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	<title>Comments on: Thoughts on evolution</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/thoughts-on-evolution/</link>
	<description>Truth will prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Ingrid</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/thoughts-on-evolution/#comment-58631</link>
		<dc:creator>Ingrid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Apr 2005 01:33:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1736#comment-58631</guid>
		<description>You all have a marvelous way with words and just possibly are too serious. The only manner we (mankind) can be considered engineers in is as &quot;Reverse Engineers&quot;. It exists, we take it apart and try to put it back together and so we learn. All of our human components have a parallel elsewhere in nature, it&#039;s the combination of ingredients that make us different.
Lighten up a little and give your imagination some play room. The answers are all out there we just need to find matching questions.
Have you ever wondered about the &quot;Missing Link&quot; in Darwinian evolution? I&#039;d like to offer that it isn&#039;t missing because it was never there. The whole exercise was to get us to see how close &amp; yet different we are from something that is almost like us. From there we can take the next leap (faltering step) to making the comparison to things more dissimiliar. Holism (holy-ism).
Enough, Space Pup signing out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You all have a marvelous way with words and just possibly are too serious. The only manner we (mankind) can be considered engineers in is as &#8220;Reverse Engineers&#8221;. It exists, we take it apart and try to put it back together and so we learn. All of our human components have a parallel elsewhere in nature, it&#8217;s the combination of ingredients that make us different.<br />
Lighten up a little and give your imagination some play room. The answers are all out there we just need to find matching questions.<br />
Have you ever wondered about the &#8220;Missing Link&#8221; in Darwinian evolution? I&#8217;d like to offer that it isn&#8217;t missing because it was never there. The whole exercise was to get us to see how close &#038; yet different we are from something that is almost like us. From there we can take the next leap (faltering step) to making the comparison to things more dissimiliar. Holism (holy-ism).<br />
Enough, Space Pup signing out.</p>
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		<title>By: clark</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/thoughts-on-evolution/#comment-35232</link>
		<dc:creator>clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:31:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1736#comment-35232</guid>
		<description>Whoops, in the above I mean to write, &quot;...when Christianity turned its theology towards more &lt;i&gt;Hellenistic&lt;/i&gt; philosophical concerns regarding Being.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoops, in the above I mean to write, &#8220;&#8230;when Christianity turned its theology towards more <i>Hellenistic</i> philosophical concerns regarding Being.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: clark</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/thoughts-on-evolution/#comment-35229</link>
		<dc:creator>clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:27:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1736#comment-35229</guid>
		<description>I think Brigham Young&#039;s view of Moses&#039; account in Genesis was tied up in a notion of ritual and hidden symbolism.  (Interesting, the JST which I&#039;m not sure Brigham was familiar with, has Moses being given Genesis 1 as dictated by God, and not as a normal presentation per se)  I&#039;d love to discuss Brigham&#039;s views, although clearly a lot of it is speculative and a lot we&#039;d consider false doctrine today.  But his whole approach is quite the contrast to some readings of Genesis.

Regarding Benjamin, no, I don&#039;t think he was an occasionalist.  Far from it. I think he is repeating the very early Hebrew view of God.  (Largely lost when Christianity turned its theology towards more philosophical concerns regarding Being)  A book I always heartily recommend to Mormons is by the Jewish scholar Jon Levenson, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0691029504/qid=1103142189/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-3039940-5591844?v=glance&amp;s=books&amp;n=507846&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;Creation and the Persistence of Evil&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt;.  The original view of God was that creation and existence was a constant battle or strife.  Creation is never a one time for all event, but an ongoing re-creation.  The image is God holding a bay the waters of chaos from which to provide a clearing for us where we can exist.  I wrote a fairly philosophical discussion of this and the notion of such a clearing in Mormon thought &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.libertypages.com/clark/Intros/agencyshape.html&quot;&gt;over on my blog&lt;/a&gt;.  It&#039;s probably not of interest to most, but it does touch upon some of the notions you bring up, and perhaps is quite relevant now that I think of it to how to consider the whole issue of revelation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Brigham Young&#8217;s view of Moses&#8217; account in Genesis was tied up in a notion of ritual and hidden symbolism.  (Interesting, the JST which I&#8217;m not sure Brigham was familiar with, has Moses being given Genesis 1 as dictated by God, and not as a normal presentation per se)  I&#8217;d love to discuss Brigham&#8217;s views, although clearly a lot of it is speculative and a lot we&#8217;d consider false doctrine today.  But his whole approach is quite the contrast to some readings of Genesis.</p>
<p>Regarding Benjamin, no, I don&#8217;t think he was an occasionalist.  Far from it. I think he is repeating the very early Hebrew view of God.  (Largely lost when Christianity turned its theology towards more philosophical concerns regarding Being)  A book I always heartily recommend to Mormons is by the Jewish scholar Jon Levenson, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0691029504/qid=1103142189/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-3039940-5591844?v=glance&#038;s=books&#038;n=507846"><i>Creation and the Persistence of Evil</i></a>.  The original view of God was that creation and existence was a constant battle or strife.  Creation is never a one time for all event, but an ongoing re-creation.  The image is God holding a bay the waters of chaos from which to provide a clearing for us where we can exist.  I wrote a fairly philosophical discussion of this and the notion of such a clearing in Mormon thought <a href="http://www.libertypages.com/clark/Intros/agencyshape.html">over on my blog</a>.  It&#8217;s probably not of interest to most, but it does touch upon some of the notions you bring up, and perhaps is quite relevant now that I think of it to how to consider the whole issue of revelation.</p>
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		<title>By: John Mansfield</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/thoughts-on-evolution/#comment-35224</link>
		<dc:creator>John Mansfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:01:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1736#comment-35224</guid>
		<description>Clark, was Benjamin an occasionalist?  &quot;... him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do accoring to you own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another...&quot;  Maybe this is like Brigham Young&#039;s idea that Moses repeated the six-day creation because that was the tradition of Moses&#039; time; we aren&#039;t really preserved by daily breath loans and know that now.

I will clarify that Elizabeth, my wife, is a molecular biologist, and as nearly all biologists, she deals with evolution as a groundbase fact.  I respect her knowledge and faith.  I agree that our bodies show evidence of being evolved because they are.  I also agree that there is a difference between hard open problems and broken theories.  What I puzzle with is the use by God the Creator of a system that needs no user.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clark, was Benjamin an occasionalist?  &#8220;&#8230; him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do accoring to you own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another&#8230;&#8221;  Maybe this is like Brigham Young&#8217;s idea that Moses repeated the six-day creation because that was the tradition of Moses&#8217; time; we aren&#8217;t really preserved by daily breath loans and know that now.</p>
<p>I will clarify that Elizabeth, my wife, is a molecular biologist, and as nearly all biologists, she deals with evolution as a groundbase fact.  I respect her knowledge and faith.  I agree that our bodies show evidence of being evolved because they are.  I also agree that there is a difference between hard open problems and broken theories.  What I puzzle with is the use by God the Creator of a system that needs no user.</p>
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		<title>By: John Mansfield</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/thoughts-on-evolution/#comment-35223</link>
		<dc:creator>John Mansfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:01:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1736#comment-35223</guid>
		<description>Clark, was Benjamin an occasionalist?  &quot;... him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do accoring to you own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another...&quot;  Maybe this is like Brigham Young&#039;s idea that Moses repeated the six-day creation because that was the tradition of Moses&#039; time; we aren&#039;t really preserved by daily breath loans and know that now.

I will clarify that Elizabeth, my wife, is a molecular biologist, and as nearly all biologists, she deals with evolution as a groundbase fact.  I respect her knowledge and faith.  I agree that our bodies show evidence of being evolved because they are.  I also agree that there is a difference between hard open problems and broken theories.  What I puzzle with is the use by God the Creator of a system that needs no user.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clark, was Benjamin an occasionalist?  &#8220;&#8230; him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do accoring to you own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another&#8230;&#8221;  Maybe this is like Brigham Young&#8217;s idea that Moses repeated the six-day creation because that was the tradition of Moses&#8217; time; we aren&#8217;t really preserved by daily breath loans and know that now.</p>
<p>I will clarify that Elizabeth, my wife, is a molecular biologist, and as nearly all biologists, she deals with evolution as a groundbase fact.  I respect her knowledge and faith.  I agree that our bodies show evidence of being evolved because they are.  I also agree that there is a difference between hard open problems and broken theories.  What I puzzle with is the use by God the Creator of a system that needs no user.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/thoughts-on-evolution/#comment-35068</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Dec 2004 06:03:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1736#comment-35068</guid>
		<description>I should add that in addition to the recent update of the PoGP manual they updated the BoM one in the early 90&#039;s.  I was more speaking of the D&amp;C and OT manuals.  Of course in my opinion none of them are terribly good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should add that in addition to the recent update of the PoGP manual they updated the BoM one in the early 90&#8217;s.  I was more speaking of the D&#038;C and OT manuals.  Of course in my opinion none of them are terribly good.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/thoughts-on-evolution/#comment-35067</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Dec 2004 06:01:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1736#comment-35067</guid>
		<description>The institute manuals are &lt;a href=&quot;http://ldsces.org/manual_index.asp&quot;&gt;available online here&lt;/a&gt;.  Each chapter is a separate PDF, so don&#039;t worry about &lt;i&gt;huge&lt;/i&gt; downloads.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The institute manuals are <a href="http://ldsces.org/manual_index.asp">available online here</a>.  Each chapter is a separate PDF, so don&#8217;t worry about <i>huge</i> downloads.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/thoughts-on-evolution/#comment-35061</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Dec 2004 05:26:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1736#comment-35061</guid>
		<description>What Jeremy?

You don&#039;t like the idea that Venus was ejected from Jupiter (hence the red eye) and passed by the earth just in time to cause all the havoc recorded in the book of Exodus?

We know now that it was probably an asteroid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Jeremy?</p>
<p>You don&#8217;t like the idea that Venus was ejected from Jupiter (hence the red eye) and passed by the earth just in time to cause all the havoc recorded in the book of Exodus?</p>
<p>We know now that it was probably an asteroid.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/thoughts-on-evolution/#comment-35059</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Dec 2004 05:14:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1736#comment-35059</guid>
		<description>Clark,

Could you point out where on lds.org one can access the institute manuals? I couldn&#039;t seem to find them.  I can verify however, that the institute manual I or my wife bought not all that many years ago does indeed &quot;approvingly&quot; mention (on p. 28) three books by Velikovsky, which argue a young-earth creation model (via a truly eccentric--in both pertinent senses of the word--theory about planetary collisions). It also includes a whole section devoted more or less to dismantling evolutionary theory, using extensive quotations from the work of one Harold G. Coffin (about whom I know nothing).

Incidentally, the PoGP manual, published in 2000, still has some vestiges of creationism and young-earth-ism, but to a much lesser degree.  No Velikovsky quackery, at least.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clark,</p>
<p>Could you point out where on lds.org one can access the institute manuals? I couldn&#8217;t seem to find them.  I can verify however, that the institute manual I or my wife bought not all that many years ago does indeed &#8220;approvingly&#8221; mention (on p. 28) three books by Velikovsky, which argue a young-earth creation model (via a truly eccentric&#8211;in both pertinent senses of the word&#8211;theory about planetary collisions). It also includes a whole section devoted more or less to dismantling evolutionary theory, using extensive quotations from the work of one Harold G. Coffin (about whom I know nothing).</p>
<p>Incidentally, the PoGP manual, published in 2000, still has some vestiges of creationism and young-earth-ism, but to a much lesser degree.  No Velikovsky quackery, at least.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/thoughts-on-evolution/#comment-35057</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Dec 2004 05:08:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1736#comment-35057</guid>
		<description>John, the difference is that in one case we can discover a natural law while in the other case we end up with what is termed occasionalism.  (i.e. the belief that actions are enabled by a miracle at all occasions)  If one doesn&#039;t need occasionalism, why adopt it?  

Basically my view simply has God as an actor within the universe acting according to its laws.  He can change the environment, but abides by the laws he enacted.  Further it requires less involvement by God which seems more in keeping with what we typically experience.  Of course the greatest answer is by Ockham.  That&#039;s not to say that we may arrive at what Ebenezer suggested was an irreducible situation that can&#039;t be explained by evolution.  But thus far we haven&#039;t found such, so why assume, because of our ignorance, that they exist?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, the difference is that in one case we can discover a natural law while in the other case we end up with what is termed occasionalism.  (i.e. the belief that actions are enabled by a miracle at all occasions)  If one doesn&#8217;t need occasionalism, why adopt it?  </p>
<p>Basically my view simply has God as an actor within the universe acting according to its laws.  He can change the environment, but abides by the laws he enacted.  Further it requires less involvement by God which seems more in keeping with what we typically experience.  Of course the greatest answer is by Ockham.  That&#8217;s not to say that we may arrive at what Ebenezer suggested was an irreducible situation that can&#8217;t be explained by evolution.  But thus far we haven&#8217;t found such, so why assume, because of our ignorance, that they exist?</p>
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