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	<title>Comments on: Reminders to Frank about Teaching</title>
	<atom:link href="http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/teachers/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/teachers/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Frank McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/teachers/#comment-61650</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank McIntyre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:36:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2162#comment-61650</guid>
		<description>No, the challenge is definitely the snappy title.  The rest comes naturally.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, the challenge is definitely the snappy title.  The rest comes naturally.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim F.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/teachers/#comment-61637</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2005 04:46:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2162#comment-61637</guid>
		<description>Frank: &lt;i&gt;I&#039;ll try to make it [the post on econ] both boring and inaccessible&lt;/i&gt;

That shouldn&#039;t require any effort at all, given the topic. Now philosophy--we go for interesting and inaccessible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frank: <i>I&#8217;ll try to make it [the post on econ] both boring and inaccessible</i></p>
<p>That shouldn&#8217;t require any effort at all, given the topic. Now philosophy&#8211;we go for interesting and inaccessible.</p>
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		<title>By: HL Rogers</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/teachers/#comment-61615</link>
		<dc:creator>HL Rogers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:59:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2162#comment-61615</guid>
		<description>I second that emotion!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I second that emotion!</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Rogers</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/teachers/#comment-61582</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Rogers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2005 21:42:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2162#comment-61582</guid>
		<description>Man, that&#039;s rough.

I have to say that the trend in some wards to hold sacrament meetings last is very poorly thought out, to say the least.

By the time you get to sacrament meeting, the kids have been sitting for two hours already and are just wired. The noise level triples, half the parents are forced to leave with screaming kids, and the spirit just leaves the building.

For the love of everything holy ... Please hold your sacrament meetings first!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Man, that&#8217;s rough.</p>
<p>I have to say that the trend in some wards to hold sacrament meetings last is very poorly thought out, to say the least.</p>
<p>By the time you get to sacrament meeting, the kids have been sitting for two hours already and are just wired. The noise level triples, half the parents are forced to leave with screaming kids, and the spirit just leaves the building.</p>
<p>For the love of everything holy &#8230; Please hold your sacrament meetings first!</p>
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		<title>By: Frank McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/teachers/#comment-61527</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank McIntyre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:11:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2162#comment-61527</guid>
		<description>One of the things I miss from having priesthood first is not having Primary children wander into EQ at the end of the block, since EQ is normally in a place with low barriers to entry.  Relief Society classes typically have doors, but I bet they get it too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the things I miss from having priesthood first is not having Primary children wander into EQ at the end of the block, since EQ is normally in a place with low barriers to entry.  Relief Society classes typically have doors, but I bet they get it too.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Rogers</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/teachers/#comment-61516</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Rogers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:36:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2162#comment-61516</guid>
		<description>I think a major reason it&#039;s a good idea for EQ teachers to stay within the specified material is so they&#039;ll possibly get out on time.

EQ members are young and male. Meaning, they like to hear themselves talk. You get off on a tangent and they&#039;ll probably REALLY run with it. They&#039;ll keep beating the topic to death until their young primary aged children start hanging on the doors of the cultural hall.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a major reason it&#8217;s a good idea for EQ teachers to stay within the specified material is so they&#8217;ll possibly get out on time.</p>
<p>EQ members are young and male. Meaning, they like to hear themselves talk. You get off on a tangent and they&#8217;ll probably REALLY run with it. They&#8217;ll keep beating the topic to death until their young primary aged children start hanging on the doors of the cultural hall.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/teachers/#comment-61482</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank McIntyre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2162#comment-61482</guid>
		<description>Jonathan, No, that&#039;s Elder Oaks.  Econ post request noted.  I&#039;ll put something out in the next week or so.  I&#039;ll try to make it both boring and inaccessible, but with a clever title.  I think there can be certain kinds of applications used in class, Elder Oaks seems to be hammering the pharisaical tendency or the attempt to impose a one-size-fits-all regime for things &lt;i&gt;from the teacher&lt;/i&gt;.  The teacher, after all, is a guest representative of the Church.  Asking how individual class members apply principles in their lives, with care that we aren&#039;t trying to write rules for other people, might be quite helpful.

yddy42, You need some real vowels in your name.  Otherwise I feel like I&#039;m talking to somebody slamming their head on their keyboard.  But no, I think that one can do a lot in a lesson but still not list the dos and don&#039;ts of Sabbath worship. 

Derek,
I am not sure I agree.  One personalizes the message, but the message must be the same message.  Thus a missionary finds personalized ways to teach faith, but they must teach faith.  The teacher does the same.  And just as the missionary should always steer back to the scriptures, teachers are supposed to steer back to scriptures and the manual.  

ukann, the YW manual sounds like a loser (not that I know).  Maybe somebody should send a letter off to the curriculum department.   I would guess they already know it is time for a revision, but you never know.  EQ can probably get by on 20 year old materials, but YW?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan, No, that&#8217;s Elder Oaks.  Econ post request noted.  I&#8217;ll put something out in the next week or so.  I&#8217;ll try to make it both boring and inaccessible, but with a clever title.  I think there can be certain kinds of applications used in class, Elder Oaks seems to be hammering the pharisaical tendency or the attempt to impose a one-size-fits-all regime for things <i>from the teacher</i>.  The teacher, after all, is a guest representative of the Church.  Asking how individual class members apply principles in their lives, with care that we aren&#8217;t trying to write rules for other people, might be quite helpful.</p>
<p>yddy42, You need some real vowels in your name.  Otherwise I feel like I&#8217;m talking to somebody slamming their head on their keyboard.  But no, I think that one can do a lot in a lesson but still not list the dos and don&#8217;ts of Sabbath worship. </p>
<p>Derek,<br />
I am not sure I agree.  One personalizes the message, but the message must be the same message.  Thus a missionary finds personalized ways to teach faith, but they must teach faith.  The teacher does the same.  And just as the missionary should always steer back to the scriptures, teachers are supposed to steer back to scriptures and the manual.  </p>
<p>ukann, the YW manual sounds like a loser (not that I know).  Maybe somebody should send a letter off to the curriculum department.   I would guess they already know it is time for a revision, but you never know.  EQ can probably get by on 20 year old materials, but YW?</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Richins</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/teachers/#comment-61475</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Richins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:44:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2162#comment-61475</guid>
		<description>Actually, I believe the new focus of the missionary discussions is much more congruent with the intent of Elder Oaks&#039; talk (and the sources for the other quotes Frank provided) than has been in the past.  Preach My Gospel allows significantly more freedom than memorized discussions, but it also specifies very clearly that the missionaries need to know the lessons, the commitments, the doctrines, etc. very well in order to teach them.  They need to know the lessons by heart, not just memorized words, but the underlying principles. This constitutes proper preparation for either missionary, Priesthood or auxiliary instructors.  

&quot;First, seek to obtain my word, then shall your tongue be loosed...&quot;

As first-order sources for lesson materials, the manuals ARE terrible.  In the past, using the manuals in this way may have been the generally understood and accepted pattern.  However, I do not believe that this is the way it should be.  As second-order, supplemental resources, the manuals are adequate.  The new Presidents of the Church manuals are especially good for this purpose - I believe they are the best innovation in Church curriculum in a long tme.  Ultimately, whether we are teaching about the Godhead or hygiene, our first-order sources should be the scriptures.

The real purpose of the manuals should be to help the instructor prepare him or herself.  By providing a home-study option to help the instructor obtain the Word, to understand the principle to be taught, and hopefully even receive some personal insights and growth.  This should occur days, perhaps even weeks, before a lesson is scheduled to be given.  If an instructor has obtained the Word, s/he will be able to teach with the Spirit, by not looking down at the manual but by up at the class, and listening to their comments as well as to the promptings of the Holy Ghost.

Frank mentions that the teacher is a guest, which is the salient point to remember when teaching the Gospel.  No mortal man or woman should have the hubris to expect that s/he can unilaterally teach any Gospel principle in a way that will change hearts or inspire testimony.  That is the mission of the Holy Ghost, and man or woman should not seek to elevate him or herself to that level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, I believe the new focus of the missionary discussions is much more congruent with the intent of Elder Oaks&#8217; talk (and the sources for the other quotes Frank provided) than has been in the past.  Preach My Gospel allows significantly more freedom than memorized discussions, but it also specifies very clearly that the missionaries need to know the lessons, the commitments, the doctrines, etc. very well in order to teach them.  They need to know the lessons by heart, not just memorized words, but the underlying principles. This constitutes proper preparation for either missionary, Priesthood or auxiliary instructors.  </p>
<p>&#8220;First, seek to obtain my word, then shall your tongue be loosed&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>As first-order sources for lesson materials, the manuals ARE terrible.  In the past, using the manuals in this way may have been the generally understood and accepted pattern.  However, I do not believe that this is the way it should be.  As second-order, supplemental resources, the manuals are adequate.  The new Presidents of the Church manuals are especially good for this purpose &#8211; I believe they are the best innovation in Church curriculum in a long tme.  Ultimately, whether we are teaching about the Godhead or hygiene, our first-order sources should be the scriptures.</p>
<p>The real purpose of the manuals should be to help the instructor prepare him or herself.  By providing a home-study option to help the instructor obtain the Word, to understand the principle to be taught, and hopefully even receive some personal insights and growth.  This should occur days, perhaps even weeks, before a lesson is scheduled to be given.  If an instructor has obtained the Word, s/he will be able to teach with the Spirit, by not looking down at the manual but by up at the class, and listening to their comments as well as to the promptings of the Holy Ghost.</p>
<p>Frank mentions that the teacher is a guest, which is the salient point to remember when teaching the Gospel.  No mortal man or woman should have the hubris to expect that s/he can unilaterally teach any Gospel principle in a way that will change hearts or inspire testimony.  That is the mission of the Holy Ghost, and man or woman should not seek to elevate him or herself to that level.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Lundell</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/teachers/#comment-61459</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Lundell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:04:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2162#comment-61459</guid>
		<description>Ana, you could have a whole post on the problems with the YW manual.  At one time a few years ago my wife and I were both teaching the youth; she YW and me YM.  While I would be teaching on the nature of the godhead, she would be teaching about hygiene.  She was recently called back into the YW and we were reminded that many of the lessons are simply strange and whole topics often have very little relevance to most of the youth in Queens, NY.  

To be honest, I am not one who usually criticizes the Sunday School manuals.  I generally think the Gospel Doctrine manuals are organized well and include enough interesting material for most classes (EQ on the other hand, I think is much harder to teach).  When I taught GD, I followed the manual pretty closely, though I would often add my own personal touches.  

The YW manual, however, seems to be the exception to this rule.  No matter what year you are teaching, many of the lessons border on the bizzare.  Someone really needs to update those manuals.  Meanwhile, I think the teachers have no choice but to pick and choose among the available material and supplement where needed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ana, you could have a whole post on the problems with the YW manual.  At one time a few years ago my wife and I were both teaching the youth; she YW and me YM.  While I would be teaching on the nature of the godhead, she would be teaching about hygiene.  She was recently called back into the YW and we were reminded that many of the lessons are simply strange and whole topics often have very little relevance to most of the youth in Queens, NY.  </p>
<p>To be honest, I am not one who usually criticizes the Sunday School manuals.  I generally think the Gospel Doctrine manuals are organized well and include enough interesting material for most classes (EQ on the other hand, I think is much harder to teach).  When I taught GD, I followed the manual pretty closely, though I would often add my own personal touches.  </p>
<p>The YW manual, however, seems to be the exception to this rule.  No matter what year you are teaching, many of the lessons border on the bizzare.  Someone really needs to update those manuals.  Meanwhile, I think the teachers have no choice but to pick and choose among the available material and supplement where needed.</p>
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		<title>By: Derek</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/teachers/#comment-61435</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:30:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2162#comment-61435</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;A gospel teacher is not called to choose the subject of the lesson but to teach and discuss what has been specified.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

This statement appears to conflict with what they teach at the MTC, to &quot;personalize the message&quot; to your audience. But now I&#039;m talking about missionaries, not sunday school teachers, so maybe the two roles each have their own set of rules?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;A gospel teacher is not called to choose the subject of the lesson but to teach and discuss what has been specified.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>This statement appears to conflict with what they teach at the MTC, to &#8220;personalize the message&#8221; to your audience. But now I&#8217;m talking about missionaries, not sunday school teachers, so maybe the two roles each have their own set of rules?</p>
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