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	<title>Comments on: Should We Prefer Avarice to Piety in CEOs?</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/christian-ceos-in-hot-water/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/christian-ceos-in-hot-water/#comment-50537</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1952#comment-50537</guid>
		<description>Yes, I&#039;m an attorney myself and know all about the discretion built into the business judgment rule.  All I meant to say was that the CEO must have at least a colorable argument that the action he took was in his reasonable judgment good for the company.  For example, the CEO can (and in my view should) make even large public contributions to charitable causes because they arguably benefit the company&#039;s public image.  However, if a CEO were to anonymously donate $10 million of the company&#039;s profits to charity, I think he or she would be in hot water.  The example of refusing to shut down an unprofitable factory to save the workers&#039; jobs is a tougher case, but if the factory loses loads of money every year for ten straight years, and there is no prospect for improvement, and yet the CEO still refuses to shut it down because he doesn&#039;t want to put anyone out of work, it may even fall outside the BJR.  (that&#039;s what derivative suits are for)

I guess what I&#039;m saying is that while there is no duty, as such, to maximize shareholder value in every circumstance, I believe there is and ought to be an obligation for the CEO not to make decisions based on his own interests (or moral views) while ignoring and acting contrary to the interests of the shareholders.  In fact, this actually sounds more like a duty of loyalty issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I&#8217;m an attorney myself and know all about the discretion built into the business judgment rule.  All I meant to say was that the CEO must have at least a colorable argument that the action he took was in his reasonable judgment good for the company.  For example, the CEO can (and in my view should) make even large public contributions to charitable causes because they arguably benefit the company&#8217;s public image.  However, if a CEO were to anonymously donate $10 million of the company&#8217;s profits to charity, I think he or she would be in hot water.  The example of refusing to shut down an unprofitable factory to save the workers&#8217; jobs is a tougher case, but if the factory loses loads of money every year for ten straight years, and there is no prospect for improvement, and yet the CEO still refuses to shut it down because he doesn&#8217;t want to put anyone out of work, it may even fall outside the BJR.  (that&#8217;s what derivative suits are for)</p>
<p>I guess what I&#8217;m saying is that while there is no duty, as such, to maximize shareholder value in every circumstance, I believe there is and ought to be an obligation for the CEO not to make decisions based on his own interests (or moral views) while ignoring and acting contrary to the interests of the shareholders.  In fact, this actually sounds more like a duty of loyalty issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/christian-ceos-in-hot-water/#comment-50524</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:45:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1952#comment-50524</guid>
		<description>Brian: For what it is worth the fiduciary duty for CEOs and other corporate officers consists mainly in the obligation to avoid stealing, conflicts of interest, and gross incompetence.  There is precatory language in the case law about the best interests of the shareholders, but in actual legal practice this does not amount to a legally enforceable duty to maximize shareholder value.  At least that is the position that -- for arcane reasons related to the philosophy of contract law -- I find myself arguing for in an article that I am currently working on, so I am sticking to it.

Gordon is the real expert in this area, but I think that he would agree that a CEO giving money to charity or refusing to shut down an unprofitable plant in order to save the workers is not tortious or illegal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian: For what it is worth the fiduciary duty for CEOs and other corporate officers consists mainly in the obligation to avoid stealing, conflicts of interest, and gross incompetence.  There is precatory language in the case law about the best interests of the shareholders, but in actual legal practice this does not amount to a legally enforceable duty to maximize shareholder value.  At least that is the position that &#8212; for arcane reasons related to the philosophy of contract law &#8212; I find myself arguing for in an article that I am currently working on, so I am sticking to it.</p>
<p>Gordon is the real expert in this area, but I think that he would agree that a CEO giving money to charity or refusing to shut down an unprofitable plant in order to save the workers is not tortious or illegal.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/christian-ceos-in-hot-water/#comment-50522</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:38:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1952#comment-50522</guid>
		<description>Nate (really),

I got a kick out of your post on OPM also.  As much as people are critical of CEO&#039;s &quot;blind&quot; pursuit of profits, they need to remember that the CEO really is entrusted with growing &quot;other people&#039;s money.&quot;  It&#039;s easy to say that CEOs should give more of their company&#039;s money to charity, or that they should avoid certain lines of business, even if extremely profitable.  But in the end, the CEO has an obligation to pursue (within reason) the best financial interests of the shareholders -- not to make decisions based on his own moral agenda, except where doing the &quot;right&quot; or &quot;moral&quot; thing (i.e., public charitable contributions) ultimately benefits the company by improving its image, etc.  Sometimes that means breaking up a company.  If the shareholders don&#039;t agree with the company&#039;s philosophy, then they should sell their stock and invest in a different company.  I don&#039;t mean to imply that any officer is justified in any behavior that is illegal, tortious, or that breaches his or her fiduciary duty to the corporation -- that should be aggressively condemned and punished.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nate (really),</p>
<p>I got a kick out of your post on OPM also.  As much as people are critical of CEO&#8217;s &#8220;blind&#8221; pursuit of profits, they need to remember that the CEO really is entrusted with growing &#8220;other people&#8217;s money.&#8221;  It&#8217;s easy to say that CEOs should give more of their company&#8217;s money to charity, or that they should avoid certain lines of business, even if extremely profitable.  But in the end, the CEO has an obligation to pursue (within reason) the best financial interests of the shareholders &#8212; not to make decisions based on his own moral agenda, except where doing the &#8220;right&#8221; or &#8220;moral&#8221; thing (i.e., public charitable contributions) ultimately benefits the company by improving its image, etc.  Sometimes that means breaking up a company.  If the shareholders don&#8217;t agree with the company&#8217;s philosophy, then they should sell their stock and invest in a different company.  I don&#8217;t mean to imply that any officer is justified in any behavior that is illegal, tortious, or that breaches his or her fiduciary duty to the corporation &#8212; that should be aggressively condemned and punished.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/christian-ceos-in-hot-water/#comment-50516</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:21:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1952#comment-50516</guid>
		<description>&quot;Sorry Brett, didn’t mean to call you Nate.&quot;

I can think of no great ignomy...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Sorry Brett, didn’t mean to call you Nate.&#8221;</p>
<p>I can think of no great ignomy&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/christian-ceos-in-hot-water/#comment-50515</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:20:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1952#comment-50515</guid>
		<description>Sorry Brett, didn&#039;t mean to call you Nate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Brett, didn&#8217;t mean to call you Nate.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/christian-ceos-in-hot-water/#comment-50513</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:18:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1952#comment-50513</guid>
		<description>Nate,

Great reference to Catch-22, one of my favorite books (and movies).  You forget, however, that Milo&#039;s syndicate did not collapse due to his oversupply of Egyptian cotton.  The Germans agreed to buy his cotton in exchange for having Yosarrian&#039;s squadron bomb its own airbase -- which accidentally killed Milo and Yossarian&#039;s friend Nately.  Later, Milo is riding in a procession through the streets of Rome standing up in a jeep like Julius Caesar, king of all he surveys.  Yossarian climbs into the jeep and complains to Milo that he caused Nately&#039;s death.  Milo responded:

Milo: Nately died a wealthy man, Yossarian. He had over sixty shares in the syndicate. 
Yossarian: What difference does that make? He&#039;s dead. 
Milo: Then his family will get it. 
Yossarian: He didn&#039;t have time to have a family. 
Milo: Then his parents will get it. 
Yossarian: They don&#039;t need it, they&#039;re rich. 
Milo Minderbinder: Then they&#039;ll understand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nate,</p>
<p>Great reference to Catch-22, one of my favorite books (and movies).  You forget, however, that Milo&#8217;s syndicate did not collapse due to his oversupply of Egyptian cotton.  The Germans agreed to buy his cotton in exchange for having Yosarrian&#8217;s squadron bomb its own airbase &#8212; which accidentally killed Milo and Yossarian&#8217;s friend Nately.  Later, Milo is riding in a procession through the streets of Rome standing up in a jeep like Julius Caesar, king of all he surveys.  Yossarian climbs into the jeep and complains to Milo that he caused Nately&#8217;s death.  Milo responded:</p>
<p>Milo: Nately died a wealthy man, Yossarian. He had over sixty shares in the syndicate.<br />
Yossarian: What difference does that make? He&#8217;s dead.<br />
Milo: Then his family will get it.<br />
Yossarian: He didn&#8217;t have time to have a family.<br />
Milo: Then his parents will get it.<br />
Yossarian: They don&#8217;t need it, they&#8217;re rich.<br />
Milo Minderbinder: Then they&#8217;ll understand.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/christian-ceos-in-hot-water/#comment-50458</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:01:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1952#comment-50458</guid>
		<description>Yossarian had good reason to be afraid of everyone (including Milo Minderbinder). Everyone was trying to kill him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yossarian had good reason to be afraid of everyone (including Milo Minderbinder). Everyone was trying to kill him.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett McKay</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/christian-ceos-in-hot-water/#comment-50206</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett McKay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:48:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1952#comment-50206</guid>
		<description>The issue of avarice is brought up in Joseph Heller&#039;s famous novel Cacth-22. By using the character Milo Minderbender, Heller criticizes how capitalism can hijack good chracter traits and use them towards a selfish end. In the book Milo is described as an epitomy of solid clean character. He was sexless, full of integrity even tempered, and hardworking.He was very child like. Yosario, the books antagonist, feared him (Wel, he feared everybody in the book,) Milio starts this huge black market sydicate all thoughout the world. He is able to justify the bombing of his own men becasue it was good for the syndicate. What&#039;s good for the sydicate was good for all who were a part of it. In the end his operation gets so big that it collapses. All he has left is egyptian cotton and chocolate. He is able to convince himself that chocolate covered cotton tastes good and that there is a market for it. His own ideal traits disillusion him. 

Mild Miderbender parrallels today&#039;s CEOs. Although they may have great character traits that make them appear as good Christian men, these same traits can blind them to the ill effects of some of their actions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The issue of avarice is brought up in Joseph Heller&#8217;s famous novel Cacth-22. By using the character Milo Minderbender, Heller criticizes how capitalism can hijack good chracter traits and use them towards a selfish end. In the book Milo is described as an epitomy of solid clean character. He was sexless, full of integrity even tempered, and hardworking.He was very child like. Yosario, the books antagonist, feared him (Wel, he feared everybody in the book,) Milio starts this huge black market sydicate all thoughout the world. He is able to justify the bombing of his own men becasue it was good for the syndicate. What&#8217;s good for the sydicate was good for all who were a part of it. In the end his operation gets so big that it collapses. All he has left is egyptian cotton and chocolate. He is able to convince himself that chocolate covered cotton tastes good and that there is a market for it. His own ideal traits disillusion him. </p>
<p>Mild Miderbender parrallels today&#8217;s CEOs. Although they may have great character traits that make them appear as good Christian men, these same traits can blind them to the ill effects of some of their actions.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/christian-ceos-in-hot-water/#comment-50191</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:47:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1952#comment-50191</guid>
		<description>Brian: Actually, of the Wallstree morality tales churned out by Hollywood and Broadway during the 1980s, I much prefer &quot;Other People&#039;s Money&quot; to &quot;Wallstreet.&quot;  Da Vitto is wonderful as Larry the Liquidator and the movie actually talks about corporate law in a moderately intelligent way.  (Although the idea that a target company wouldn&#039;t reicorporate in Delaware because &quot;We are a Rhode Island corporation.  We have always been a Rhode Island corporation.&#039; is a bit far fetched.)  Larry&#039;s speech to the stock holders about creative destruction -- &quot;I bet the last company to make buggy whips made the best damn buggy whips you ever saw!  How&#039;d ya like to own stock in that corporation?&quot; -- unlike Stone&#039;s monologues actually evidences some real understanding of the tradeoffs involved.  Also, Larry&#039;s line -- &quot;I am Robin Hood.  I take from the rich and give to the middle class.  Well, upper middle class.&quot; -- is classic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian: Actually, of the Wallstree morality tales churned out by Hollywood and Broadway during the 1980s, I much prefer &#8220;Other People&#8217;s Money&#8221; to &#8220;Wallstreet.&#8221;  Da Vitto is wonderful as Larry the Liquidator and the movie actually talks about corporate law in a moderately intelligent way.  (Although the idea that a target company wouldn&#8217;t reicorporate in Delaware because &#8220;We are a Rhode Island corporation.  We have always been a Rhode Island corporation.&#8217; is a bit far fetched.)  Larry&#8217;s speech to the stock holders about creative destruction &#8212; &#8220;I bet the last company to make buggy whips made the best damn buggy whips you ever saw!  How&#8217;d ya like to own stock in that corporation?&#8221; &#8212; unlike Stone&#8217;s monologues actually evidences some real understanding of the tradeoffs involved.  Also, Larry&#8217;s line &#8212; &#8220;I am Robin Hood.  I take from the rich and give to the middle class.  Well, upper middle class.&#8221; &#8212; is classic.</p>
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		<title>By: David King Landrith</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/02/christian-ceos-in-hot-water/#comment-49927</link>
		<dc:creator>David King Landrith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:54:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1952#comment-49927</guid>
		<description>Some amount of virtue is required in order for business to function at all. From the bank teller to the mailman to the mid-level manager who knows some trade secrets to the CEO, all productive members of the workforce must have some minimal level of integrity in order for business to function. This does not, of course, make all productive workers good people. Moreover, bank tellers, mailmen, mid-level managers, and CEO&#039;s have all, from time to time, been known to cook up (more or less) successful schemes to defraud their employers.

Nor does it matter that many of these defrauders are charming, dote on their children, or have a something resembling a religious life. We must demand that those with whom we interact behave honorably. Too many Mormons strenuously object when people take the Lord&#039;s name in vain or use words like &quot;chick&quot; or &quot;dyke&quot; in polite conversation, but stand idly by when people really do bad things, because confronting real evil actually involves risk. We must do everything we can to ensure that corrupt men do not distort the system for their own gains. Integrity demands nothing less, even though it may often involve great personal sacrifice.

Is simple greed preferable to fanatical evil? Sure. But greed isn&#039;t good enough either, and we should lose no opportunity to say so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some amount of virtue is required in order for business to function at all. From the bank teller to the mailman to the mid-level manager who knows some trade secrets to the CEO, all productive members of the workforce must have some minimal level of integrity in order for business to function. This does not, of course, make all productive workers good people. Moreover, bank tellers, mailmen, mid-level managers, and CEO&#8217;s have all, from time to time, been known to cook up (more or less) successful schemes to defraud their employers.</p>
<p>Nor does it matter that many of these defrauders are charming, dote on their children, or have a something resembling a religious life. We must demand that those with whom we interact behave honorably. Too many Mormons strenuously object when people take the Lord&#8217;s name in vain or use words like &#8220;chick&#8221; or &#8220;dyke&#8221; in polite conversation, but stand idly by when people really do bad things, because confronting real evil actually involves risk. We must do everything we can to ensure that corrupt men do not distort the system for their own gains. Integrity demands nothing less, even though it may often involve great personal sacrifice.</p>
<p>Is simple greed preferable to fanatical evil? Sure. But greed isn&#8217;t good enough either, and we should lose no opportunity to say so.</p>
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