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	<title>Comments on: Is There Anywhere in the Church Where it is Safe to Discuss Doubts?</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/is-there-anywhere-in-the-church-where-it-is-safe-to-discuss-doubts/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/is-there-anywhere-in-the-church-where-it-is-safe-to-discuss-doubts/#comment-64359</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Apr 2005 00:25:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2190#comment-64359</guid>
		<description>I think that Anna has hit upon my concern about not having a safe place to openly and honestly discuss doubts -- the facade and atmosphere of dishonesty about what we really believe and feel when we are Church meeting contexts (and again I am open to the possibility that it is just me being judgmental and it is really my problem). There is a veneer, a polite facade to maintain peace and spirit. I am not saying that peace and spirit are not important, I am saying that honesty, openness and being genuine are equally important. I once simply answered a question that was asked of me in a priesthood meeting that called for me to honestly state that I accept evolution of homonids and it sent about 3 members into a frenzy of saving the Church from evil evolution. I simply refused to pretend not to believe what I do. Now I don&#039;t advocate evolution. I advocate maintaining a spirit of loving acceptance and respect in our discussions. It is my experience that the spirit of love withdraws in the context of being closed to our true beliefs and concerns.

For Stephanie, with whom I can relate totally, I have an observation about my own Church-going experience. I used to be bored out of my gourd in meetings. I believed that no one could really teach me what I didn&#039;t know or hadn&#039;t already heard 1,000 times. Did the Bishop really believe that the 14 year old would say something worth listening to? Then I had a change of heart. I decided to go in support and to give love rather than to be entertained or to be taught. I made a discovery. Everyone has something to teach me -- and sometimes it&#039;s lessons I don&#039;t want to learn. 

We had a young man about 16 who is somewhat mentally slow give a talk on prayer in sacrament meeting. He read a talk that he had written himself, and because he couldn&#039;t read well listening was tedious. But listen I did. I learned a great deal about prayer that day -- more than I had ever learned listening to GAs talk. I learned about simple faith and that simple speaking is powerful. I now go to Church meetings simply to be there for others. My experience has been transformed. The talks are not only better, they are fulfilling and edifying. I have learned more by listening to and watching the good saints in my ward than I knew was there. Church meetings are not about their entertainment value -- they are about sharing and supporting and learning together. Anyway -- for what it is worth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that Anna has hit upon my concern about not having a safe place to openly and honestly discuss doubts &#8212; the facade and atmosphere of dishonesty about what we really believe and feel when we are Church meeting contexts (and again I am open to the possibility that it is just me being judgmental and it is really my problem). There is a veneer, a polite facade to maintain peace and spirit. I am not saying that peace and spirit are not important, I am saying that honesty, openness and being genuine are equally important. I once simply answered a question that was asked of me in a priesthood meeting that called for me to honestly state that I accept evolution of homonids and it sent about 3 members into a frenzy of saving the Church from evil evolution. I simply refused to pretend not to believe what I do. Now I don&#8217;t advocate evolution. I advocate maintaining a spirit of loving acceptance and respect in our discussions. It is my experience that the spirit of love withdraws in the context of being closed to our true beliefs and concerns.</p>
<p>For Stephanie, with whom I can relate totally, I have an observation about my own Church-going experience. I used to be bored out of my gourd in meetings. I believed that no one could really teach me what I didn&#8217;t know or hadn&#8217;t already heard 1,000 times. Did the Bishop really believe that the 14 year old would say something worth listening to? Then I had a change of heart. I decided to go in support and to give love rather than to be entertained or to be taught. I made a discovery. Everyone has something to teach me &#8212; and sometimes it&#8217;s lessons I don&#8217;t want to learn. </p>
<p>We had a young man about 16 who is somewhat mentally slow give a talk on prayer in sacrament meeting. He read a talk that he had written himself, and because he couldn&#8217;t read well listening was tedious. But listen I did. I learned a great deal about prayer that day &#8212; more than I had ever learned listening to GAs talk. I learned about simple faith and that simple speaking is powerful. I now go to Church meetings simply to be there for others. My experience has been transformed. The talks are not only better, they are fulfilling and edifying. I have learned more by listening to and watching the good saints in my ward than I knew was there. Church meetings are not about their entertainment value &#8212; they are about sharing and supporting and learning together. Anyway &#8212; for what it is worth.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Green</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/is-there-anywhere-in-the-church-where-it-is-safe-to-discuss-doubts/#comment-64355</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Apr 2005 23:55:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2190#comment-64355</guid>
		<description>Stephanie: Sorry, I shouldn&#039;t have posted in haste. I was intending something more like Nate said, and how he said it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephanie: Sorry, I shouldn&#8217;t have posted in haste. I was intending something more like Nate said, and how he said it.</p>
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		<title>By: Anna</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/is-there-anywhere-in-the-church-where-it-is-safe-to-discuss-doubts/#comment-64347</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Apr 2005 21:52:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2190#comment-64347</guid>
		<description>There seems to be some consensus that bringing up specific difficult issues in church is problematic.  However, what I see as a deeper concern is that the general church atmosphere may make doubters deeply uncomfortable, possibly amplifying their doubts about the Church.  The assumption that everyone attending Church believes plunges the doubter into a mess of not-particularly-fun emotions:

Isolation: Everyone else seems to believe this, but I have some concerns.  They don&#039;t even seem aware of the potential problems.  No one understands me.

Fear: What would happen to me if I mentioned some of my issues?  People might not even be sympathetic; they might think I must be sinning, or point out that doubt is a tool of Satan.

Guilt: What&#039;s wrong with me that I can&#039;t believe this the way everyone else seems to?  How come they can know and I can&#039;t?  Maybe I just need to work harder.

Frustration:  I&#039;ve tried to work harder, and I don&#039;t seem to be getting anywhere.  How come it&#039;s always *my* fault?

Resentment/envy:  It doesn&#039;t seem fair that all these other people can know and I can&#039;t, with seemingly less effort and anguish.

Guilt part B:  I guess it&#039;s not good to feel frustrated, resentful, and envious about this.  And there&#039;s pride implicit in all those emotions as well.

Impostor complex:  Everyone thinks I know, but I actually don&#039;t.  I&#039;m a fraud.  Maybe, especially given all the other agonizing emotions church subjects me to, it would be more honest and less painful for me just not to come at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There seems to be some consensus that bringing up specific difficult issues in church is problematic.  However, what I see as a deeper concern is that the general church atmosphere may make doubters deeply uncomfortable, possibly amplifying their doubts about the Church.  The assumption that everyone attending Church believes plunges the doubter into a mess of not-particularly-fun emotions:</p>
<p>Isolation: Everyone else seems to believe this, but I have some concerns.  They don&#8217;t even seem aware of the potential problems.  No one understands me.</p>
<p>Fear: What would happen to me if I mentioned some of my issues?  People might not even be sympathetic; they might think I must be sinning, or point out that doubt is a tool of Satan.</p>
<p>Guilt: What&#8217;s wrong with me that I can&#8217;t believe this the way everyone else seems to?  How come they can know and I can&#8217;t?  Maybe I just need to work harder.</p>
<p>Frustration:  I&#8217;ve tried to work harder, and I don&#8217;t seem to be getting anywhere.  How come it&#8217;s always *my* fault?</p>
<p>Resentment/envy:  It doesn&#8217;t seem fair that all these other people can know and I can&#8217;t, with seemingly less effort and anguish.</p>
<p>Guilt part B:  I guess it&#8217;s not good to feel frustrated, resentful, and envious about this.  And there&#8217;s pride implicit in all those emotions as well.</p>
<p>Impostor complex:  Everyone thinks I know, but I actually don&#8217;t.  I&#8217;m a fraud.  Maybe, especially given all the other agonizing emotions church subjects me to, it would be more honest and less painful for me just not to come at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben H</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/is-there-anywhere-in-the-church-where-it-is-safe-to-discuss-doubts/#comment-64318</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Apr 2005 02:52:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2190#comment-64318</guid>
		<description>Stephanie, Thank you for going to church! We need you with us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephanie, Thank you for going to church! We need you with us.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephanie</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/is-there-anywhere-in-the-church-where-it-is-safe-to-discuss-doubts/#comment-64311</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephanie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Apr 2005 00:26:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2190#comment-64311</guid>
		<description>Thanks Lorin and Nate.  I do go to church most Sundays, work hard in my calling, and try not to be selfish, but sometimes going to church is a huge drag and incredibly frustrating. Sorry for whining. It&#039;s just as boring to listen to whiners as it is to listen to regurgitated Sunday School lessons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Lorin and Nate.  I do go to church most Sundays, work hard in my calling, and try not to be selfish, but sometimes going to church is a huge drag and incredibly frustrating. Sorry for whining. It&#8217;s just as boring to listen to whiners as it is to listen to regurgitated Sunday School lessons.</p>
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		<title>By: Lorin Hansen</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/is-there-anywhere-in-the-church-where-it-is-safe-to-discuss-doubts/#comment-64309</link>
		<dc:creator>Lorin Hansen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Apr 2005 00:08:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2190#comment-64309</guid>
		<description>Stephanie,

Nate expressed my feelings as well. By low expectations I was refering to the intellectual content of the lessons. I go to church, first for the sacramental covenant, second to hear and feel the message of sacrament meeting talks, third, to enjoy the association with the members, and finally for the contact concerning priesthood responsibilities. I tend not to go to SS, even though we usually have commendable teachers, because I either feel terribly frustrated if I don&#039;t speak about what I am thinking, or I speak and feel like I am disrupting the teacher. Either way I go away feeling upset. Fortunately, in our ward, we have spare rooms, so I attend a class that studies advanced topics, which usually has an attendance of one.

The good part of the story is that we live in a time when intellectually uplifting and inspiring materials are in great abundance. There isn&#039;t enough time to sample it all. There never has been a time when it was easier to interact with quality people who know so much. I am amazed by the people you can interact with by the Internet. So my philosophy is to take from and give to the Church all the good you can, and then participate in all the other activities and do all the other reading on your own, to the extent you have time. In that respect, it&#039;s a great time to be alive.

There is the negative side of the story, but don&#039;t forget the positive side.

Lorin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephanie,</p>
<p>Nate expressed my feelings as well. By low expectations I was refering to the intellectual content of the lessons. I go to church, first for the sacramental covenant, second to hear and feel the message of sacrament meeting talks, third, to enjoy the association with the members, and finally for the contact concerning priesthood responsibilities. I tend not to go to SS, even though we usually have commendable teachers, because I either feel terribly frustrated if I don&#8217;t speak about what I am thinking, or I speak and feel like I am disrupting the teacher. Either way I go away feeling upset. Fortunately, in our ward, we have spare rooms, so I attend a class that studies advanced topics, which usually has an attendance of one.</p>
<p>The good part of the story is that we live in a time when intellectually uplifting and inspiring materials are in great abundance. There isn&#8217;t enough time to sample it all. There never has been a time when it was easier to interact with quality people who know so much. I am amazed by the people you can interact with by the Internet. So my philosophy is to take from and give to the Church all the good you can, and then participate in all the other activities and do all the other reading on your own, to the extent you have time. In that respect, it&#8217;s a great time to be alive.</p>
<p>There is the negative side of the story, but don&#8217;t forget the positive side.</p>
<p>Lorin.</p>
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		<title>By: Chad Too</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/is-there-anywhere-in-the-church-where-it-is-safe-to-discuss-doubts/#comment-64307</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad Too</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Apr 2005 23:59:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2190#comment-64307</guid>
		<description>One of my favorite mission memories was Mission Conference one time where Elder Adney Komatsu of the Seventy was touring the mission.  I was the President&#039;s secretary at the time so the task of setting up most of the meeting (opening and closing prayers, special music, etc.) fell to me.  I was also assigned to prepare the printed program.  I asked President Matsumori for the details which he provided except to say that I should simply list the second half of the program as &quot;under the direction of Elder Adney Y. Komatsu,&quot; which I did.

Elder Komatsu didn&#039;t take the pulpit, but rather a handheld microphone.  He walked down to the floor to a chalkboard on wheels I&#039;d placed there at his request.  

This next part is his verbatim that will be forever burned into my memory:
&quot;Elders and Sisters, I know missionaries and I know that every one of you has told yourself, &#039;If I ever had the chance to ask a General Authority a question, it would be ________.&#039;  You have 90-minutes.  Go.&quot;

Once the stun wore off, we all leaped into action.  I don&#039;t think any seminary scripture chaser could have been faster in looking up verses than we were that day in the Kichijoji Ward Chapel.  He took all of our questions and didn&#039;t duck one of them.

I wish there were more opportunities for such things among the general membership.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of my favorite mission memories was Mission Conference one time where Elder Adney Komatsu of the Seventy was touring the mission.  I was the President&#8217;s secretary at the time so the task of setting up most of the meeting (opening and closing prayers, special music, etc.) fell to me.  I was also assigned to prepare the printed program.  I asked President Matsumori for the details which he provided except to say that I should simply list the second half of the program as &#8220;under the direction of Elder Adney Y. Komatsu,&#8221; which I did.</p>
<p>Elder Komatsu didn&#8217;t take the pulpit, but rather a handheld microphone.  He walked down to the floor to a chalkboard on wheels I&#8217;d placed there at his request.  </p>
<p>This next part is his verbatim that will be forever burned into my memory:<br />
&#8220;Elders and Sisters, I know missionaries and I know that every one of you has told yourself, &#8216;If I ever had the chance to ask a General Authority a question, it would be ________.&#8217;  You have 90-minutes.  Go.&#8221;</p>
<p>Once the stun wore off, we all leaped into action.  I don&#8217;t think any seminary scripture chaser could have been faster in looking up verses than we were that day in the Kichijoji Ward Chapel.  He took all of our questions and didn&#8217;t duck one of them.</p>
<p>I wish there were more opportunities for such things among the general membership.</p>
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		<title>By: maria</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/is-there-anywhere-in-the-church-where-it-is-safe-to-discuss-doubts/#comment-64304</link>
		<dc:creator>maria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Apr 2005 22:42:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2190#comment-64304</guid>
		<description>Re: Comment #51 Minerva

Maybe it depends on the ward.  But the past 3 wards I&#039;ve been in were all about the snooze in RS.  I&#039;ve thought maybe it had something to do with women knowing less/feeling like they know less about the scriptures/doctrine than the men, maybe because more men serve missions than women?  

I do remember my singles ward RSs were at least a little bit more engaging...as far as trying to apply teachings to personal lives, etc.  Of course, there were a lot more women that served missions in that setting than in my current uber-MoMo ward.

Has there ever been a thread (or thread-jack) about not encouraging women to serve missions as a form of keeping women uninformed about doctrine/policy/adminstration/etc.?  I mean, an argument can definitely be made that a faithful non-missionary woman could learn just as much as a missionary man through diligent personal study, but having 2 years devoted soley to study/ adminstration is kind of hard to beat.  What married mother of 3-4 children can spend 2.5 hours a day in personal study and 10 hours in formal doctrinal teaching situations?  Hmmm....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Comment #51 Minerva</p>
<p>Maybe it depends on the ward.  But the past 3 wards I&#8217;ve been in were all about the snooze in RS.  I&#8217;ve thought maybe it had something to do with women knowing less/feeling like they know less about the scriptures/doctrine than the men, maybe because more men serve missions than women?  </p>
<p>I do remember my singles ward RSs were at least a little bit more engaging&#8230;as far as trying to apply teachings to personal lives, etc.  Of course, there were a lot more women that served missions in that setting than in my current uber-MoMo ward.</p>
<p>Has there ever been a thread (or thread-jack) about not encouraging women to serve missions as a form of keeping women uninformed about doctrine/policy/adminstration/etc.?  I mean, an argument can definitely be made that a faithful non-missionary woman could learn just as much as a missionary man through diligent personal study, but having 2 years devoted soley to study/ adminstration is kind of hard to beat.  What married mother of 3-4 children can spend 2.5 hours a day in personal study and 10 hours in formal doctrinal teaching situations?  Hmmm&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Wade Englund</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/is-there-anywhere-in-the-church-where-it-is-safe-to-discuss-doubts/#comment-64302</link>
		<dc:creator>Wade Englund</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Apr 2005 21:32:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2190#comment-64302</guid>
		<description>One possible explanation as to why there is no formal forum at the Ward or Stake level to discuss doubts among members, is because of the high risk of such forums turning into gripe and whine sessions and places for gossip, back-biting, hyper-criticism, and so forth (not unlike what happens at online forums devoted to such ends). The benefits of it being a positive thing may be outweighed by the greater potential disbenefit of it being a negative thing.

Another possible explanation is the focus of the Church is rightly on growing in faith, rather than removing all doubts. And, that growth is often more a function of doing, rather than ruminating. In my own experience, whatever doubts have arisen to my mind, often are dispelled or become inconsequential when I am actively engaged in doing for others rather than just thinking about myself.

Just some thoughts.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One possible explanation as to why there is no formal forum at the Ward or Stake level to discuss doubts among members, is because of the high risk of such forums turning into gripe and whine sessions and places for gossip, back-biting, hyper-criticism, and so forth (not unlike what happens at online forums devoted to such ends). The benefits of it being a positive thing may be outweighed by the greater potential disbenefit of it being a negative thing.</p>
<p>Another possible explanation is the focus of the Church is rightly on growing in faith, rather than removing all doubts. And, that growth is often more a function of doing, rather than ruminating. In my own experience, whatever doubts have arisen to my mind, often are dispelled or become inconsequential when I am actively engaged in doing for others rather than just thinking about myself.</p>
<p>Just some thoughts.</p>
<p>Thanks, -Wade Englund-</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/is-there-anywhere-in-the-church-where-it-is-safe-to-discuss-doubts/#comment-64301</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Apr 2005 21:31:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2190#comment-64301</guid>
		<description>I actually use CJS and Am.Jur fairly frequently.  There are a large number of issues for which 15 minutes looking at actual law books -- with covers and pages and stuff -- is better than 30-45 min on Westlaw.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually use CJS and Am.Jur fairly frequently.  There are a large number of issues for which 15 minutes looking at actual law books &#8212; with covers and pages and stuff &#8212; is better than 30-45 min on Westlaw.</p>
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