Comments on: Spare the rod and spoil the boy child. http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/01/spare-the-rod-and-spoil-the-boy-child/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 12 Feb 2012 07:57:21 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: diebold http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/01/spare-the-rod-and-spoil-the-boy-child/#comment-47755 diebold Wed, 02 Feb 2005 06:44:16 +0000 /?p=1908#comment-47755 Other Reasons aside, I again draw to your attention that from puberty on we seperate at church for part of our learning, but before puberty we stay together. Since your post involves teaching "the boy child" I think that to follow the example set up in church, giving our boys extra time or opportunity doesn't seem necessary until they ripen a little. Then by choice they can get involved in studies that interest them more than they interest girls. Other Reasons aside, I again draw to your attention that from puberty on we seperate at church for part of our learning, but before puberty we stay together. Since your post involves teaching “the boy child” I think that to follow the example set up in church, giving our boys extra time or opportunity doesn’t seem necessary until they ripen a little. Then by choice they can get involved in studies that interest them more than they interest girls.

]]> By: Adam Greenwood http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/01/spare-the-rod-and-spoil-the-boy-child/#comment-47398 Adam Greenwood Mon, 31 Jan 2005 21:36:52 +0000 /?p=1908#comment-47398 Anne GB, you come in under the grandmother-with-three-grandchildren exception. You know, comparing primary classes to Sunday School classes for teenagers makes me think that if single-sex education is a good idea for older kids, which I'm inclined to think it may be, its probably not because of learning differences but for Other Reasons. Anne GB,
you come in under the grandmother-with-three-grandchildren exception.

You know, comparing primary classes to Sunday School classes for teenagers makes me think that if single-sex education is a good idea for older kids, which I’m inclined to think it may be, its probably not because of learning differences but for Other Reasons.

]]> By: annegb http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/01/spare-the-rod-and-spoil-the-boy-child/#comment-46989 annegb Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:15:57 +0000 /?p=1908#comment-46989 I was the first in my family to graduate high school. That was a big deal, a long time ago. I went to college for two years, it took me that long to complete my freshman year. I was a grandma of three then. I thoroughly enjoyed the learning process, jumping spiritedly, as you can imagine, into anything we were discussing. I loved college, but I got sick and dropped out, perhaps never to return. Who knows? I continue to study and learn, often at the school of hard knocks. I agree with Sarah, above, my experience was that the girls were universally silly, giggly, whispering, twirling their hair, fussing with clothes and makeup, while the boys were universally seriously considering their future and education. They knew they had to make their living. I bonded with the boys. I don't know, that was in southern Utah, maybe it was the societal thing of older returned missionaries, vs. Mormon girls just wanting to get married. But maybe if they were separated, they would have taken their education more seriously. Does that break your rule, Adam? I was the first in my family to graduate high school. That was a big deal, a long time ago.

I went to college for two years, it took me that long to complete my freshman year. I was a grandma of three then. I thoroughly enjoyed the learning process, jumping spiritedly, as you can imagine, into anything we were discussing. I loved college, but I got sick and dropped out, perhaps never to return. Who knows?

I continue to study and learn, often at the school of hard knocks.

I agree with Sarah, above, my experience was that the girls were universally silly, giggly, whispering, twirling their hair, fussing with clothes and makeup, while the boys were universally seriously considering their future and education. They knew they had to make their living. I bonded with the boys.

I don’t know, that was in southern Utah, maybe it was the societal thing of older returned missionaries, vs. Mormon girls just wanting to get married. But maybe if they were separated, they would have taken their education more seriously. Does that break your rule, Adam?

]]> By: Sarah http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/01/spare-the-rod-and-spoil-the-boy-child/#comment-46885 Sarah Sun, 30 Jan 2005 08:32:32 +0000 /?p=1908#comment-46885 I'd be happier if I could find a way to get two of the six kids attending my Primary class their own individual teachers, than I'd be at trading for all girls (or boys) in that age range. We have enough kids in the CTR-7 class (18 on the rolls) to split by gender -- for whatever reason they gave me my mix (plus two inactive girls), and gave the other teacher 6 boys (1 less active -- comes about once a month; mine haven't been in at least 3 months) and 4 girls (1 comes every other week or so, as far as I can tell). Anyway, I see far more difference between the two and the rest, than between the boys and the girls. Both of the two are female -- one whose behavior seems to be at least 2 or 3 years behind the others (difficulty forming complete sentences, except for prayers and other by-rote recitations, etc.), while the other is just demanding in general, up to and including temper tantrums when she isn't called to give an answer(she also bullies and dominates the attention of the girl who seems to be behind), and there's no way to address her behavior the way my teaching manuals suggest and also teach a lesson -- at least, without making the lesson "this is how to get all of the teacher's time every week." I almost envy elementary school teachers -- they can spend an hour a week on one child's behavior, and still have 30 more such hours to get things done with everyone else. Now, the boys are more likely to actually hurt each other while goofing around (almost had a good head+doorknob meeting last week, and both have fallen out of their chairs and/or pushed the other out of their chair at least twice in the last month). So there are some differences. ^_^ Oh, and I did notice that the boys both fold up and rip apart the bookmarks I gave them last week. I'm thinking of having something -- possibly beanbags -- for them to fidget with. All of them have trouble with fidgeting; I suspect that's a function of them being 6 years old. The girls just play with their hair (and dresses, and they take off their shoes and put them back on a lot) Come to think of it, it's rather miraculous that we get through lessons at all. Most of the other teachers in our Primary don't expect to finish a whole lesson, except when teaching the upper end of the Senior Primary. More anecdotally... in my experience, YW was always more painful behavior-wise than Sunday School. But, the other girls hated me (they apologized to my mother 4 years after I graduated) in YW... and for whatever reason, they let me do my own thing in Sunday School. In Sunday School you were at least rewarded for being smart and doing the reading and so forth -- in YW, it was more or less a great big "talk about ourselves" session, with lots and LOTS of discussion of soccer, rugby, and high school band practices (also track -- I was the only non-track team member in my branch's youth group, for almost a year). My younger sister claims that her YW classes are filled predominantly with girls who talk over the teacher and ignore what the lesson is supposed to be (she comes home with thank you notes for listening in class). Her Sunday School class is smaller, and she never complains about it, but it might just be that it's not as annoying as YW, or that she expects more of the girls (who are actually her friends). I used to dream of going to a womens' college, the finances never worked out. My predominantly female classes at Ohio State, though, were frustrating; I found college women to be... silly. In elementary school, it was the same way. I’d be happier if I could find a way to get two of the six kids attending my Primary class their own individual teachers, than I’d be at trading for all girls (or boys) in that age range. We have enough kids in the CTR-7 class (18 on the rolls) to split by gender — for whatever reason they gave me my mix (plus two inactive girls), and gave the other teacher 6 boys (1 less active — comes about once a month; mine haven’t been in at least 3 months) and 4 girls (1 comes every other week or so, as far as I can tell).

Anyway, I see far more difference between the two and the rest, than between the boys and the girls. Both of the two are female — one whose behavior seems to be at least 2 or 3 years behind the others (difficulty forming complete sentences, except for prayers and other by-rote recitations, etc.), while the other is just demanding in general, up to and including temper tantrums when she isn’t called to give an answer(she also bullies and dominates the attention of the girl who seems to be behind), and there’s no way to address her behavior the way my teaching manuals suggest and also teach a lesson — at least, without making the lesson “this is how to get all of the teacher’s time every week.” I almost envy elementary school teachers — they can spend an hour a week on one child’s behavior, and still have 30 more such hours to get things done with everyone else.

Now, the boys are more likely to actually hurt each other while goofing around (almost had a good head+doorknob meeting last week, and both have fallen out of their chairs and/or pushed the other out of their chair at least twice in the last month). So there are some differences. ^_^

Oh, and I did notice that the boys both fold up and rip apart the bookmarks I gave them last week. I’m thinking of having something — possibly beanbags — for them to fidget with. All of them have trouble with fidgeting; I suspect that’s a function of them being 6 years old. The girls just play with their hair (and dresses, and they take off their shoes and put them back on a lot)

Come to think of it, it’s rather miraculous that we get through lessons at all. Most of the other teachers in our Primary don’t expect to finish a whole lesson, except when teaching the upper end of the Senior Primary.

More anecdotally… in my experience, YW was always more painful behavior-wise than Sunday School. But, the other girls hated me (they apologized to my mother 4 years after I graduated) in YW… and for whatever reason, they let me do my own thing in Sunday School. In Sunday School you were at least rewarded for being smart and doing the reading and so forth — in YW, it was more or less a great big “talk about ourselves” session, with lots and LOTS of discussion of soccer, rugby, and high school band practices (also track — I was the only non-track team member in my branch’s youth group, for almost a year). My younger sister claims that her YW classes are filled predominantly with girls who talk over the teacher and ignore what the lesson is supposed to be (she comes home with thank you notes for listening in class). Her Sunday School class is smaller, and she never complains about it, but it might just be that it’s not as annoying as YW, or that she expects more of the girls (who are actually her friends).

I used to dream of going to a womens’ college, the finances never worked out. My predominantly female classes at Ohio State, though, were frustrating; I found college women to be… silly. In elementary school, it was the same way.

]]> By: Diebold http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/01/spare-the-rod-and-spoil-the-boy-child/#comment-46650 Diebold Sat, 29 Jan 2005 05:56:16 +0000 /?p=1908#comment-46650 Assume that the church has a good working system. We meet as male and female together in Sunday School but in seperate classes for YM/YW RS/EQ. We discuss many attributes of one subject: truth. With the men and women together we gain a certain dynamic, when seperate by sexes, we gain a certain focus. Although different, neither role is more important or exculsive of the other. Part of our learning is gaining strength from the other, we must also learn our own strength. This system works and strengthens our community. How do we bring this system to our public and private schools, including post-secondary education? Annecdotal aside: In 15 years of education I only experienced one class of single sex education: 6th grade PE. Metal & wood works, cooking and sewing were taught with both male and female students attending. Hard on the teacher, but I loved metal and wood works as much as cooking and sewing class. Perhaps the male students felt differently about cooking and sewing, but I think those life skills are important for men to value. Assume that the church has a good working system. We meet as male and female together in Sunday School but in seperate classes for YM/YW RS/EQ. We discuss many attributes of one subject: truth. With the men and women together we gain a certain dynamic, when seperate by sexes, we gain a certain focus. Although different, neither role is more important or exculsive of the other. Part of our learning is gaining strength from the other, we must also learn our own strength. This system works and strengthens our community. How do we bring this system to our public and private schools, including post-secondary education?

Annecdotal aside: In 15 years of education I only experienced one class of single sex education: 6th grade PE. Metal & wood works, cooking and sewing were taught with both male and female students attending. Hard on the teacher, but I loved metal and wood works as much as cooking and sewing class. Perhaps the male students felt differently about cooking and sewing, but I think those life skills are important for men to value.

]]> By: Adam Greenwood http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/01/spare-the-rod-and-spoil-the-boy-child/#comment-46631 Adam Greenwood Sat, 29 Jan 2005 04:40:58 +0000 /?p=1908#comment-46631 I have to think you're right. On the other hand, I think primary classes work better mixed. At least that's my experience. I have to think you’re right. On the other hand, I think primary classes work better mixed. At least that’s my experience.

]]> By: Dan Richards http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/01/spare-the-rod-and-spoil-the-boy-child/#comment-46624 Dan Richards Sat, 29 Jan 2005 03:54:40 +0000 /?p=1908#comment-46624 I have taught both mixed-sex (14-15 year-old Sunday School) and single-sex (Valiant 10-12 primary boys) classes. I vastly preferred the latter class, and although the age difference certainly played a role, I think the absence of girls was more important. My teaching style was to look at the lesson manual to determine what passage of scripture was central to the lesson, and then chuck the manual and read that passage closely with the students. Most of my primary boys struggled to read KJV English initially, but persevered and became quite adept at finding meaning in even convoluted verses. I sensed that students in the mixed-sex class were less willing to risk embarrassment and more prone to mask insecurity with general sillines and misbehavior. Early adolescents are hypersensitive to the presence of the opposite sex, and I think it's easier to learn something and have the Spirit in the room when the students are not constantly trying to tease / impress / flirt with / attract each other. I have taught both mixed-sex (14-15 year-old Sunday School) and single-sex (Valiant 10-12 primary boys) classes. I vastly preferred the latter class, and although the age difference certainly played a role, I think the absence of girls was more important. My teaching style was to look at the lesson manual to determine what passage of scripture was central to the lesson, and then chuck the manual and read that passage closely with the students. Most of my primary boys struggled to read KJV English initially, but persevered and became quite adept at finding meaning in even convoluted verses. I sensed that students in the mixed-sex class were less willing to risk embarrassment and more prone to mask insecurity with general sillines and misbehavior. Early adolescents are hypersensitive to the presence of the opposite sex, and I think it’s easier to learn something and have the Spirit in the room when the students are not constantly trying to tease / impress / flirt with / attract each other.

]]> By: Mark Martin http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/01/spare-the-rod-and-spoil-the-boy-child/#comment-46573 Mark Martin Fri, 28 Jan 2005 22:55:00 +0000 /?p=1908#comment-46573 After reading a segment today on school reform by Lynn Stoddard, I think he defines the goal of education in a way that transcends the question of same-sex classrooms. Rather than the standard approach of enforcing a curriculum on all students, the mission is to "develop great human beings who are contributors -- not burdens -- to society." The focus is helping students foster identity, inquiry, and interaction. Here's a link, for those interested. http://www.meridianmagazine.com/ideas/050128education9.html After reading a segment today on school reform by Lynn Stoddard, I think he defines the goal of education in a way that transcends the question of same-sex classrooms. Rather than the standard approach of enforcing a curriculum on all students, the mission is to “develop great human beings who are contributors — not burdens — to society.” The focus is helping students foster identity, inquiry, and interaction. Here’s a link, for those interested.

http://www.meridianmagazine.com/ideas/050128education9.html

]]> By: Sheri Lynn http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/01/spare-the-rod-and-spoil-the-boy-child/#comment-46367 Sheri Lynn Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:24:32 +0000 /?p=1908#comment-46367 Men with normal brains use six times the grey brain matter solving an intellectual problem than women use. Women with normal brains use nine times the white brain matter solving an intellectual problem than men use. That's a pretty huge difference in brain activity as grey matter is organized, necessarily, mostly in a crumpled 2-dimensional array, while white matter has far more 3-D connectivity. Sorry, don't know how to make it poppable: http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,12033956-13762,00.html Men with normal brains use six times the grey brain matter solving an intellectual problem than women use. Women with normal brains use nine times the white brain matter solving an intellectual problem than men use. That’s a pretty huge difference in brain activity as grey matter is organized, necessarily, mostly in a crumpled 2-dimensional array, while white matter has far more 3-D connectivity.

Sorry, don’t know how to make it poppable:

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,12033956-13762,00.html

]]> By: annegb http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/01/spare-the-rod-and-spoil-the-boy-child/#comment-46117 annegb Fri, 28 Jan 2005 05:46:44 +0000 /?p=1908#comment-46117 I totally missed those questions at the end. I re-read it after Adam's comment, which made me realize that I didn't remember anything either and then I thought, "what is the subject?" Well, I think of course we teach differently. Of course we do. If I could see all your faces, I would probably temper my remarks. It's who you're looking at. I'm looking at my favorite thing here, myself. Not you. Crap, (pardon, anybody from South Africa), I hate when I get confused. Cognitive loss, whatever. I totally missed those questions at the end. I re-read it after Adam’s comment, which made me realize that I didn’t remember anything either and then I thought, “what is the subject?”

Well, I think of course we teach differently. Of course we do. If I could see all your faces, I would probably temper my remarks. It’s who you’re looking at. I’m looking at my favorite thing here, myself. Not you.

Crap, (pardon, anybody from South Africa), I hate when I get confused. Cognitive loss, whatever.

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