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	<title>Comments on: Remember the Pain</title>
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	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: annegb</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/remember-the-pain/#comment-48779</link>
		<dc:creator>annegb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Feb 2005 00:06:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1928#comment-48779</guid>
		<description>Hmmm...an old movie backwards.  I&#039;ve tried by force of will to relive my life.  Now I&#039;ve been picturing my son as a tall and strong and happy young man in a white shirt, confidence radiating from his face, and love for others evident in his outlook.  I had a dream that he was working with members in Africa, he was always sort of like that, I did something good, he spent three summers from age 11 to 13 volunteering with special ed kids.  He was pretty great.  So now I picture him what he&#039;d be like if I&#039;d done things different.

Lately I&#039;ve felt him near me, loving and strong.  That&#039;s painful, I can&#039;t describe it, it should be comforting, but I feel so sad about it.  BUT I&#039;m letting him in.  I think he&#039;s as he would have been.

This is cathartic, please just disregard me.  I&#039;m still a powerful, strong and funny woman.  In terrible anguish.   LOL   Don&#039;t anybody get sad now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm&#8230;an old movie backwards.  I&#8217;ve tried by force of will to relive my life.  Now I&#8217;ve been picturing my son as a tall and strong and happy young man in a white shirt, confidence radiating from his face, and love for others evident in his outlook.  I had a dream that he was working with members in Africa, he was always sort of like that, I did something good, he spent three summers from age 11 to 13 volunteering with special ed kids.  He was pretty great.  So now I picture him what he&#8217;d be like if I&#8217;d done things different.</p>
<p>Lately I&#8217;ve felt him near me, loving and strong.  That&#8217;s painful, I can&#8217;t describe it, it should be comforting, but I feel so sad about it.  BUT I&#8217;m letting him in.  I think he&#8217;s as he would have been.</p>
<p>This is cathartic, please just disregard me.  I&#8217;m still a powerful, strong and funny woman.  In terrible anguish.   LOL   Don&#8217;t anybody get sad now.</p>
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		<title>By: David King Landrith</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/remember-the-pain/#comment-48758</link>
		<dc:creator>David King Landrith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Feb 2005 19:49:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1928#comment-48758</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I think that you&#039;re right, annegb. Peace comes from having faith that Christ&#039;s atonement is real, that we can be forgiven. And lasting peace comes from repenting and obtaining forgiveness. But part of repenting is &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; remembering our sins and our pain--not in the sense that we literally forget, but in the sense that we let them go and they become lost to us. If this weren&#039;t so, then repenting would not make us whole. In Alma&#039;s case, guilt held him captive until it performed its function; it drove him to Christ and to repentance. Christ&#039;s atonement gave Alma the promise of forgiveness, and this allowed Alma to repent, to be made whole, and to be set free.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Guilt and the pain that accompanies it are natural and serve a definite purpose, but many people dredge up feelings of guilt long after they have made amends and received forgiveness. Satan wants us to fall into this trap, because it tricks us into putting aside the efficacy of Christ&#039;s atonement. The more Satan can get us to wallow in our guilt, the happier he is; it&#039;s his way of making us feel special.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m reminded of a passage from &lt;em&gt;Slaughterhouse-Five&lt;/em&gt; where Vonnegut describes an old war movie backwards: People and planes that are riddled with shrapnel are miraculously healed and repaired by other planes that use long, narrow tubes to suck the bullets out of them. Below the airplanes a city is being ravaged by fire, and some of the healed planes open their doors and exert magnetic forces that collapse the fire into small steel cylinders and then suck the cylinders up into the planes where they are stacked neatly on racks and flown to America. If the atonement is real, then it has an effect on our sinful state very much like the miraculous bullet sucking tubes and the powerful magnetic forces of the airplanes--except I don&#039;t think that our sins end up stacked neatly on racks and delivered to America.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that you&#8217;re right, annegb. Peace comes from having faith that Christ&#8217;s atonement is real, that we can be forgiven. And lasting peace comes from repenting and obtaining forgiveness. But part of repenting is <em>not</em> remembering our sins and our pain&#8211;not in the sense that we literally forget, but in the sense that we let them go and they become lost to us. If this weren&#8217;t so, then repenting would not make us whole. In Alma&#8217;s case, guilt held him captive until it performed its function; it drove him to Christ and to repentance. Christ&#8217;s atonement gave Alma the promise of forgiveness, and this allowed Alma to repent, to be made whole, and to be set free.</p>
<p>Guilt and the pain that accompanies it are natural and serve a definite purpose, but many people dredge up feelings of guilt long after they have made amends and received forgiveness. Satan wants us to fall into this trap, because it tricks us into putting aside the efficacy of Christ&#8217;s atonement. The more Satan can get us to wallow in our guilt, the happier he is; it&#8217;s his way of making us feel special.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m reminded of a passage from <em>Slaughterhouse-Five</em> where Vonnegut describes an old war movie backwards: People and planes that are riddled with shrapnel are miraculously healed and repaired by other planes that use long, narrow tubes to suck the bullets out of them. Below the airplanes a city is being ravaged by fire, and some of the healed planes open their doors and exert magnetic forces that collapse the fire into small steel cylinders and then suck the cylinders up into the planes where they are stacked neatly on racks and flown to America. If the atonement is real, then it has an effect on our sinful state very much like the miraculous bullet sucking tubes and the powerful magnetic forces of the airplanes&#8211;except I don&#8217;t think that our sins end up stacked neatly on racks and delivered to America.</p>
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		<title>By: annegb</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/remember-the-pain/#comment-48685</link>
		<dc:creator>annegb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Feb 2005 15:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1928#comment-48685</guid>
		<description>And you know, see if you can follow me here, but if it&#039;s like it didn&#039;t happen, then it didn&#039;t happen.  Like, my son somewhere is not sad, but happy and confident.  The things that happened do not count.  That is my hope.  Sort of scary.

So if I repent, then the consequences of my SIN are negated, wiped out.  Think about that one for awhile.  It&#039;s like this world doesn&#039;t even really exist.

which goes with my personal philosophy that we are all having a virtual reality experience and in your world, you are the screwed up one and I am the serene wonderful one.  Eat your heart out.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And you know, see if you can follow me here, but if it&#8217;s like it didn&#8217;t happen, then it didn&#8217;t happen.  Like, my son somewhere is not sad, but happy and confident.  The things that happened do not count.  That is my hope.  Sort of scary.</p>
<p>So if I repent, then the consequences of my SIN are negated, wiped out.  Think about that one for awhile.  It&#8217;s like this world doesn&#8217;t even really exist.</p>
<p>which goes with my personal philosophy that we are all having a virtual reality experience and in your world, you are the screwed up one and I am the serene wonderful one.  Eat your heart out.  :)</p>
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		<title>By: Katie</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/remember-the-pain/#comment-48673</link>
		<dc:creator>Katie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Feb 2005 15:17:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1928#comment-48673</guid>
		<description>Danithew: “I can’t really think of any scripture that teaches a person should forget anything.” 

While this is probably true, the Lord does make the statement that when He forgives He forgets. I think He’s being literal here. More than just not thinking about our sins or not being harrowed up by them anymore, I think in some mystical way they are wiped from the mind of God. And aren’t we commanded to be as Christ-like as humanly possible? Granted, Christ is forgetting the sins of others, not his own, which is a crucial difference. Still its seems odd to me that the things that we go around remembering and occasionally shuddering at, Christ hasn’t the foggiest idea of. A strange eternal disconnect. I think the ideal would be that we would almost completely forget about our past transgressions. If repentance is truly a change of heart in which the heart no longer desires to sin, then shouldn’t that new heart be adequate protection in keeping us from committing the same mistake? Of course this is all hypothetical, I can’t say I’ve yet forgotten my repented of sins. But I think it is worth pondering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Danithew: “I can’t really think of any scripture that teaches a person should forget anything.” </p>
<p>While this is probably true, the Lord does make the statement that when He forgives He forgets. I think He’s being literal here. More than just not thinking about our sins or not being harrowed up by them anymore, I think in some mystical way they are wiped from the mind of God. And aren’t we commanded to be as Christ-like as humanly possible? Granted, Christ is forgetting the sins of others, not his own, which is a crucial difference. Still its seems odd to me that the things that we go around remembering and occasionally shuddering at, Christ hasn’t the foggiest idea of. A strange eternal disconnect. I think the ideal would be that we would almost completely forget about our past transgressions. If repentance is truly a change of heart in which the heart no longer desires to sin, then shouldn’t that new heart be adequate protection in keeping us from committing the same mistake? Of course this is all hypothetical, I can’t say I’ve yet forgotten my repented of sins. But I think it is worth pondering.</p>
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		<title>By: annegb</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/remember-the-pain/#comment-48650</link>
		<dc:creator>annegb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Feb 2005 14:47:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1928#comment-48650</guid>
		<description>Truman Madsen spoke at a special interest (now I think it&#039;s singles) conference I attended years ago, on his book The Highest in Us.  He really blew us away because he made the suggestion that perhaps at one time God had been in special interest.  It was kind of sad how that huge group of mostly divorced people clung to that with such hope in their eyes.

I think as a people, Mormons are very hard on themselves.  We preach works to the exclusion of grace and perpetuate the false doctrine that we can do it ourselves.

I think the peace that comes can only come from the knowledge that Christ did the hard part for us.  All we have to do is let him.  How many Mormons are out there, living lives of quiet desperation, trying to work out their own salvation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Truman Madsen spoke at a special interest (now I think it&#8217;s singles) conference I attended years ago, on his book The Highest in Us.  He really blew us away because he made the suggestion that perhaps at one time God had been in special interest.  It was kind of sad how that huge group of mostly divorced people clung to that with such hope in their eyes.</p>
<p>I think as a people, Mormons are very hard on themselves.  We preach works to the exclusion of grace and perpetuate the false doctrine that we can do it ourselves.</p>
<p>I think the peace that comes can only come from the knowledge that Christ did the hard part for us.  All we have to do is let him.  How many Mormons are out there, living lives of quiet desperation, trying to work out their own salvation?</p>
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		<title>By: Rosalynde Welch</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/remember-the-pain/#comment-48632</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosalynde Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Feb 2005 13:53:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1928#comment-48632</guid>
		<description>So... sort of a fundamental state of integrity? (This has always seemed to me Terry Warner&#039;s great message.) Where our actions, thoughts and feelings are integrated with what we know to be right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So&#8230; sort of a fundamental state of integrity? (This has always seemed to me Terry Warner&#8217;s great message.) Where our actions, thoughts and feelings are integrated with what we know to be right?</p>
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		<title>By: Godot</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/remember-the-pain/#comment-48618</link>
		<dc:creator>Godot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Feb 2005 08:26:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1928#comment-48618</guid>
		<description>It is appropriate that The Peacegiver was mentioned, for all of my thoughts are grounded in Terry Warner&#039;s &quot;agentivism.&quot; Rather, all my good ideas I attribute to him and all my bad ones to myself. 

I think we see a correlation between happiness and righteousness on the one hand, and wickedness and unhappiness on the other. Of course, when I say &quot;happiness&quot; and &quot;unhappiness&quot;, I mean on the most fundamental level. But I think we commit a fallacy in assuming that correlation means causation. 

It is not so much that choosing the right brings peace, but that a third thing brings both of them. This third thing is a state of being. It is a state wherein we know that our will is in line with God&#039;s will (or in cases where we don&#039;t yet fully comprehend God&#039;s will, we know that our will is in line with what we know deep down to be right). There are a number of names for this state of being: &quot;a heart that&#039;s in the right place&quot; is a simple one, being &quot;out of the box&quot; is one that Arbinger uses, &quot;a moral conscience&quot; is probably an ambiguous one. 

It is, of course, not a fully black and white thing. There are different degrees to which we are in this state, but the more we are in this state, the more we will make righteous choices and the more we will be at peace. 

This, I believe, is how it is possible for Alma to be filled with joy even though he had not yet committed any good deeds. He changed his state of being - and from that he was filled with peace and made righteous choices. 

Circling back around to the original post, remembering our sins becomes important because, in many ways, it contributes to our current state of being. We are more humbler for it. And thus, we are happier for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is appropriate that The Peacegiver was mentioned, for all of my thoughts are grounded in Terry Warner&#8217;s &#8220;agentivism.&#8221; Rather, all my good ideas I attribute to him and all my bad ones to myself. </p>
<p>I think we see a correlation between happiness and righteousness on the one hand, and wickedness and unhappiness on the other. Of course, when I say &#8220;happiness&#8221; and &#8220;unhappiness&#8221;, I mean on the most fundamental level. But I think we commit a fallacy in assuming that correlation means causation. </p>
<p>It is not so much that choosing the right brings peace, but that a third thing brings both of them. This third thing is a state of being. It is a state wherein we know that our will is in line with God&#8217;s will (or in cases where we don&#8217;t yet fully comprehend God&#8217;s will, we know that our will is in line with what we know deep down to be right). There are a number of names for this state of being: &#8220;a heart that&#8217;s in the right place&#8221; is a simple one, being &#8220;out of the box&#8221; is one that Arbinger uses, &#8220;a moral conscience&#8221; is probably an ambiguous one. </p>
<p>It is, of course, not a fully black and white thing. There are different degrees to which we are in this state, but the more we are in this state, the more we will make righteous choices and the more we will be at peace. </p>
<p>This, I believe, is how it is possible for Alma to be filled with joy even though he had not yet committed any good deeds. He changed his state of being &#8211; and from that he was filled with peace and made righteous choices. </p>
<p>Circling back around to the original post, remembering our sins becomes important because, in many ways, it contributes to our current state of being. We are more humbler for it. And thus, we are happier for it.</p>
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		<title>By: Sheri Lynn</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/remember-the-pain/#comment-48611</link>
		<dc:creator>Sheri Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Feb 2005 05:22:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1928#comment-48611</guid>
		<description>Well, it has been 7 years since my last baby...but the pilonital cyst episode was 24 years ago!  (Of course I was 15 and extremely mortified by the whole thing, which probably made it even worse than it was.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, it has been 7 years since my last baby&#8230;but the pilonital cyst episode was 24 years ago!  (Of course I was 15 and extremely mortified by the whole thing, which probably made it even worse than it was.)</p>
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		<title>By: Mark B.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/remember-the-pain/#comment-48605</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Feb 2005 04:47:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1928#comment-48605</guid>
		<description>Thanks to William Morris for the link to the pictures of harrows.  As we move from the farm to the city, we lose the immediacy of the images in the scriptures, which are so closely tied to the land.

I remember Truman Madsen speaking of &quot;remembering with peace&quot; as coming with repentance.  That is consistent with Alma&#039;s clear recollection of his sins several decades later (when he was talking to Helaman in ch. 36) but without the harrowing.

Analogous is the Lord&#039;s statement in D&amp;C 58, where he says that &quot;I the Lord remember them no more.&quot;  How can God, whose memory is perfect, forget?

In that case, I think we need to look to the passages where God speaks of &quot;remembering sins against&quot; the unrepentant.  That, I believe, is the no more remembering that the passage in Sec. 58 refers to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks to William Morris for the link to the pictures of harrows.  As we move from the farm to the city, we lose the immediacy of the images in the scriptures, which are so closely tied to the land.</p>
<p>I remember Truman Madsen speaking of &#8220;remembering with peace&#8221; as coming with repentance.  That is consistent with Alma&#8217;s clear recollection of his sins several decades later (when he was talking to Helaman in ch. 36) but without the harrowing.</p>
<p>Analogous is the Lord&#8217;s statement in D&#038;C 58, where he says that &#8220;I the Lord remember them no more.&#8221;  How can God, whose memory is perfect, forget?</p>
<p>In that case, I think we need to look to the passages where God speaks of &#8220;remembering sins against&#8221; the unrepentant.  That, I believe, is the no more remembering that the passage in Sec. 58 refers to.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosalynde Welch</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/remember-the-pain/#comment-48597</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosalynde Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Feb 2005 02:56:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1928#comment-48597</guid>
		<description>Hmmm, Sheri... how long since you had your last baby? At seventeen months and counting, the memory&#039;s still pretty darn fresh for me! :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm, Sheri&#8230; how long since you had your last baby? At seventeen months and counting, the memory&#8217;s still pretty darn fresh for me! :)</p>
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