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	<title>Comments on: Mormonism and the Commercial Virtues</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/11/mormonism-and-the-commercial-virtues/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Ethesis (Stephen M)</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/11/mormonism-and-the-commercial-virtues/#comment-28715</link>
		<dc:creator>Ethesis (Stephen M)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Nov 2004 00:37:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1583#comment-28715</guid>
		<description>http://www.erinoconnor.org/archives/001046.html

&lt;i&gt;And not about money. Damn money. I can make all the money we will need; certainly there seems to be no limit to what I can invent on the theme of female sex troubles. I don&#039;t mean that, nor Utah either. I mean us. Love, if you will. Because it can&#039;t last. There is no place for it in the world today, not even in Utah. We have eliminated it. It took us a long time, but man is resourceful and limitless in inventing too, and so we have got rid of love as last just as we have got rid of Christ.&lt;/i&gt;

&quot;There is no place for it in the world today, not even in Utah.&quot; -- interesting comment on non-commercial values.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.erinoconnor.org/archives/001046.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.erinoconnor.org/archives/001046.html</a></p>
<p><i>And not about money. Damn money. I can make all the money we will need; certainly there seems to be no limit to what I can invent on the theme of female sex troubles. I don&#8217;t mean that, nor Utah either. I mean us. Love, if you will. Because it can&#8217;t last. There is no place for it in the world today, not even in Utah. We have eliminated it. It took us a long time, but man is resourceful and limitless in inventing too, and so we have got rid of love as last just as we have got rid of Christ.</i></p>
<p>&#8220;There is no place for it in the world today, not even in Utah.&#8221; &#8212; interesting comment on non-commercial values.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/11/mormonism-and-the-commercial-virtues/#comment-28481</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Nov 2004 04:58:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1583#comment-28481</guid>
		<description>&quot;But why limit the discussion of these virtues to merchants amd commercialism?&quot;

I think Nate may be suggesting that all too often the merchant is exluded from the &quot;virtues&quot; club. It goes without saying that the above mentioned virtues may be found in all worthy endeavors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But why limit the discussion of these virtues to merchants amd commercialism?&#8221;</p>
<p>I think Nate may be suggesting that all too often the merchant is exluded from the &#8220;virtues&#8221; club. It goes without saying that the above mentioned virtues may be found in all worthy endeavors.</p>
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		<title>By: c cobb</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/11/mormonism-and-the-commercial-virtues/#comment-28474</link>
		<dc:creator>c cobb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Nov 2004 01:36:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1583#comment-28474</guid>
		<description>Hmm. The &quot;pedestrian virtues of merchants are honesty, diligence, skill, and collegiality&quot; and &quot;donâ€™t forget integrity.&quot;

But why limit the discussion of these virtues to merchants amd commercialism? It seems to me these pedestrian virtues apply to almost any endeavor (warriors included) and do not signify some moral superiority to mercantilism per se. A vow of poverty can exhibit the same virtues, as can driving a race car or dancing on Broadway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm. The &#8220;pedestrian virtues of merchants are honesty, diligence, skill, and collegiality&#8221; and &#8220;donâ€™t forget integrity.&#8221;</p>
<p>But why limit the discussion of these virtues to merchants amd commercialism? It seems to me these pedestrian virtues apply to almost any endeavor (warriors included) and do not signify some moral superiority to mercantilism per se. A vow of poverty can exhibit the same virtues, as can driving a race car or dancing on Broadway.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/11/mormonism-and-the-commercial-virtues/#comment-28472</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Stapley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:27:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1583#comment-28472</guid>
		<description>This kind of reminds me of danithew&#039;s post on the ambivalence of Christ (at once both terrible and tender).  Nate, if the merchant ethos is good and admirable, why is it not part of the great gospel ethos?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This kind of reminds me of danithew&#8217;s post on the ambivalence of Christ (at once both terrible and tender).  Nate, if the merchant ethos is good and admirable, why is it not part of the great gospel ethos?</p>
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		<title>By: Joel D.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/11/mormonism-and-the-commercial-virtues/#comment-28463</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:42:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1583#comment-28463</guid>
		<description>But doesn&#039;t the merchant &quot;ethos&quot; carry a lot more with it than simply certain &quot;virtues&quot; (used here as &quot;intrinsically good attribute&quot;)?  Doesn&#039;t the merchant &quot;ethos&quot; also include things like fast-talking, flattery, and a focus on the bottom line?  Do you value the merchant &quot;ethos&quot;, with all its baggage, or the &quot;virtues&quot; that are part of the &quot;ethos&quot;?  If only the latter, then it seems the connection to the Gospel ethos are the very virtues themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But doesn&#8217;t the merchant &#8220;ethos&#8221; carry a lot more with it than simply certain &#8220;virtues&#8221; (used here as &#8220;intrinsically good attribute&#8221;)?  Doesn&#8217;t the merchant &#8220;ethos&#8221; also include things like fast-talking, flattery, and a focus on the bottom line?  Do you value the merchant &#8220;ethos&#8221;, with all its baggage, or the &#8220;virtues&#8221; that are part of the &#8220;ethos&#8221;?  If only the latter, then it seems the connection to the Gospel ethos are the very virtues themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/11/mormonism-and-the-commercial-virtues/#comment-28461</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:22:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1583#comment-28461</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know a great deal about the linguistic origin of the word &quot;virtue,&quot; although I do know that it is Latin.  However, I am using virtue in my post in a fairly specific way. A greek word might clarify: arete.  (as in aretaic or aristocracy) means simply excellence.  When I say that there are warrior virtues what I mean is that there are certain attributes that are associated with an excellent warrior.  (The same for saints, prophets and merchants.)  The statement is not merely descriptive, but teleological, it implies that the perfection of being a warrior (or merchant or what have you) necessarily requires the cultivation of certain attributes.

Now I am being intentionally vague about the meta-ethics.  It may be that we think that all ethics ought to be thought of in terms of virtues.  (I actually think that this is Ben Huff&#039;s particular academic schtick and provided that I am not utterly mangling the philosophical concepts, I would be interested in what he has to say.)  On this view, to be ethical is to cultivate the attributes associated with human excellence and perfection.  I don&#039;t know what role the perfection of something other than humanity operates as a good meta-ethical point of departure.  However, I do think that something like Warrior Virtues hang together in a coherent normative way that is more than simply descriptive.  They form an ethos.  The same is true of merchants, I would suggest.  My invocation of the language of virtue was meant to convey two important points: (1) I admire and value the mercantile ethos; and, (2) I recognize it as a seperate ethos whose connection to the the Gospel (or the ethos of the Gospel, or perhaps ethoi of the Gospel) is unclear to me.

There, doesn&#039;t that make everything easier?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know a great deal about the linguistic origin of the word &#8220;virtue,&#8221; although I do know that it is Latin.  However, I am using virtue in my post in a fairly specific way. A greek word might clarify: arete.  (as in aretaic or aristocracy) means simply excellence.  When I say that there are warrior virtues what I mean is that there are certain attributes that are associated with an excellent warrior.  (The same for saints, prophets and merchants.)  The statement is not merely descriptive, but teleological, it implies that the perfection of being a warrior (or merchant or what have you) necessarily requires the cultivation of certain attributes.</p>
<p>Now I am being intentionally vague about the meta-ethics.  It may be that we think that all ethics ought to be thought of in terms of virtues.  (I actually think that this is Ben Huff&#8217;s particular academic schtick and provided that I am not utterly mangling the philosophical concepts, I would be interested in what he has to say.)  On this view, to be ethical is to cultivate the attributes associated with human excellence and perfection.  I don&#8217;t know what role the perfection of something other than humanity operates as a good meta-ethical point of departure.  However, I do think that something like Warrior Virtues hang together in a coherent normative way that is more than simply descriptive.  They form an ethos.  The same is true of merchants, I would suggest.  My invocation of the language of virtue was meant to convey two important points: (1) I admire and value the mercantile ethos; and, (2) I recognize it as a seperate ethos whose connection to the the Gospel (or the ethos of the Gospel, or perhaps ethoi of the Gospel) is unclear to me.</p>
<p>There, doesn&#8217;t that make everything easier?</p>
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		<title>By: Joel D.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/11/mormonism-and-the-commercial-virtues/#comment-28451</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:00:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1583#comment-28451</guid>
		<description>Nice--real men have bad tempers.

It doesn&#039;t seem to me that the semantic origin of &quot;virtue&quot; supports ruthlessness or cruelty as being real &quot;virtues.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice&#8211;real men have bad tempers.</p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t seem to me that the semantic origin of &#8220;virtue&#8221; supports ruthlessness or cruelty as being real &#8220;virtues.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/11/mormonism-and-the-commercial-virtues/#comment-28450</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:57:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1583#comment-28450</guid>
		<description>Hear, hear, Nate Oman.
I dislike anti-capitalist screeds because they seem to devalue the quality and value of ordinary work in the marketplace.  To say nothing of the vigor and courage that entrepeneurs must show.

My least favorite workplaces have always been the one&#039;s where the employees were the most critical of their own status.  In a self-fulfilling way all the joy got sucked out the environment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hear, hear, Nate Oman.<br />
I dislike anti-capitalist screeds because they seem to devalue the quality and value of ordinary work in the marketplace.  To say nothing of the vigor and courage that entrepeneurs must show.</p>
<p>My least favorite workplaces have always been the one&#8217;s where the employees were the most critical of their own status.  In a self-fulfilling way all the joy got sucked out the environment.</p>
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		<title>By: ed</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/11/mormonism-and-the-commercial-virtues/#comment-28449</link>
		<dc:creator>ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:55:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1583#comment-28449</guid>
		<description>&quot;The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies and chase them before you, to rob
them of their wealth and see those dear to them bathed in tears, to ride their horses and clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters.&quot;

- attributed to Genghis Kahn</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies and chase them before you, to rob<br />
them of their wealth and see those dear to them bathed in tears, to ride their horses and clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters.&#8221;</p>
<p>- attributed to Genghis Kahn</p>
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		<title>By: quinn</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/11/mormonism-and-the-commercial-virtues/#comment-28442</link>
		<dc:creator>quinn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:22:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1583#comment-28442</guid>
		<description>let&#039;s not forget where the word virtue comes from, since semantics and whatnot have already been mentioned, virtus, which meant manliness and other attributes relating to men. so where does that leave women, and really where does that leave virtue. so perhaps &quot;Achillesâ€™ overdeveloped temper&quot; is a virtue. but either way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>let&#8217;s not forget where the word virtue comes from, since semantics and whatnot have already been mentioned, virtus, which meant manliness and other attributes relating to men. so where does that leave women, and really where does that leave virtue. so perhaps &#8220;Achillesâ€™ overdeveloped temper&#8221; is a virtue. but either way.</p>
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