, Shakespeare notes the difference between doing business and sitting down to eat together (Shylock&#039;s observance of dietary laws is a symbol of his unwillingness to compromise his beliefs or religious identity). The drama&#039;s larger conflict---and the way it goes unresolved in a satisfactory way---seems to indicate serious concern that perpetual conflicts will characterize the encounter between different peoples as long as minorities resist assimilation. Allen Bloom (I know, he&#039;s not the Bloom one usually reads on Shakespeare) has an essay on this in his Shakespeare&#039;s Politics, if you can find it.

To me an interesting question (both in terms of history and current international politics) is the link between religious tolerance/religious liberty and market economics. It seems likely that in the history of the western world, religious tolerance has been conducive to liberalization of market structures---and that liberalization of market structures has been conducive to religious tolerance. Thus, it may be good news when countries with poor religious freedom records abandon communism, sign regional trade agreements, or agree to reduce trade barriers in the WTO process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shakespeare&#8217;s Merchant of Venice provides an important literary exploration of how markets bring together &#8220;strangers.&#8221; In renaisance Venice (the play&#8217;s setting), people of many nationalities, races, and religions did live and trade together&#8212;a unique set of circumstances that has obviously become a dominant pattern in recent history. Early on in the play, Shakespeare notes the difference between doing business and sitting down to eat together (Shylock&#8217;s observance of dietary laws is a symbol of his unwillingness to compromise his beliefs or religious identity). The drama&#8217;s larger conflict&#8212;and the way it goes unresolved in a satisfactory way&#8212;seems to indicate serious concern that perpetual conflicts will characterize the encounter between different peoples as long as minorities resist assimilation. Allen Bloom (I know, he&#8217;s not the Bloom one usually reads on Shakespeare) has an essay on this in his Shakespeare&#8217;s Politics, if you can find it.</p>
<p>To me an interesting question (both in terms of history and current international politics) is the link between religious tolerance/religious liberty and market economics. It seems likely that in the history of the western world, religious tolerance has been conducive to liberalization of market structures&#8212;and that liberalization of market structures has been conducive to religious tolerance. Thus, it may be good news when countries with poor religious freedom records abandon communism, sign regional trade agreements, or agree to reduce trade barriers in the WTO process.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/05/mormons-and-markets-iii-strangers-and-neighbors/#comment-76231</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank McIntyre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2005 19:37:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2311#comment-76231</guid>
		<description>Internally, with ourselves, we don&#039;t need a market.  Within our imediate families we may be able to do without markets, but even then the concept of an allowance or seperate money can be an easy way to deal with differing financial priorities.  As the circle expands to include more people, the transaction costs and information problems grow pretty fast.  Gods who know everything and are perfectly trustworthy have no need of markets.  

But to do without markets and get a good allocation essentially requires us to know a great deal about every other person in the system.  We, in fact, need to know as much about them as they know about themselves.  And to do without binding contracts is similarly a pretty hard thing.

Presumably, to take the idea to a more extreme level, we could get by fine without spoken or written language too, if we all understood each other perfectly well or were telepaths.  But I don&#039;t see that happening either.  

But Nate is right that markets let us, if we desire, avoid certain costly investments in getting to know and trust each other, which investments can have eternal payoffs when successful.  But they do not require that we give up getting to know others.  They just allow us to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Internally, with ourselves, we don&#8217;t need a market.  Within our imediate families we may be able to do without markets, but even then the concept of an allowance or seperate money can be an easy way to deal with differing financial priorities.  As the circle expands to include more people, the transaction costs and information problems grow pretty fast.  Gods who know everything and are perfectly trustworthy have no need of markets.  </p>
<p>But to do without markets and get a good allocation essentially requires us to know a great deal about every other person in the system.  We, in fact, need to know as much about them as they know about themselves.  And to do without binding contracts is similarly a pretty hard thing.</p>
<p>Presumably, to take the idea to a more extreme level, we could get by fine without spoken or written language too, if we all understood each other perfectly well or were telepaths.  But I don&#8217;t see that happening either.  </p>
<p>But Nate is right that markets let us, if we desire, avoid certain costly investments in getting to know and trust each other, which investments can have eternal payoffs when successful.  But they do not require that we give up getting to know others.  They just allow us to.</p>
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		<title>By: lyle stamps</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/05/mormons-and-markets-iii-strangers-and-neighbors/#comment-76226</link>
		<dc:creator>lyle stamps</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2005 19:17:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2311#comment-76226</guid>
		<description>Nate:  If markets &quot;are least necessary where interaction is repeated, were relationships are multidimensional and direct, and where there are shared conceptions of the good,&quot; does that suggest that Zion has no need of markets; or just a lesser need?  A people of one heart and one mind would presumably have the qualities Coleman mentions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nate:  If markets &#8220;are least necessary where interaction is repeated, were relationships are multidimensional and direct, and where there are shared conceptions of the good,&#8221; does that suggest that Zion has no need of markets; or just a lesser need?  A people of one heart and one mind would presumably have the qualities Coleman mentions.</p>
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