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	<title>Comments on: On the left: pioneer ancestors and the International Church</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/10/on-the-left-pioneer-ancestors-and-the-international-church/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Jay Michael Linford</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/10/on-the-left-pioneer-ancestors-and-the-international-church/#comment-26785</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Michael Linford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:13:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1492#comment-26785</guid>
		<description>My grand-father (who was raised by his grand-parents who were among the poor pioneer children that left England in 1856 with Willie &amp; Co.) was fond of saying he had five sons and a republican.  My father was that republican and, as far as I know, his brothers remain to this day democrats.

As my own political consciousness evolved I became aware that our world has more than two facets.  I consider myself a CENTRIST.  Doubtless you&#039;ve never heard of the CENTRIST party but, perhaps, someday you will.  Until a viable option exists, it seems to me that backing the party with social values closest to mine (Republican) is the best use of my political energies.

What I really wonder is, why do Mormons who run for high political office ignore the &quot;Mormon Mafia&quot; rather than engage it to their benefit?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My grand-father (who was raised by his grand-parents who were among the poor pioneer children that left England in 1856 with Willie &#038; Co.) was fond of saying he had five sons and a republican.  My father was that republican and, as far as I know, his brothers remain to this day democrats.</p>
<p>As my own political consciousness evolved I became aware that our world has more than two facets.  I consider myself a CENTRIST.  Doubtless you&#8217;ve never heard of the CENTRIST party but, perhaps, someday you will.  Until a viable option exists, it seems to me that backing the party with social values closest to mine (Republican) is the best use of my political energies.</p>
<p>What I really wonder is, why do Mormons who run for high political office ignore the &#8220;Mormon Mafia&#8221; rather than engage it to their benefit?</p>
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		<title>By: Bryce I</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/10/on-the-left-pioneer-ancestors-and-the-international-church/#comment-26254</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryce I</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Oct 2004 03:07:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1492#comment-26254</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s Wifried&#039;s suggested Google search &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.google.com/search?q=Helsinki+%2B+Religious+Freedom+and+Tolerance&amp;start=0&amp;start=0&quot;&gt;in convenient link form&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s Wifried&#8217;s suggested Google search <a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=Helsinki+%2B+Religious+Freedom+and+Tolerance&#038;start=0&#038;start=0">in convenient link form</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Wilfried</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/10/on-the-left-pioneer-ancestors-and-the-international-church/#comment-26179</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilfried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2004 21:53:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1492#comment-26179</guid>
		<description>Ron draws our attention to the situation in Belarus. While Russia, thanks to Pres. Clinton (interesting story) and others, suspended its intentions to curtail foreign religions, other former USSR-states have implemented laws to stop the invasion of &quot;sects&quot; that &quot;threaten&quot; their cultural &amp; religious traditions.

It shocks us in terms of lack of freedom, but it should also be seen in the light of their internal struggle to recoup their religious past &amp; identity after the fall of Communism. As they see it: the Orthodox Church can finally regain some of its territory after decades of persecution. And suddenly these foreigners arrive with big money and means to steal away the souls of their flock...

On the other hand, it is a part of a much more complex spectrum of fundamental liberties.
See the US report
http://usinfo.state.gov/dhr/Archive/2004/Sep/15-901347.html

Also interesting are the Helsinki reports. Search Google with 
Helsinki + Religious Freedom and Tolerance</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ron draws our attention to the situation in Belarus. While Russia, thanks to Pres. Clinton (interesting story) and others, suspended its intentions to curtail foreign religions, other former USSR-states have implemented laws to stop the invasion of &#8220;sects&#8221; that &#8220;threaten&#8221; their cultural &#038; religious traditions.</p>
<p>It shocks us in terms of lack of freedom, but it should also be seen in the light of their internal struggle to recoup their religious past &#038; identity after the fall of Communism. As they see it: the Orthodox Church can finally regain some of its territory after decades of persecution. And suddenly these foreigners arrive with big money and means to steal away the souls of their flock&#8230;</p>
<p>On the other hand, it is a part of a much more complex spectrum of fundamental liberties.<br />
See the US report<br />
<a href="http://usinfo.state.gov/dhr/Archive/2004/Sep/15-901347.html" rel="nofollow">http://usinfo.state.gov/dhr/Archive/2004/Sep/15-901347.html</a></p>
<p>Also interesting are the Helsinki reports. Search Google with<br />
Helsinki + Religious Freedom and Tolerance</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/10/on-the-left-pioneer-ancestors-and-the-international-church/#comment-26169</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:59:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1492#comment-26169</guid>
		<description>As long as we&#039;re looking at International LDS Issues, has anyone else seen the news today that &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.religionnewsblog.com/9104-Belarus_expels_two_Mormons_for___illegal_missionary_activity__.html&quot;&gt;Belarus expels two Mormons for &#039;&#039;illegal missionary activity&#039;&#039;&lt;/a&gt;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As long as we&#8217;re looking at International LDS Issues, has anyone else seen the news today that <a href="http://www.religionnewsblog.com/9104-Belarus_expels_two_Mormons_for___illegal_missionary_activity__.html">Belarus expels two Mormons for &#8221;illegal missionary activity&#8221;</a>?</p>
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		<title>By: cje</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/10/on-the-left-pioneer-ancestors-and-the-international-church/#comment-26166</link>
		<dc:creator>cje</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1492#comment-26166</guid>
		<description>Growing up in the UK I remember hearing from my dad that you couldn&#039;t be a good Mormon unless you belonged to the Conservative party (Thatcher/Majors and all that).  Growing up I always considered myself a big supporter of Thatcherism--until I went on my mission and read King Benjamins address in the BoM--now my dad just cannot believe that it was the my mission and reading the BoM that turned me to the dark side.  I&#039;m a lefty all the way.

However, the Conservative&#039;s in the UK are still pretty liberal when compared to Republicans here.

cje</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Growing up in the UK I remember hearing from my dad that you couldn&#8217;t be a good Mormon unless you belonged to the Conservative party (Thatcher/Majors and all that).  Growing up I always considered myself a big supporter of Thatcherism&#8211;until I went on my mission and read King Benjamins address in the BoM&#8211;now my dad just cannot believe that it was the my mission and reading the BoM that turned me to the dark side.  I&#8217;m a lefty all the way.</p>
<p>However, the Conservative&#8217;s in the UK are still pretty liberal when compared to Republicans here.</p>
<p>cje</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/10/on-the-left-pioneer-ancestors-and-the-international-church/#comment-26155</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:38:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1492#comment-26155</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;We expect better things from you when the election is over and you become (slighly) less apocalyptic.&lt;/i&gt;

After dusk settles over America, I&#039;m gonna need some humor in a serious way!

In the meantime, I was praying about my Presidential electoral choices this time and my heart turned towards my left-leaning fathers long enough to consider &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.politics1.com/socialist04.htm&quot;&gt;Walt Brown&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sp-usa.org/&quot;&gt;Socialist Party-USA &lt;/a&gt;for President.

Workers of the World Unite... for Zion!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>We expect better things from you when the election is over and you become (slighly) less apocalyptic.</i></p>
<p>After dusk settles over America, I&#8217;m gonna need some humor in a serious way!</p>
<p>In the meantime, I was praying about my Presidential electoral choices this time and my heart turned towards my left-leaning fathers long enough to consider <a href="http://www.politics1.com/socialist04.htm">Walt Brown</a>, <a href="http://www.sp-usa.org/">Socialist Party-USA </a>for President.</p>
<p>Workers of the World Unite&#8230; for Zion!</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/10/on-the-left-pioneer-ancestors-and-the-international-church/#comment-26141</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:01:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1492#comment-26141</guid>
		<description>Rob wrote: &quot;I know Iâ€™ve contributed more on the lines of raw nerves than tickled funny bones in my comments here.&quot;

We expect better things from you when the election is over and you become (slighly) less apocalyptic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob wrote: &#8220;I know Iâ€™ve contributed more on the lines of raw nerves than tickled funny bones in my comments here.&#8221;</p>
<p>We expect better things from you when the election is over and you become (slighly) less apocalyptic.</p>
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		<title>By: Wilfried</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/10/on-the-left-pioneer-ancestors-and-the-international-church/#comment-26096</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilfried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:57:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1492#comment-26096</guid>
		<description>Thank you, Jonathan and others. BYU campus seems pretty quiet now since you all left.

Who would know more about the Red Patriarch?

About the French: at the 2002 CESNUR International Conference 
http://www.cesnur.org/2002/slc/art_02.htm
a French scholar discussed the relation of French Mormons with their &quot;American church&quot;.

I quote from the report:

&quot;Bernadette Rigal-Cellard of the UniversitÃ© Michel de Montaigne-Bordeaux surveyed French members of the LDS Church to ask how they relate to a church with so many American qualities when the French people have a predisposed distaste for American culture.

A majority of the respondents were not bothered at all by the special place America held in God&#039;s design in Mormonism,&quot; she said. &quot;Most French LDS refuse to be seen as belonging to an American church and they still have the same love-hate relationship with America as do other French.&quot;

Still, Rigal-Cellard said the 50 or so French members of the LDS Church she surveyed â€¦ noted distinctly American cultural identity markers to their faith. Those markers ranged from cookies and free English lessons offered by Mormon missionaries to the &quot;very un-French&quot; tendencies of super-patriotism and public testimony of religious beliefs.

As the numbers of non-American converts to Mormonism continue to eclipse U.S. converts, Rigal-Cellard said French Mormons believe the &quot;Made In the U.S.A.&quot; label of Mormonism will fade. &quot;One French LDS missionary told me the myth of the Mormons as an American church will soon be forgotten because the Mormon Church will be no more American than the Catholic Church is Roman,&quot; she said. &quot;I thought that a bit short-sighted since, while we in France call it just the Catholic Church, everywhere else it is still known as the Roman Catholic Church.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Jonathan and others. BYU campus seems pretty quiet now since you all left.</p>
<p>Who would know more about the Red Patriarch?</p>
<p>About the French: at the 2002 CESNUR International Conference<br />
<a href="http://www.cesnur.org/2002/slc/art_02.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.cesnur.org/2002/slc/art_02.htm</a><br />
a French scholar discussed the relation of French Mormons with their &#8220;American church&#8221;.</p>
<p>I quote from the report:</p>
<p>&#8220;Bernadette Rigal-Cellard of the UniversitÃ© Michel de Montaigne-Bordeaux surveyed French members of the LDS Church to ask how they relate to a church with so many American qualities when the French people have a predisposed distaste for American culture.</p>
<p>A majority of the respondents were not bothered at all by the special place America held in God&#8217;s design in Mormonism,&#8221; she said. &#8220;Most French LDS refuse to be seen as belonging to an American church and they still have the same love-hate relationship with America as do other French.&#8221;</p>
<p>Still, Rigal-Cellard said the 50 or so French members of the LDS Church she surveyed â€¦ noted distinctly American cultural identity markers to their faith. Those markers ranged from cookies and free English lessons offered by Mormon missionaries to the &#8220;very un-French&#8221; tendencies of super-patriotism and public testimony of religious beliefs.</p>
<p>As the numbers of non-American converts to Mormonism continue to eclipse U.S. converts, Rigal-Cellard said French Mormons believe the &#8220;Made In the U.S.A.&#8221; label of Mormonism will fade. &#8220;One French LDS missionary told me the myth of the Mormons as an American church will soon be forgotten because the Mormon Church will be no more American than the Catholic Church is Roman,&#8221; she said. &#8220;I thought that a bit short-sighted since, while we in France call it just the Catholic Church, everywhere else it is still known as the Roman Catholic Church.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Green</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/10/on-the-left-pioneer-ancestors-and-the-international-church/#comment-26091</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:41:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1492#comment-26091</guid>
		<description>One of those Student Review death blows was probably my lukewarm tenure as Opinions editor in that period. Sorry about that. Still, I&#039;m quite proud of my &quot;support groups for families of missionaries called to US missions&quot; satire article. I wish I still had a copy of it.

Speaking of left LDS politicians, there was a so-called &quot;Red Patriarch&quot; in East Germany, I believe in the 60&#039;s and 70&#039;s, who apparently held positions in both the church and the regional government. I would tell you his name, but I only learned about it while flaming out spectacularly in an on-stage New Years Eve party trivia contest, where I also showed my whole ward that I didn&#039;t know who wrote &quot;I hope they call me on a mission,&quot; couldn&#039;t identify the most popular German film of all time from quotes, can&#039;t be funny in a foreign language after 11 PM, and can&#039;t sink a layup with a basketball.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of those Student Review death blows was probably my lukewarm tenure as Opinions editor in that period. Sorry about that. Still, I&#8217;m quite proud of my &#8220;support groups for families of missionaries called to US missions&#8221; satire article. I wish I still had a copy of it.</p>
<p>Speaking of left LDS politicians, there was a so-called &#8220;Red Patriarch&#8221; in East Germany, I believe in the 60&#8242;s and 70&#8242;s, who apparently held positions in both the church and the regional government. I would tell you his name, but I only learned about it while flaming out spectacularly in an on-stage New Years Eve party trivia contest, where I also showed my whole ward that I didn&#8217;t know who wrote &#8220;I hope they call me on a mission,&#8221; couldn&#8217;t identify the most popular German film of all time from quotes, can&#8217;t be funny in a foreign language after 11 PM, and can&#8217;t sink a layup with a basketball.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell Arben Fox</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/10/on-the-left-pioneer-ancestors-and-the-international-church/#comment-26070</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell Arben Fox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2004 03:33:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=1492#comment-26070</guid>
		<description>Ah, the Mormon Peace Gathering. I&#039;ve meant to blog on that at some point. Thought I&#039;d need your help, Rob, to do it right; Melissa and I went the year after you guys did, and it was mainly at your urging that we participated at all. A great experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, the Mormon Peace Gathering. I&#8217;ve meant to blog on that at some point. Thought I&#8217;d need your help, Rob, to do it right; Melissa and I went the year after you guys did, and it was mainly at your urging that we participated at all. A great experience.</p>
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