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	<title>Comments on: Fast Offerings: Are Mormons Stingy?</title>
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	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: sg</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/01/are-mormons-stingy/#comment-110092</link>
		<dc:creator>sg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Dec 2005 06:56:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1810#comment-110092</guid>
		<description>Why in the world would you pay tithing on a loan from the bank?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why in the world would you pay tithing on a loan from the bank?</p>
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		<title>By: lyle</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/01/are-mormons-stingy/#comment-39263</link>
		<dc:creator>lyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1810#comment-39263</guid>
		<description>Ed:  would you pay tithing when you remodel your home (perhaps on funds that you took out a 2nd mortgage for)?  or would you pay tithing when you sell your home, or whenever it is sold.  profit, at least per the tax code, is figured when you &#039;realize&#039; the profit.  most folks probably wait to tithe on home improvements until the property is sold.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ed:  would you pay tithing when you remodel your home (perhaps on funds that you took out a 2nd mortgage for)?  or would you pay tithing when you sell your home, or whenever it is sold.  profit, at least per the tax code, is figured when you &#8216;realize&#8217; the profit.  most folks probably wait to tithe on home improvements until the property is sold.</p>
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		<title>By: another N. Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/01/are-mormons-stingy/#comment-39261</link>
		<dc:creator>another N. Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Jan 2005 14:37:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1810#comment-39261</guid>
		<description>I worked restruants for years in the Utah Valley and Salt Lake City, I would all but have fights by wait staff not to have to work on fast Sundays, and Genral Confrence weekends as the standard tips at those time&#039;s was a book of Mormon, or a testimony written extolling the sin of working on sunday,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I worked restruants for years in the Utah Valley and Salt Lake City, I would all but have fights by wait staff not to have to work on fast Sundays, and Genral Confrence weekends as the standard tips at those time&#8217;s was a book of Mormon, or a testimony written extolling the sin of working on sunday,</p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/01/are-mormons-stingy/#comment-39240</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Jan 2005 05:18:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1810#comment-39240</guid>
		<description>I am a ward clerk in a semi-affluent ward in Texas.  I guess my ward is not &quot;normal&quot;, because we run a huge FO surplus.  About 80 percent of my ward pays a full tithe, and about 90 percent pay fast offerings.  (And I&#039;m talking about total ward membership, not just the active membership, which is about 80 percent.)  I cut less than a dozen FO checks each year, mostly for psychological counselling.  The only weird thing about FO in my ward is that there seems to be no correlation between relative prosperity (as measured by tithing donations) and FO amount.  Many familes pay $100 FO per month, some only $5.  The generous FO payers don&#039;t necessarily pay more in tithing than those who pay a small FO.  I know it&#039;s not my place to judge, but I wonder why some people who make more than $100k per year pay $10 in FO, while some who make $50-60k will pay $100.  But I was impressed last week, when in addition to the regular amounts collected for FO, our ward collected about $3,000 for humanitarian aid.  I suspect that by the end of this month, additional humanitarian aid will total at least that much again, probably more.

I think the stingyness is a Utah/Idaho thing, or maybe even a social class thing.  I just don&#039;t see it in upper-middle-class Texas.  (Not trying to bash on Utah, I grew up there.  I still consider myself a Utahn, not a Texan, but that&#039;s changing.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a ward clerk in a semi-affluent ward in Texas.  I guess my ward is not &#8220;normal&#8221;, because we run a huge FO surplus.  About 80 percent of my ward pays a full tithe, and about 90 percent pay fast offerings.  (And I&#8217;m talking about total ward membership, not just the active membership, which is about 80 percent.)  I cut less than a dozen FO checks each year, mostly for psychological counselling.  The only weird thing about FO in my ward is that there seems to be no correlation between relative prosperity (as measured by tithing donations) and FO amount.  Many familes pay $100 FO per month, some only $5.  The generous FO payers don&#8217;t necessarily pay more in tithing than those who pay a small FO.  I know it&#8217;s not my place to judge, but I wonder why some people who make more than $100k per year pay $10 in FO, while some who make $50-60k will pay $100.  But I was impressed last week, when in addition to the regular amounts collected for FO, our ward collected about $3,000 for humanitarian aid.  I suspect that by the end of this month, additional humanitarian aid will total at least that much again, probably more.</p>
<p>I think the stingyness is a Utah/Idaho thing, or maybe even a social class thing.  I just don&#8217;t see it in upper-middle-class Texas.  (Not trying to bash on Utah, I grew up there.  I still consider myself a Utahn, not a Texan, but that&#8217;s changing.)</p>
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		<title>By: Sheri Lynn</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/01/are-mormons-stingy/#comment-39218</link>
		<dc:creator>Sheri Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Jan 2005 22:01:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1810#comment-39218</guid>
		<description>Right now my generosity is limited to not taking charity for which we qualify.  Our fast offering is minimal--literally the cost of four basic meals, because our grocery budget is $200/month for five people--we&#039;re living on our food storage until my husband finishes graduate school.  

I don&#039;t feel bad about that.  I was offered free turkeys and food baskets during the holidays, and our branch president gave me an order form for food from the storehouse.  I did not use it.  I can manage without, so I am; we have what we need, though some days I remember steak dinners and feel very sorry for myself. Oh well!  When I have more than I need, I will continue to remember those who do not have what they need. I think there are billions of people in the world who have far less than I do.  I won&#039;t take what could go to some of them, and as long as I can put a meal on the table from our own resources, that is going to be true.  I note I have an internet connection and cell  phones.  I&#039;d be ungrateful to consider myself needy.

I hope as my business takes off, I will become a giver.  I have fantasies of writing six figure tithing checks.  I hope in the meantime that the Lord sees my not taking as giving. It&#039;s the best I can do.  Sometimes I wonder how in the world a family so rich as we are could qualify for food stamps, welfare help of any kind.  Most American households waste more than they need (though there is genuine need out there.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right now my generosity is limited to not taking charity for which we qualify.  Our fast offering is minimal&#8211;literally the cost of four basic meals, because our grocery budget is $200/month for five people&#8211;we&#8217;re living on our food storage until my husband finishes graduate school.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t feel bad about that.  I was offered free turkeys and food baskets during the holidays, and our branch president gave me an order form for food from the storehouse.  I did not use it.  I can manage without, so I am; we have what we need, though some days I remember steak dinners and feel very sorry for myself. Oh well!  When I have more than I need, I will continue to remember those who do not have what they need. I think there are billions of people in the world who have far less than I do.  I won&#8217;t take what could go to some of them, and as long as I can put a meal on the table from our own resources, that is going to be true.  I note I have an internet connection and cell  phones.  I&#8217;d be ungrateful to consider myself needy.</p>
<p>I hope as my business takes off, I will become a giver.  I have fantasies of writing six figure tithing checks.  I hope in the meantime that the Lord sees my not taking as giving. It&#8217;s the best I can do.  Sometimes I wonder how in the world a family so rich as we are could qualify for food stamps, welfare help of any kind.  Most American households waste more than they need (though there is genuine need out there.)</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Johnson</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/01/are-mormons-stingy/#comment-38872</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Jan 2005 02:05:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1810#comment-38872</guid>
		<description>I am not sure that I have ever lived in a ward (except for university wards) that ran a fast offering surpluss.  So I have to assume that my tithing has some charitable component to it.

I certainly didn&#039;t see one in my time in South America.  My wife and I decided to double our fast offerings after a plea from the Bishop.  Imagine my suprise when I found out a few months later that the average monthly contribution for the ward totalled only about double what my wife and I donated out of our Peace Corps stipend.  This was in a ward where Elders quorum activites often consisted of mixing and pouring concrete so that some family could move up from a dirt floor in their one-room house.

We love the new Perpetual Education Fund, by the way.  Maybe someday our old ward in Bolivia will run a fast offering surplus.  So many bright young men and women in our area came off their missions, married as they should have, and found themselves financially unable to continue in school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not sure that I have ever lived in a ward (except for university wards) that ran a fast offering surpluss.  So I have to assume that my tithing has some charitable component to it.</p>
<p>I certainly didn&#8217;t see one in my time in South America.  My wife and I decided to double our fast offerings after a plea from the Bishop.  Imagine my suprise when I found out a few months later that the average monthly contribution for the ward totalled only about double what my wife and I donated out of our Peace Corps stipend.  This was in a ward where Elders quorum activites often consisted of mixing and pouring concrete so that some family could move up from a dirt floor in their one-room house.</p>
<p>We love the new Perpetual Education Fund, by the way.  Maybe someday our old ward in Bolivia will run a fast offering surplus.  So many bright young men and women in our area came off their missions, married as they should have, and found themselves financially unable to continue in school.</p>
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		<title>By: Kim Siever</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/01/are-mormons-stingy/#comment-38465</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim Siever</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jan 2005 05:54:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1810#comment-38465</guid>
		<description>As a ward clerk I can attest that it is common for ward members to pay tithing and yet not pay fast offering.

I also agree with others who say that tithing really isn&#039;t a charitable donation. Many people pay it so they can go to the temple or because it is a commandment, not because they think it fulfils some humanitarian purpose. From a comparative standpoint, tithing is more like taxes than charitable donations. Fast offerings would be closer to charitable donations than tithing.

We pay taxes to receive highways, health care, education, security, and so on. We pay tithing to keep our buildings maintained, pay for commercials, provide broadcast systems for conference, maintain the Church&#039;s website, keep prices of videos at 4-6$ and so on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a ward clerk I can attest that it is common for ward members to pay tithing and yet not pay fast offering.</p>
<p>I also agree with others who say that tithing really isn&#8217;t a charitable donation. Many people pay it so they can go to the temple or because it is a commandment, not because they think it fulfils some humanitarian purpose. From a comparative standpoint, tithing is more like taxes than charitable donations. Fast offerings would be closer to charitable donations than tithing.</p>
<p>We pay taxes to receive highways, health care, education, security, and so on. We pay tithing to keep our buildings maintained, pay for commercials, provide broadcast systems for conference, maintain the Church&#8217;s website, keep prices of videos at 4-6$ and so on.</p>
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		<title>By: ed</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/01/are-mormons-stingy/#comment-38456</link>
		<dc:creator>ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jan 2005 04:16:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1810#comment-38456</guid>
		<description>I expect most home production escapes tithing altogether. For example, if you spend a lot of time remodelling your house, you create wealth for yourself, but most people probably don&#039;t pay tithing on this &quot;income,&quot; (except perhaps eventually when the house is sold).  Or if you spend your time cooking and cleaning, rather than paying someone else to do it while you work for pay, the value you create doesn&#039;t get taxed or tithed.  

Maybe that&#039;s another reason why active mormon women work less outside the home...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I expect most home production escapes tithing altogether. For example, if you spend a lot of time remodelling your house, you create wealth for yourself, but most people probably don&#8217;t pay tithing on this &#8220;income,&#8221; (except perhaps eventually when the house is sold).  Or if you spend your time cooking and cleaning, rather than paying someone else to do it while you work for pay, the value you create doesn&#8217;t get taxed or tithed.  </p>
<p>Maybe that&#8217;s another reason why active mormon women work less outside the home&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: greenfrog</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/01/are-mormons-stingy/#comment-38451</link>
		<dc:creator>greenfrog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jan 2005 03:41:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1810#comment-38451</guid>
		<description>http://www.wkbn.com/Global/story.asp?S=2764403&amp;nav=2QEr81Al

Based on the above, I think that the $40M was to the Community of Christ, not the LDS Church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.wkbn.com/Global/story.asp?S=2764403&#038;nav=2QEr81Al" rel="nofollow">http://www.wkbn.com/Global/story.asp?S=2764403&#038;nav=2QEr81Al</a></p>
<p>Based on the above, I think that the $40M was to the Community of Christ, not the LDS Church.</p>
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		<title>By: nic</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/01/are-mormons-stingy/#comment-38420</link>
		<dc:creator>nic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jan 2005 01:10:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1810#comment-38420</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&lt;/i&gt;
Frank,

You&#039;re right.  I was using pre-Bush tax cut rates (it&#039;s been awhile since my tax classes at byu).  It looks like the top federal bracket now is 35%.  Short-term gains (for stock held less than a year) are taxed at 35% (the same as ordinary income) and long term gains are taxed at 15%.

So in my scenario above, your effective tithing rate is 2.5% if the stock had been held for less than a year and 4.5% if it had been held for more than a year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i></i><br />
Frank,</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right.  I was using pre-Bush tax cut rates (it&#8217;s been awhile since my tax classes at byu).  It looks like the top federal bracket now is 35%.  Short-term gains (for stock held less than a year) are taxed at 35% (the same as ordinary income) and long term gains are taxed at 15%.</p>
<p>So in my scenario above, your effective tithing rate is 2.5% if the stock had been held for less than a year and 4.5% if it had been held for more than a year.</p>
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