Comments on: Zion or Bust http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/zion-or-bust/ Truth Will Prevail Wed, 23 May 2012 17:08:11 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Jim Richins http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/zion-or-bust/#comment-51239 Jim Richins Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:20:49 +0000 /?p=1960#comment-51239 Tyler: One of the most inspiring stories from Church History is when the members of the Anointed Quorum swore an oath to abstain from red plastic cups. Since it was still in the 1840s and red plastic cups had not been invented, they had to receive this commandment totally on faith. It amazes me how God saw the dangers that red plastic cups might pose to the saints, and provided instruction to keep His saints safe. Tyler:
One of the most inspiring stories from Church History is when the members of the Anointed Quorum swore an oath to abstain from red plastic cups. Since it was still in the 1840s and red plastic cups had not been invented, they had to receive this commandment totally on faith. It amazes me how God saw the dangers that red plastic cups might pose to the saints, and provided instruction to keep His saints safe.

]]> By: A. Greenwood http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/zion-or-bust/#comment-51177 A. Greenwood Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:34:34 +0000 /?p=1960#comment-51177 Sheri Lynn, Your right that we're often doing good and we don't know it. Missionaries plant seeds that others harvest. But mostly missionaries plant seeds that never germinate at all. Same with the other things we try to do. Thanks for the reminder, though. Sheri Lynn,
Your right that we’re often doing good and we don’t know it. Missionaries plant seeds that others harvest. But mostly missionaries plant seeds that never germinate at all. Same with the other things we try to do. Thanks for the reminder, though.

]]> By: Aaron L. M. Goodwin http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/zion-or-bust/#comment-51151 Aaron L. M. Goodwin Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:13:58 +0000 /?p=1960#comment-51151 As far as the "failure" of the goal of Zion's Camp, isn't there a way to reconcile this? We have examples of events similar to this. For instance, the israelites in the wildernes. Joshua never did anything wrong, but suffered a lot, and all of the people who started in the journey never made it, was this a failure of the lord? He told them 'I'm going to lead you to the promised land' (see <a href = "http://scriptures.lds.org/ex/12/25#25">Exodus 12:15,25</a>; <a href = "http://scriptures.lds.org/ex/13">Exodus 13:5,11</a>) but most of them, including Moses never made it there. I'm sure many of them thought "Great, here the lord tells us he's going to take us to the promised land, and now we wander for years on end and most of us die. I'll never get there!". If the purpose of Zion's Camp was to redeem Zion, then it's suceeding so far. How is Zion to be redeemed? Redeeming happens through making and keeping covenants, covenants are administered in the church, the church is lead by prophets, apostles, seventy etc. These were proven worthy in Zion's camp, and I suppose through these men's experiences they gained understanding and power which would aide zion in being redeemed. Does that make sense or am I nuts? As far as the “failure” of the goal of Zion’s Camp, isn’t there a way to reconcile this? We have examples of events similar to this. For instance, the israelites in the wildernes. Joshua never did anything wrong, but suffered a lot, and all of the people who started in the journey never made it, was this a failure of the lord? He told them ‘I’m going to lead you to the promised land’ (see Exodus 12:15,25; Exodus 13:5,11) but most of them, including Moses never made it there. I’m sure many of them thought “Great, here the lord tells us he’s going to take us to the promised land, and now we wander for years on end and most of us die. I’ll never get there!”.

If the purpose of Zion’s Camp was to redeem Zion, then it’s suceeding so far. How is Zion to be redeemed? Redeeming happens through making and keeping covenants, covenants are administered in the church, the church is lead by prophets, apostles, seventy etc. These were proven worthy in Zion’s camp, and I suppose through these men’s experiences they gained understanding and power which would aide zion in being redeemed. Does that make sense or am I nuts?

]]> By: tyler durden http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/zion-or-bust/#comment-51137 tyler durden Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:56:47 +0000 /?p=1960#comment-51137 i'm running off a couple hours of sleep, so i hop my posts are making sense "oh, except for the whole obedience/faith thing… oh, and the whole finding great treasures of knowledge, and avoiding the traps of evil and conspiring men…" an alert mind seems to me to be a direct reason as to why god wishes us to live the word of wisdom, as well as strenghtening our free-will by having us abstain from addictive things which are very much "traps of evila nd conspiring men" however, viewing the word of wisdom as just an "obedience/faith thing" is very troubling to me. is god such that he creates arbitrary laws just for the sake of obedience? why not create commandments to wear bowties between noon and 3pm on every third tuesday, spit on the grass everytime we hear a train, and abstain from red plastic cups? would these not be just as fulfilling as an "obedience/faith thing"? of course the first thing that comes contrary to my views is the whole "obedience/faith thing" for abraham to sacrifice his son. this however is a far more problematic concept that pales in comparison to the word of wisdom. so to pre-emptively respond to the abrahamic test response, all i can say i don't know. god doesn't ask that of me. i'm sure abraham understood it more than i do and saw more to it then a mere proof of his obedience. i’m running off a couple hours of sleep, so i hop my posts are making sense

“oh, except for the whole obedience/faith thing… oh, and the whole finding great treasures of knowledge, and avoiding the traps of evil and conspiring men…”

an alert mind seems to me to be a direct reason as to why god wishes us to live the word of wisdom, as well as strenghtening our free-will by having us abstain from addictive things which are very much “traps of evila nd conspiring men”

however, viewing the word of wisdom as just an “obedience/faith thing” is very troubling to me. is god such that he creates arbitrary laws just for the sake of obedience? why not create commandments to wear bowties between noon and 3pm on every third tuesday, spit on the grass everytime we hear a train, and abstain from red plastic cups? would these not be just as fulfilling as an “obedience/faith thing”?

of course the first thing that comes contrary to my views is the whole “obedience/faith thing” for abraham to sacrifice his son. this however is a far more problematic concept that pales in comparison to the word of wisdom. so to pre-emptively respond to the abrahamic test response, all i can say i don’t know. god doesn’t ask that of me. i’m sure abraham understood it more than i do and saw more to it then a mere proof of his obedience.

]]> By: Jim Richins http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/zion-or-bust/#comment-51106 Jim Richins Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:19:06 +0000 /?p=1960#comment-51106 Tyler: Sorry for not being clear. I did not mean to imply that the ultimate goal of hometeaching is improvement of one's self, only that there is a dual purpose. Indeed, one should not stop at only two - there is certainly a multiplicity of purposes served in pretty much everything the Lord commands us to do. Furthermore, many purposes can only be fulfilled when we step outside of ourselves and think of serving others. I do not see multiple purposes underlying God's commandments as being the least bit deceptive. Having my children do chores such as mowing the lawn fulfills purposes far beyond getting the grass clipped. Yet, I don't tell them to "go out and develop some character." (Actually, I might say that, but the younger kids would probably not get it, and I'd have to clarify by saying "go out and mow the lawn... and try to mow a straight line this time!) Suppose the mower is out of gas, and that I knew before hand (or maybe it slipped my mind) that it wouldn't go much farther than starting up, yet I asked them to do it anyway. Was I being deceptive, or could I have been giving him a problem to wrestle with and try to form a solution? And, yes, other than the social scourges of alcoholism, drug addiction, associated health problems, including lung cancer, there really isn't much reason to obey what we now call the Word of Wisdom... oh, except for the whole obedience/faith thing... oh, and the whole finding great treasures of knowledge, and avoiding the traps of evil and conspiring men... but seriously, having the destroying angel pass us by isn't such a big deal... Tyler:
Sorry for not being clear. I did not mean to imply that the ultimate goal of hometeaching is improvement of one’s self, only that there is a dual purpose. Indeed, one should not stop at only two – there is certainly a multiplicity of purposes served in pretty much everything the Lord commands us to do. Furthermore, many purposes can only be fulfilled when we step outside of ourselves and think of serving others.

I do not see multiple purposes underlying God’s commandments as being the least bit deceptive. Having my children do chores such as mowing the lawn fulfills purposes far beyond getting the grass clipped. Yet, I don’t tell them to “go out and develop some character.”

(Actually, I might say that, but the younger kids would probably not get it, and I’d have to clarify by saying “go out and mow the lawn… and try to mow a straight line this time!)

Suppose the mower is out of gas, and that I knew before hand (or maybe it slipped my mind) that it wouldn’t go much farther than starting up, yet I asked them to do it anyway. Was I being deceptive, or could I have been giving him a problem to wrestle with and try to form a solution?

And, yes, other than the social scourges of alcoholism, drug addiction, associated health problems, including lung cancer, there really isn’t much reason to obey what we now call the Word of Wisdom… oh, except for the whole obedience/faith thing… oh, and the whole finding great treasures of knowledge, and avoiding the traps of evil and conspiring men… but seriously, having the destroying angel pass us by isn’t such a big deal…

]]> By: Sheri Lynn http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/zion-or-bust/#comment-51101 Sheri Lynn Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:09:52 +0000 /?p=1960#comment-51101 " I regret that it mostly goes unfulfilled, no matter how hard one tries." We wore out about 8 sets of missionaries before it "took" with my husband and I. I'm sure the first seven sets thought they failed. But each left us with SOMETHING that kept us investigating the same church over and over....the credit for the baptisms goes to all of them. Though the set that gave me a blessing and did NOT tell me I might feel something odd happening, and that that something is the Holy Ghost, probably will slap themselves on the head, because they might have been the ones if they'd thought to tell me something so elementary (to them) but alien (to an atheist.) It sure takes a lot of falls on the butt before a baby learns to walk. These are not failures. They're course corrections. ” I regret that it mostly goes unfulfilled, no matter how hard one tries.”

We wore out about 8 sets of missionaries before it “took” with my husband and I. I’m sure the first seven sets thought they failed. But each left us with SOMETHING that kept us investigating the same church over and over….the credit for the baptisms goes to all of them.

Though the set that gave me a blessing and did NOT tell me I might feel something odd happening, and that that something is the Holy Ghost, probably will slap themselves on the head, because they might have been the ones if they’d thought to tell me something so elementary (to them) but alien (to an atheist.)

It sure takes a lot of falls on the butt before a baby learns to walk. These are not failures. They’re course corrections.

]]> By: J. Stapley http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/zion-or-bust/#comment-51100 J. Stapley Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:08:17 +0000 /?p=1960#comment-51100 tyler: <i>the word of wisdom is kept to receive a temple reccomend, not to keep out bodies healthy.</i> Not to get off on a tangent, but Temple Worthiness is pretty much the only reson to follow the proscriptions we call the Word of Wisdom. If you are talking about section 89, well, we don't follow that at all. But I agree with you on the other examples. tyler: the word of wisdom is kept to receive a temple reccomend, not to keep out bodies healthy.

Not to get off on a tangent, but Temple Worthiness is pretty much the only reson to follow the proscriptions we call the Word of Wisdom. If you are talking about section 89, well, we don’t follow that at all.

But I agree with you on the other examples.

]]> By: J. Stapley http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/zion-or-bust/#comment-51097 J. Stapley Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:56:12 +0000 /?p=1960#comment-51097 Great post Adam. I look at Peter's trying and subsequent failure as one of the most important experiances of the New Testament. Peter (and those in Zion's camp) asked to do something spectacular. He had the faith to try and great miracles resulted. It would have been much easier to swim. I'm one who would rather not try and swim because I know the limit of my faith. Great post Adam. I look at Peter’s trying and subsequent failure as one of the most important experiances of the New Testament. Peter (and those in Zion’s camp) asked to do something spectacular. He had the faith to try and great miracles resulted. It would have been much easier to swim. I’m one who would rather not try and swim because I know the limit of my faith.

]]> By: Matt Astle http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/zion-or-bust/#comment-51096 Matt Astle Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:42:31 +0000 /?p=1960#comment-51096 Another success of Zion's Camp: Family tradition holds that my great-great-great-great grandfather was living near the area where Zion's Camp waited out the storm on the Fishing River. The next morning, he met Joseph Smith and was soon baptized. The part of the family legend I'm not so sure about is my ancestor's claim to be the first person baptized in the state of Missouri. Be that as it may, Zion's Camp had a prominent role in bringing my family (and therefore me) into the gospel. Success! Another success of Zion’s Camp: Family tradition holds that my great-great-great-great grandfather was living near the area where Zion’s Camp waited out the storm on the Fishing River. The next morning, he met Joseph Smith and was soon baptized. The part of the family legend I’m not so sure about is my ancestor’s claim to be the first person baptized in the state of Missouri. Be that as it may, Zion’s Camp had a prominent role in bringing my family (and therefore me) into the gospel. Success!

]]> By: watkinator http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/zion-or-bust/#comment-51078 watkinator Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:18:15 +0000 /?p=1960#comment-51078 This was a great article to inspire thinking. And I admire anyone who can approach such a sensitve subject. I think the moral of the story that you drew out was appropriate too. However, I also agree with Tyler that on the surface the reason the Lord gave for sending Zion's Camp is problematic, for us anyway. Sure the Lord probably couldn't say "Go pretend to redeem Zion but really I'm testing all of your moral characters". Why did he say to go and redeem Zion? I don't know and I'm not satisfied with any of the answers offered as yet. For me, this issue becomes one of true faith. It's not blind because the Lord has proved himself in too many instances for trusting in him to ever be truly blind. But it's not attested faith either because I have no witness from the Spirit as to the Lord's true meaning and purposes in giving that commandment. I call this real faith because without the confirmation of the Spirit as to why the Lord said what he said I have to believe (if I believe at all, which I do) based on the Lord's track record. Which oddly has me ending up where Adam did. It's a test and we have to prove our faith and real trust in the Lord. Great article. It really made me think. This was a great article to inspire thinking. And I admire anyone who can approach such a sensitve subject. I think the moral of the story that you drew out was appropriate too. However, I also agree with Tyler that on the surface the reason the Lord gave for sending Zion’s Camp is problematic, for us anyway. Sure the Lord probably couldn’t say “Go pretend to redeem Zion but really I’m testing all of your moral characters”. Why did he say to go and redeem Zion? I don’t know and I’m not satisfied with any of the answers offered as yet. For me, this issue becomes one of true faith. It’s not blind because the Lord has proved himself in too many instances for trusting in him to ever be truly blind. But it’s not attested faith either because I have no witness from the Spirit as to the Lord’s true meaning and purposes in giving that commandment. I call this real faith because without the confirmation of the Spirit as to why the Lord said what he said I have to believe (if I believe at all, which I do) based on the Lord’s track record. Which oddly has me ending up where Adam did. It’s a test and we have to prove our faith and real trust in the Lord. Great article. It really made me think.

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