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	<title>Comments on: Boundary Maintenance and the &#8220;Modest&#8221; Mormon</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/boundary-maintenance-the-modest-mormon/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Charles</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/boundary-maintenance-the-modest-mormon/#comment-32468</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Dec 2004 16:54:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1703#comment-32468</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure how modesty alone could really become that kind of border that people would use to define us. Think of showing up for a social engagement. Everyone is drinking and you are offered a drink, you refuse &quot;no thanks, its against my religion&quot;. Would this really be taken the same way for wearing short shorts and halter tops? Even if a hard line for modest dress could be developed, say temple garments as a guideline,  it wouldn&#039;t have the same impact as social trends fluctuate. 

Of course I would be very pleased if the world around us became less polarized to opposing views that we hold.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure how modesty alone could really become that kind of border that people would use to define us. Think of showing up for a social engagement. Everyone is drinking and you are offered a drink, you refuse &#8220;no thanks, its against my religion&#8221;. Would this really be taken the same way for wearing short shorts and halter tops? Even if a hard line for modest dress could be developed, say temple garments as a guideline,  it wouldn&#8217;t have the same impact as social trends fluctuate. </p>
<p>Of course I would be very pleased if the world around us became less polarized to opposing views that we hold.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Briggs</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/boundary-maintenance-the-modest-mormon/#comment-32437</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Briggs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Dec 2004 10:10:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1703#comment-32437</guid>
		<description>&quot;The Word of Wisdom became mandatory about the time the Temperance Movement got Prohibition passed.&quot;

Adam, I&#039;m embarrassed to say that I&#039;d never made that connection. But I think you may be right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The Word of Wisdom became mandatory about the time the Temperance Movement got Prohibition passed.&#8221;</p>
<p>Adam, I&#8217;m embarrassed to say that I&#8217;d never made that connection. But I think you may be right.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/boundary-maintenance-the-modest-mormon/#comment-32367</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Dec 2004 00:09:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1703#comment-32367</guid>
		<description>It seems to me that modesty has always been a hotbed of conversation and that at least in the Utah period the garments did provide a bit of a demarcation.  (Although to be honest, even those old school garments weren&#039;t that different from the underwear typically worn at the time, from what I&#039;ve seen)

Anyway, for a hoot, go read Gospel Principles by Joseph F. Smith and listen to the evils of displaying calves of women.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that modesty has always been a hotbed of conversation and that at least in the Utah period the garments did provide a bit of a demarcation.  (Although to be honest, even those old school garments weren&#8217;t that different from the underwear typically worn at the time, from what I&#8217;ve seen)</p>
<p>Anyway, for a hoot, go read Gospel Principles by Joseph F. Smith and listen to the evils of displaying calves of women.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark N.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/boundary-maintenance-the-modest-mormon/#comment-32355</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark N.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Dec 2004 23:42:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1703#comment-32355</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Bryce: Also consider the problem of eveningwear.&lt;/i&gt;Just the mention of the word &quot;garments&quot; in conjunction with the word &quot;eveningwear&quot; brings to mind a funny TV commercial from some years back where the middle-aged, portly Eastern European/Russian woman models different styles of clothing which all look remarkably alike for the Workers&#039; Paradise (&quot;Eveningvare... Dayvare...&quot;).  I don&#039;t even remember what product was being advertised in those commercials (I have the sneaking suspicion that it was a fast food commercial), but I sadly have to admit that in my own warped and married mind, the comparison with women&#039;s garments somehow almost seems apt.  ;-)

My wife has wondered out loud on several occasions how the early latter-day saints managed to have as many children as they did, given the -- um -- &lt;i&gt;attractiveness&lt;/i&gt; of the womens&#039; garment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Bryce: Also consider the problem of eveningwear.</i>Just the mention of the word &#8220;garments&#8221; in conjunction with the word &#8220;eveningwear&#8221; brings to mind a funny TV commercial from some years back where the middle-aged, portly Eastern European/Russian woman models different styles of clothing which all look remarkably alike for the Workers&#8217; Paradise (&#8220;Eveningvare&#8230; Dayvare&#8230;&#8221;).  I don&#8217;t even remember what product was being advertised in those commercials (I have the sneaking suspicion that it was a fast food commercial), but I sadly have to admit that in my own warped and married mind, the comparison with women&#8217;s garments somehow almost seems apt.  ;-)</p>
<p>My wife has wondered out loud on several occasions how the early latter-day saints managed to have as many children as they did, given the &#8212; um &#8212; <i>attractiveness</i> of the womens&#8217; garment.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/boundary-maintenance-the-modest-mormon/#comment-32326</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Dec 2004 22:08:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1703#comment-32326</guid>
		<description>Modesty just may do it.  Temple garments kinda tend to bring the natural boundary creep to a screeching halt.

Modestly is like other boundaries, though, in that it works better at separating ourselves out from the general culture then it does at separating us from conservative evangelicals and Catholics.  Sabbath observance, marrying young and having kids, and even modesty, are all only partial barriers with respect to these groups.  They simultaneously separate us out from the mass but align us with other separatist elements within the mass.

The Word of Wisdom frankly is a bit the same way.  Preachers were railing for years about Demon Rum before we got firm about him.  The Word of Wisdom became mandatory about the time the Temperance Movement got Prohibition passed.

There were some unique features that did distinguish us, of course, viz. the prohibitions against tobacco and coffee and tea, especially the latter two.  I still get pretty weird looks for the latter or the instantaneous, oh, you must be Mormon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Modesty just may do it.  Temple garments kinda tend to bring the natural boundary creep to a screeching halt.</p>
<p>Modestly is like other boundaries, though, in that it works better at separating ourselves out from the general culture then it does at separating us from conservative evangelicals and Catholics.  Sabbath observance, marrying young and having kids, and even modesty, are all only partial barriers with respect to these groups.  They simultaneously separate us out from the mass but align us with other separatist elements within the mass.</p>
<p>The Word of Wisdom frankly is a bit the same way.  Preachers were railing for years about Demon Rum before we got firm about him.  The Word of Wisdom became mandatory about the time the Temperance Movement got Prohibition passed.</p>
<p>There were some unique features that did distinguish us, of course, viz. the prohibitions against tobacco and coffee and tea, especially the latter two.  I still get pretty weird looks for the latter or the instantaneous, oh, you must be Mormon.</p>
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		<title>By: David King Landrith</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/boundary-maintenance-the-modest-mormon/#comment-32321</link>
		<dc:creator>David King Landrith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Dec 2004 21:53:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1703#comment-32321</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;b&gt;Bryce I&lt;/b&gt; &lt;i&gt;Also consider the problem of eveningwear. I can’t think of a single instance in which I’ve seen an evening gown that would be suitable for garment-wearers on a non-Mormon.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;You make a very good point here. I hadn&#039;t thought of formal gear for chicks. Even the relatively modest gowns don&#039;t cover garments.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Bryce I</b> <i>Also consider the problem of eveningwear. I can’t think of a single instance in which I’ve seen an evening gown that would be suitable for garment-wearers on a non-Mormon.</i></p>
<p>You make a very good point here. I hadn&#8217;t thought of formal gear for chicks. Even the relatively modest gowns don&#8217;t cover garments.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryce I</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/boundary-maintenance-the-modest-mormon/#comment-32315</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryce I</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Dec 2004 21:38:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1703#comment-32315</guid>
		<description>DKL--

I don&#039;t know where you live, but I&#039;m guessing it&#039;s in the northern latitudes.  Non-endowed women wear considerably less clothing at all ages in the summertime down here.

Also consider the problem of eveningwear.  I can&#039;t think of a single instance in which I&#039;ve seen an evening gown that would be suitable for garment-wearers on a non-Mormon.


Kaimi--

As for slutwear, didn&#039;t you hear?  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.calgarysun.com/perl-bin/niveau2.cgi?s=Lifestyles&amp;p=88427.html&amp;a=1&quot;&gt;Modesty is the new black&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DKL&#8211;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know where you live, but I&#8217;m guessing it&#8217;s in the northern latitudes.  Non-endowed women wear considerably less clothing at all ages in the summertime down here.</p>
<p>Also consider the problem of eveningwear.  I can&#8217;t think of a single instance in which I&#8217;ve seen an evening gown that would be suitable for garment-wearers on a non-Mormon.</p>
<p>Kaimi&#8211;</p>
<p>As for slutwear, didn&#8217;t you hear?  <a href="http://www.calgarysun.com/perl-bin/niveau2.cgi?s=Lifestyles&#038;p=88427.html&#038;a=1">Modesty is the new black</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/boundary-maintenance-the-modest-mormon/#comment-32309</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Dec 2004 21:03:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1703#comment-32309</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know enough about the details in the history of polygamy in the church, and admittedly I don&#039;t have a huge interest in it. But I don&#039;t recall being polygamous a requirement for all saints. Polygamy was accepted for those who were worthy, but I&#039;m not aware of it being a saving ordinance. I could be wrong but to me this wo uld show Shipps&#039; argument for polygamy being a boundary as invalid. A religious boundary should be something that is required of all those clinging to a faith when other faiths in general do not. 

Also, this does not have to be an obvious thing. Biblically speaking circumcision was such a boundary. But you wouldn&#039;t know who was or was not participating by them walking down the street. 

If we assume as the Post asks us to that polygamy was such a boundary and is now replaced by the WoW, we can consider what things may replace the WoW. I would imagine that as temples become more abundant in all corners of the world where the saints have gathered that temple attendance and recommend worthiness would be the next logical step. 

This may incorporate the WoW but will extend to circumstances of modest dress AND action. Yes modesty is more than just physical appearance. It would also include p0rnography, honesty, adherence to existing covenants and personal testimonies. These would be inward boundaries that LDS saints would know separates them from the world and the external boundaries would be seen by the world only by those who know LDS do or don&#039;t adhere to such things. 

In my example there are a few things that are don&#039;ts but I would also say that boundaries would be inclusive of the things we DO as well. This could lead to religious affirmation in a world that is becoming increasingly secular. LDS may be asked to publicly and vocally proclaim the gospel when the world around us wants us to keep silent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know enough about the details in the history of polygamy in the church, and admittedly I don&#8217;t have a huge interest in it. But I don&#8217;t recall being polygamous a requirement for all saints. Polygamy was accepted for those who were worthy, but I&#8217;m not aware of it being a saving ordinance. I could be wrong but to me this wo uld show Shipps&#8217; argument for polygamy being a boundary as invalid. A religious boundary should be something that is required of all those clinging to a faith when other faiths in general do not. </p>
<p>Also, this does not have to be an obvious thing. Biblically speaking circumcision was such a boundary. But you wouldn&#8217;t know who was or was not participating by them walking down the street. </p>
<p>If we assume as the Post asks us to that polygamy was such a boundary and is now replaced by the WoW, we can consider what things may replace the WoW. I would imagine that as temples become more abundant in all corners of the world where the saints have gathered that temple attendance and recommend worthiness would be the next logical step. </p>
<p>This may incorporate the WoW but will extend to circumstances of modest dress AND action. Yes modesty is more than just physical appearance. It would also include p0rnography, honesty, adherence to existing covenants and personal testimonies. These would be inward boundaries that LDS saints would know separates them from the world and the external boundaries would be seen by the world only by those who know LDS do or don&#8217;t adhere to such things. </p>
<p>In my example there are a few things that are don&#8217;ts but I would also say that boundaries would be inclusive of the things we DO as well. This could lead to religious affirmation in a world that is becoming increasingly secular. LDS may be asked to publicly and vocally proclaim the gospel when the world around us wants us to keep silent.</p>
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		<title>By: a random John</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/boundary-maintenance-the-modest-mormon/#comment-32308</link>
		<dc:creator>a random John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Dec 2004 20:58:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1703#comment-32308</guid>
		<description>The boundary line will be however long my beard is.  Any longer than that is immodest!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The boundary line will be however long my beard is.  Any longer than that is immodest!</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremiah J.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/12/boundary-maintenance-the-modest-mormon/#comment-32300</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremiah J.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Dec 2004 20:42:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1703#comment-32300</guid>
		<description>One should distinguish between boundary as a social scientific category and a theological or religious one.  Shipps seems to use boundary in the former sense for the most part, since she is describing how a religious community distinguishes between the community of faith and the outside.  This category is standard in sociology of religion, especially the work on fundamentalism, where boundary of the &#039;enclave&#039; has a central role.  

Theologically the term takes on a different meaning.  We talk about boundaries of appetites and desires, which the Lord has set.  These may be more or less visible and may or may not constitute a social boundary.  We also talk about distinguishing marks on God&#039;s people, but these also are not the same as boundaries in the social scientific sense, since God&#039;s purpose in making his people distinctive and special is not (or not only) cohesion of the community, preventing &#039;free-riding&#039;, etc., but indeed saving the whole world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One should distinguish between boundary as a social scientific category and a theological or religious one.  Shipps seems to use boundary in the former sense for the most part, since she is describing how a religious community distinguishes between the community of faith and the outside.  This category is standard in sociology of religion, especially the work on fundamentalism, where boundary of the &#8216;enclave&#8217; has a central role.  </p>
<p>Theologically the term takes on a different meaning.  We talk about boundaries of appetites and desires, which the Lord has set.  These may be more or less visible and may or may not constitute a social boundary.  We also talk about distinguishing marks on God&#8217;s people, but these also are not the same as boundaries in the social scientific sense, since God&#8217;s purpose in making his people distinctive and special is not (or not only) cohesion of the community, preventing &#8216;free-riding&#8217;, etc., but indeed saving the whole world.</p>
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