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	<title>Comments on: My Only Real Regret</title>
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	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Kyle</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/my-only-real-regret/#comment-128004</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Apr 2006 02:59:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1704#comment-128004</guid>
		<description>I wear garments when I ride motocross, a lot of time the bottoms hang out below my motocross shorts because of constant moving and so I do tend to pull the leg bottoms up but not roll them. I do remove them when I lift weights, go boating, tanning, and occasionally when I worked outside doing construciton in extreme heat climates.  (glad those days are behind me)   For myself being a male, they are easy to wear and only occasionaly become frustrating with my outfit.  (wearing a button up requiring a dark undershirt for example causes 3 layers of clothing.ahhhhhhh) I watch my wife trying so hard to find clothes to fit her and cover the garments and it&#039;s a little annoying.  She can&#039;t wear shorts anymore, only capri&#039;s seem to work and I know she is very bitter about wearing them but isn&#039;t willing to go against the gospel and remove them.   It&#039;s easy to say that this is personal and needs to be &quot;gotten&#039; over&quot; but when it&#039;s something a woman deals with nearly every day, it would become frustrating.   We just have to keep in mind that they are a lot easier to wear than they were for the early saints and many of the FLDS members (polygamists) faithfully wear their garments which are full length with long sleeve shirts all year round.   Look at it like that and it seems ours are suddenly easy to wear.   I was told by my stake pres. at time of endowment to remove them in sports because of excess sweating, heat, and because they were not easily covered.   I think we each have to use our disgression when to wear and remove them.   It&#039;s easy for me to wear them all day now that I work in an office but when I worked in construction up on roofs all day long in the hot summers, I tried but just couldn&#039;t find any peace wearing them the full day.   Sometimes you just have to &quot;adjust the garments&quot; slightly to fit, that&#039;s just life but my feelings are they shouldn&#039;t really be rolled and adjusted to wear they don&#039;t look natural.  Even in T shirts, I have to sometimes pull the garment sleeves back up my arm or it hangs out the sleeve, this doesn&#039;t mean I should wear xlarge shirts knowing a large is a perfect fit but lacks 1/2 of sleeve.   Just my 2 cents guys.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wear garments when I ride motocross, a lot of time the bottoms hang out below my motocross shorts because of constant moving and so I do tend to pull the leg bottoms up but not roll them. I do remove them when I lift weights, go boating, tanning, and occasionally when I worked outside doing construciton in extreme heat climates.  (glad those days are behind me)   For myself being a male, they are easy to wear and only occasionaly become frustrating with my outfit.  (wearing a button up requiring a dark undershirt for example causes 3 layers of clothing.ahhhhhhh) I watch my wife trying so hard to find clothes to fit her and cover the garments and it&#8217;s a little annoying.  She can&#8217;t wear shorts anymore, only capri&#8217;s seem to work and I know she is very bitter about wearing them but isn&#8217;t willing to go against the gospel and remove them.   It&#8217;s easy to say that this is personal and needs to be &#8220;gotten&#8217; over&#8221; but when it&#8217;s something a woman deals with nearly every day, it would become frustrating.   We just have to keep in mind that they are a lot easier to wear than they were for the early saints and many of the FLDS members (polygamists) faithfully wear their garments which are full length with long sleeve shirts all year round.   Look at it like that and it seems ours are suddenly easy to wear.   I was told by my stake pres. at time of endowment to remove them in sports because of excess sweating, heat, and because they were not easily covered.   I think we each have to use our disgression when to wear and remove them.   It&#8217;s easy for me to wear them all day now that I work in an office but when I worked in construction up on roofs all day long in the hot summers, I tried but just couldn&#8217;t find any peace wearing them the full day.   Sometimes you just have to &#8220;adjust the garments&#8221; slightly to fit, that&#8217;s just life but my feelings are they shouldn&#8217;t really be rolled and adjusted to wear they don&#8217;t look natural.  Even in T shirts, I have to sometimes pull the garment sleeves back up my arm or it hangs out the sleeve, this doesn&#8217;t mean I should wear xlarge shirts knowing a large is a perfect fit but lacks 1/2 of sleeve.   Just my 2 cents guys.</p>
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		<title>By: airforce wife</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/my-only-real-regret/#comment-113106</link>
		<dc:creator>airforce wife</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Dec 2005 07:03:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1704#comment-113106</guid>
		<description>I have read this thread most of it posted long ago, I feel that the clothing issue for woman is not one of worldly vanity, I feel that we are directed to dress nicely and wearing a baggy t-shirt to church over a baggy skirt doesn&#039;t qualify, frumpy is disrespectful. I am 5&#039;9&quot; tall and I would challenge anyone to buy me a shirt that I can bend over in and not show some white, I make a lot of my own shirts for that purpose, I just add 5&quot; to the bottom of my pattern. And as a thin large busted lady I would like to point out to the guy offended by clevage that when you have breasts, they are not that interesting, I go for days without thinking about how great they are, so if I bend over and my every thought isn&#039;t focused on what a great view I am giving you, instead I am more focused on the task at hand, I would like to up front say I am sorry, because when it is summer and hot and humid I am not wearing a turtle neck, (which is the only type of shirt that doesn&#039;t have bend over cleavage on me) and would challenge any man to try it and see how fast that idea gets chucked. as for when it is okay to not wear the garment I was told when I went to the temple, the 3 s rule, sports, swiming, and sex.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have read this thread most of it posted long ago, I feel that the clothing issue for woman is not one of worldly vanity, I feel that we are directed to dress nicely and wearing a baggy t-shirt to church over a baggy skirt doesn&#8217;t qualify, frumpy is disrespectful. I am 5&#8217;9&#8243; tall and I would challenge anyone to buy me a shirt that I can bend over in and not show some white, I make a lot of my own shirts for that purpose, I just add 5&#8243; to the bottom of my pattern. And as a thin large busted lady I would like to point out to the guy offended by clevage that when you have breasts, they are not that interesting, I go for days without thinking about how great they are, so if I bend over and my every thought isn&#8217;t focused on what a great view I am giving you, instead I am more focused on the task at hand, I would like to up front say I am sorry, because when it is summer and hot and humid I am not wearing a turtle neck, (which is the only type of shirt that doesn&#8217;t have bend over cleavage on me) and would challenge any man to try it and see how fast that idea gets chucked. as for when it is okay to not wear the garment I was told when I went to the temple, the 3 s rule, sports, swiming, and sex.</p>
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		<title>By: DJRoss</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/my-only-real-regret/#comment-111019</link>
		<dc:creator>DJRoss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Dec 2005 10:52:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1704#comment-111019</guid>
		<description>Not to let a dead horse rest in &quot;pieces&quot;, here is a question to all the female posters out there regarding the garments issue.

Do many of you miss or wish you could at times where more &quot;sexy&quot; underwear for your own sakes.

My wife recently shared with me that at times she would like to do this for the feeling of confidence that she is attractive thus effecting her confidence in other aspects in her life.

It isn&#039;t an issue of being revealing or immodest since what she wears under her clothes is her business. It is a matter of instilling a sense of selfconfidence. 

I know that when I put on the suit and tie there is a sense of confidence I feel, and it is transfered over to co-workers, and clients when they associate with me. I can understand my wife having a similar desire for a little boost that clothes can provide even if in her case it is more an issue of how the clothing actually feels on her skin (underclothing) vs how it hangs on my shoulders (my coat).

Her desire is not borne out of a need to keep up with fashion or caring about how others see her, it is about her own sense of feeling confident around others, and she as I have mentioned before feels that if she is feeling attractive through the sense of touch lingerie provides her, that it instills greater confidence.

I just thought it was an interesting thought as I had never considered that before. BTW the conversation was inspired by a lingerie commercial being aired on television last night while we were enjoying a little late night sofa talk.

btw, we have both been card carrying garment wearers since the 1980s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to let a dead horse rest in &#8220;pieces&#8221;, here is a question to all the female posters out there regarding the garments issue.</p>
<p>Do many of you miss or wish you could at times where more &#8220;sexy&#8221; underwear for your own sakes.</p>
<p>My wife recently shared with me that at times she would like to do this for the feeling of confidence that she is attractive thus effecting her confidence in other aspects in her life.</p>
<p>It isn&#8217;t an issue of being revealing or immodest since what she wears under her clothes is her business. It is a matter of instilling a sense of selfconfidence. </p>
<p>I know that when I put on the suit and tie there is a sense of confidence I feel, and it is transfered over to co-workers, and clients when they associate with me. I can understand my wife having a similar desire for a little boost that clothes can provide even if in her case it is more an issue of how the clothing actually feels on her skin (underclothing) vs how it hangs on my shoulders (my coat).</p>
<p>Her desire is not borne out of a need to keep up with fashion or caring about how others see her, it is about her own sense of feeling confident around others, and she as I have mentioned before feels that if she is feeling attractive through the sense of touch lingerie provides her, that it instills greater confidence.</p>
<p>I just thought it was an interesting thought as I had never considered that before. BTW the conversation was inspired by a lingerie commercial being aired on television last night while we were enjoying a little late night sofa talk.</p>
<p>btw, we have both been card carrying garment wearers since the 1980s.</p>
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		<title>By: annegb</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/my-only-real-regret/#comment-97706</link>
		<dc:creator>annegb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:24:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1704#comment-97706</guid>
		<description>&quot;the garment...is an imperfect arbiter of modesty.&quot;  Nate, I always have to look up your words and I&#039;m heartened that somebody who uses big words with precision can&#039;t spell.

But, I digress.  I agree with you.  completely.

There is nothing that makes me want to throw up more than a woman in Relief Society telling everybody how she won&#039;t let her little girls wear sleeveless dresses or blouses.  Gag a maggot.

On the other hand, making the transition from very short short (think Daisy Duke) and tank tops to sleeve-d tops and pants was no big deal for me at all.

As for me and my husband, it takes two seconds to remove garments.  And that is as far as I will go with that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;the garment&#8230;is an imperfect arbiter of modesty.&#8221;  Nate, I always have to look up your words and I&#8217;m heartened that somebody who uses big words with precision can&#8217;t spell.</p>
<p>But, I digress.  I agree with you.  completely.</p>
<p>There is nothing that makes me want to throw up more than a woman in Relief Society telling everybody how she won&#8217;t let her little girls wear sleeveless dresses or blouses.  Gag a maggot.</p>
<p>On the other hand, making the transition from very short short (think Daisy Duke) and tank tops to sleeve-d tops and pants was no big deal for me at all.</p>
<p>As for me and my husband, it takes two seconds to remove garments.  And that is as far as I will go with that.</p>
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		<title>By: Marvin</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/my-only-real-regret/#comment-97655</link>
		<dc:creator>Marvin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2005 00:48:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1704#comment-97655</guid>
		<description>#202 Rosalynde said: [speaking of her sister wearing an immodest gown in the Rose Bowl parade] &quot;and my parents ultimately decided that the benefit of the experience for Rachel personally and the positive exposure she could generate for the church outweighed the immodest gown.&quot;

So, sacrificing one&#039;s values for a brief moment of &quot;fame&quot; is a personal benefit?  I&#039;m not sure I understand that.  And the &quot;positive exposure&quot; for the church is another one that baffles.  Isn&#039;t the message there the same as for her personally: my religion may value modesty, but I&#039;m willing to sacrifice that value for a fleeting moment of fame.  Not sure I&#039;d call that &quot;positive exposure&quot; for the church. [As per Comment Policies, I&#039;m critiquing a position, not a person]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#202 Rosalynde said: [speaking of her sister wearing an immodest gown in the Rose Bowl parade] &#8220;and my parents ultimately decided that the benefit of the experience for Rachel personally and the positive exposure she could generate for the church outweighed the immodest gown.&#8221;</p>
<p>So, sacrificing one&#8217;s values for a brief moment of &#8220;fame&#8221; is a personal benefit?  I&#8217;m not sure I understand that.  And the &#8220;positive exposure&#8221; for the church is another one that baffles.  Isn&#8217;t the message there the same as for her personally: my religion may value modesty, but I&#8217;m willing to sacrifice that value for a fleeting moment of fame.  Not sure I&#8217;d call that &#8220;positive exposure&#8221; for the church. [As per Comment Policies, I'm critiquing a position, not a person]</p>
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		<title>By: Kelly Knight</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/my-only-real-regret/#comment-97623</link>
		<dc:creator>Kelly Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Sep 2005 23:15:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1704#comment-97623</guid>
		<description>One other thought.  I most certainly can not prove it, but according to urban legend, President Kimball is supposed to have said on an occasion regarding modesty that he would rather have the option of imagining what was beneath the clothing than have all questions unwantedly removed.

While I agree that in certain circumstances the garment is not overly appealing, those circumstances are personal and private, and if my wife wants to tease me with the sexy styles of the day, we do so in private.  It certainly is not for the world to see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One other thought.  I most certainly can not prove it, but according to urban legend, President Kimball is supposed to have said on an occasion regarding modesty that he would rather have the option of imagining what was beneath the clothing than have all questions unwantedly removed.</p>
<p>While I agree that in certain circumstances the garment is not overly appealing, those circumstances are personal and private, and if my wife wants to tease me with the sexy styles of the day, we do so in private.  It certainly is not for the world to see.</p>
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		<title>By: Kelly Knight</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/my-only-real-regret/#comment-97622</link>
		<dc:creator>Kelly Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Sep 2005 23:07:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1704#comment-97622</guid>
		<description>Seth- ever lived in Phoenix?  Long pants in the summer is nearly impossible, especially if one works construction, landscaping, or any other outdoor occupation.  Shorts are the only option when one is outdoors in 110 degrees all day.

However, there are shorts that are modest.  Steve and Barry&#039;s has shorts that go well below the knee, and for $6.98 a pair, you can&#039;t beat it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seth- ever lived in Phoenix?  Long pants in the summer is nearly impossible, especially if one works construction, landscaping, or any other outdoor occupation.  Shorts are the only option when one is outdoors in 110 degrees all day.</p>
<p>However, there are shorts that are modest.  Steve and Barry&#8217;s has shorts that go well below the knee, and for $6.98 a pair, you can&#8217;t beat it.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Rogers</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/my-only-real-regret/#comment-97615</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Rogers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:29:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1704#comment-97615</guid>
		<description>Lisa, I wholeheartedly agree with the comment about the tastlessness of Mormon men in shorts advertising to everyone what their underwear choice is. I saw entirely too much of this at BYU.

The problems is, these guys look down at their legs and the shorts go to the knee, even when sitting. They think they&#039;re covered. But anyone who sits across from them has a blatantly clear view &quot;all the way to Spain.&quot;

Personally, I haven&#039;t worn shorts outside of an athletic activity in almost 10 years. Personally, I wish other Mormon men would just go with pants and face the fact that they aren&#039;t in high school anymore. I promise, pants really aren&#039;t that uncomfortable once you aclimatize (even in midsummer).

But that&#039;s just me personally.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lisa, I wholeheartedly agree with the comment about the tastlessness of Mormon men in shorts advertising to everyone what their underwear choice is. I saw entirely too much of this at BYU.</p>
<p>The problems is, these guys look down at their legs and the shorts go to the knee, even when sitting. They think they&#8217;re covered. But anyone who sits across from them has a blatantly clear view &#8220;all the way to Spain.&#8221;</p>
<p>Personally, I haven&#8217;t worn shorts outside of an athletic activity in almost 10 years. Personally, I wish other Mormon men would just go with pants and face the fact that they aren&#8217;t in high school anymore. I promise, pants really aren&#8217;t that uncomfortable once you aclimatize (even in midsummer).</p>
<p>But that&#8217;s just me personally.</p>
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		<title>By: LisaB</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/my-only-real-regret/#comment-97606</link>
		<dc:creator>LisaB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Sep 2005 13:21:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1704#comment-97606</guid>
		<description>I just read through this thread for the first time and since it (the thread) was brought back up, I want to thank Ed Enochs for his (unbeknowst to him) beautiful explanation of how the temple and some of its ordiances and symbols are Christ-centered (#194 &amp; #201--but especially 201).  Nice to be reminded that my garments are a symbol of my having &quot;put on Christ&quot; (Romans 13:14) in a concrete/undeniable manner, and that without Christ, I am spiritually naked and unable to re-enter God&#039;s presence.  Just last week I was given a significant reminder of the priviledge it is to be given garments to wear as a reminder.  I know that doesn&#039;t answer some of the practical questions about how we are to wear them, etc.  But it makes me feel better about making an effort to treat the wearing of them with respect and be more willing to work with the limitations they impose.

I have to disagree with whomever said there&#039;s nothing about garments in the scriptures.  Look up clothe, garment, skin, cover, robe, naked &amp; nakedness, mantle... 

David--Because there are many choices in fabrics and styles, it can take a while to figure out which you will like best/ which will work best for you.  I&#039;ve found the best time to go to Beehive Clothing is during a weekday, when it&#039;s less crowded (at least in the places I&#039;ve lived), rather than in an evening or on a weekend.  But I&#039;ve found those who work at the stores to be very patient and kind, even when there&#039;s a line, when they know it&#039;s your first time.  (Even when they don&#039;t!  And even if it&#039;s crowded!)  I know it&#039;s not always possible to go at a less crowded time, but planning for enough time to not feel rushed about your purchases can help a lot either way.  Getting a good fit and comfortable fabric for you can make the transition to garments easier/ more comfortable. The first time I went, I took time off work to go during a weekday, and got several styles to try before purchasing all the garments I would need.  I know not everyone has that luxury...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just read through this thread for the first time and since it (the thread) was brought back up, I want to thank Ed Enochs for his (unbeknowst to him) beautiful explanation of how the temple and some of its ordiances and symbols are Christ-centered (#194 &#038; #201&#8211;but especially 201).  Nice to be reminded that my garments are a symbol of my having &#8220;put on Christ&#8221; (Romans 13:14) in a concrete/undeniable manner, and that without Christ, I am spiritually naked and unable to re-enter God&#8217;s presence.  Just last week I was given a significant reminder of the priviledge it is to be given garments to wear as a reminder.  I know that doesn&#8217;t answer some of the practical questions about how we are to wear them, etc.  But it makes me feel better about making an effort to treat the wearing of them with respect and be more willing to work with the limitations they impose.</p>
<p>I have to disagree with whomever said there&#8217;s nothing about garments in the scriptures.  Look up clothe, garment, skin, cover, robe, naked &#038; nakedness, mantle&#8230; </p>
<p>David&#8211;Because there are many choices in fabrics and styles, it can take a while to figure out which you will like best/ which will work best for you.  I&#8217;ve found the best time to go to Beehive Clothing is during a weekday, when it&#8217;s less crowded (at least in the places I&#8217;ve lived), rather than in an evening or on a weekend.  But I&#8217;ve found those who work at the stores to be very patient and kind, even when there&#8217;s a line, when they know it&#8217;s your first time.  (Even when they don&#8217;t!  And even if it&#8217;s crowded!)  I know it&#8217;s not always possible to go at a less crowded time, but planning for enough time to not feel rushed about your purchases can help a lot either way.  Getting a good fit and comfortable fabric for you can make the transition to garments easier/ more comfortable. The first time I went, I took time off work to go during a weekday, and got several styles to try before purchasing all the garments I would need.  I know not everyone has that luxury&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Mike B</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/my-only-real-regret/#comment-97589</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Sep 2005 05:14:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1704#comment-97589</guid>
		<description>Steve Evans #87 - &quot;Dude, who cares what the Handbook says. It’s not a document most of us have access to, and its counsel is vague at best for the circumstances you’re describing.&quot;

I haven&#039;t read through the rest of the comments here, so I don&#039;t know if someone else has already responded to this.  General members are not supposed to have access to the handbook, but that doesn&#039;t mean its contents are inapplicable to &quot;general members.&quot;  The handbook is intended to be a guide for priesthood leaders, who are to pass on the counsel contained in the handbook.  Therefore, the counsel on garments contained in the handbook should be the EXACT same counsel your bishop gives you.  Should you care?  That&#039;s up to you, I suppose.  I am convinced, however, that the Spirit won&#039;t be much of a guide to me in my personal decisions if I &quot;don&#039;t care&quot; what my bishop has to say on any given subject (I mean any given subject pertinent to his stewardship over me, for those who want to unnecessarily parse my statement).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve Evans #87 &#8211; &#8220;Dude, who cares what the Handbook says. It’s not a document most of us have access to, and its counsel is vague at best for the circumstances you’re describing.&#8221;</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t read through the rest of the comments here, so I don&#8217;t know if someone else has already responded to this.  General members are not supposed to have access to the handbook, but that doesn&#8217;t mean its contents are inapplicable to &#8220;general members.&#8221;  The handbook is intended to be a guide for priesthood leaders, who are to pass on the counsel contained in the handbook.  Therefore, the counsel on garments contained in the handbook should be the EXACT same counsel your bishop gives you.  Should you care?  That&#8217;s up to you, I suppose.  I am convinced, however, that the Spirit won&#8217;t be much of a guide to me in my personal decisions if I &#8220;don&#8217;t care&#8221; what my bishop has to say on any given subject (I mean any given subject pertinent to his stewardship over me, for those who want to unnecessarily parse my statement).</p>
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