Comments on: Three Against Hitler: Questions for Our Day

By: JA Benson

JA Benson — Tue, 17 May 2005 20:27:02 +0000

Mike-
I could not let this go. I too had an ancestor who was a leader at Mountain Meadows Massacre. I found this out in the last couple of years and needless to say this information unnerved me quite a bit. When I look at pictures of that man and his family it is hard to imagine that such a sweet family could have been involved to the extent that they were. Also knowing what I know about his life it saddens me to know that his character (probably eternal soul) will be tainted (maybe even damned) by that incident. I too have thought what side of the fence I would have fallen on.

I guess what it comes down to is personal revelation and free agency. I don’t think that we can go through life not using our own free agency when we are told to do something that we may be uncomfortable with “if we follow the leaders we are not accountable if anything bad happens (false doctrine).”

All that can be done about Mountain Meadows Massacre now is to not sweep it under the rug. We need to study the situation and learn from the mistakes that were made; learn from them and teach it to others.

Question—When/how did you find out you had an ancestor there? I have friend at the time whose ancestor is John D Lee and having been raised with the issue was able to help me work through it.

Thanks for you thought provoking post.

By: Mike

Mike — Tue, 17 May 2005 17:05:20 +0000

I join the discussion very late. I don’t vist her often, sorry.

Huebener was German and probably believed in the Nazi cause, at one point. Then he became disillusioned, “apostacized” from Nazism. It is easy to see things with moral clarity, looking back. But remember before Stalingrad it was far more likely than not that Germany would win the war. Winners write history and morally justify their actions. History is changed. Wrong gets redefined as right. I think these issues were not very clear at the time.

What Hueberner did made little difference. He was facing the near certainity of being drafted into the German Army which he realized was going to loose the war. So he might have thought his chances for survival were not very good either way. Once he understood the truth, he realized he was toast. He gave his life for the cause he believed in and really didn’t know all the complex ramifications of his actions. He hurt Germany by not being available to fight more than anything else.

Lets stop beating around the bushes and put the shoe on the other foot. These moral questions are easy when the authorities are unambigiously evil. What if they are not? Take for example, what if you had lived in Parowan Utah in 1857? Would you have followed my relatives, the Priesthood leaders, up to Mountain Meadows and helped massacre a hundred and twenty folks from Arkansas in the name of God? While we obsess about how much Brigham Young knew, do we find any “Huebenerites” who dissented from that action? I hate to admit that I think I would have gone up there and this bothers me more than whether The Prophet was involved.

Another more recent example still fresh and muddy is the actions some members took in connection with the Blacks and the Priesthood before 1978. I think if I go any farther down this road with the shoe on this other foot, to more contemporary examples of members of the church defying leaders who they perceive to be wrong, y’all will close your minds to this entire line of questions.

By: Chantel Hubbard

Chantel Hubbard — Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:41:33 +0000

I saw a friend with the book “Three Against Hitler” I was sitting at work doing absolutely no work. I got to page 30 or 31 I loved it I also enjoy the person Helmuth Huebener, his charicture is nothing I have heard of in my time. Which I am only 19 but that kid was so young he was like a brave little soldier that wasn’t scarred. Although he should have done more to protect his mind. I feel, from what I have read that he could have gone to great lengths with that kind of mind. He could have followed Einsteins reasearch so smart of a kid. He didnt do much except for stand up for his beliefs and only one person can make a difference but he was more than one person he was a great person. Helmuth Huebener did not end the pain of WWII he only understood it and tried to overcome the hurdles that no one person could. It wasnt just Hitler it was many that would fall with Hitler. Any comments please email me I love good, intellegent criticism. Although I cannot guarentee that I will be able to respond, but I will try.

Sincerely,

Chantel (from Utah)

By: Lindsay Sheffer

Lindsay Sheffer — Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:14:52 +0000

The question- how can we be good law-abiding citizens in a land where freedom is suppressed and the country is run by ideas that are blatantly evil- I think can only be answered one way with gauranteed accuracy. That way is prayer. Had I lived back then, I’d like to think that I would have prayed before I answered that question for myself. I really admire what Helmuth Huebener, Rudolf Wobbe, and Karl-Heinz Schnibbe did, I am almost positive that had every member of the Church in Germany at that time prayed about what to do, they would have recieved an answer that told them to respond similarly to the way those three boys did. I think that at all times, wherever we go, we must stand up for what we know is right. If we pray and ask for our Father in Heaven to help us as we do this, we are not then alone opposing the evils of this world, we have Him on our side who is more powerful than any dictator that ever lived, and through Him- all things are possible.

By: sid

sid — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

Very interesting topic, and one that has forced me to think hard. I have often wondered what kind of role Saints have played during, say, the Dirty war in Argentina in the 70′s and early 80′s, or in Peru during the time that country was in turmoil or in Guatemala and Nicaragua beofre and during the Sandinista s etc.
Did Church HQs in SLC have anything to say about events in these troubled South American countries? I wonder, becasue my friend Argentinian friend, who is a devout Catholic, and wh o grew up as a teenager and a college student in Argentina during the dark days of that country’s dirty War, insists that the LDS Church and the saints ( barring individual exceptions) were ‘collaborators” with t he likes of Gen galtieri. I dont know if this allegation is true at all, hope it isnt at all.

By: Jordan Fowles

Jordan Fowles — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

Re: when we should speak up and protest loudly. It depends on our political viewpoint. Here is when:

Republicans: Whenever a democrat is in power. I remember some hardcore Republicans predicting the end of the world during the Clinton administration. They protested- loudly. Some refused to pay their taxes.

Democrats: Whenever a republican is in power. Just look at the last four years!

Hardcore Democrats: Whenever ANYONE is in a position of ANY KIND of authority.

Well, seriously, I have had a very hard struggle with this question. My approach may be frowned on by the more politically active, but it has typically been to withdraw from the secular political realm and involve myself in missionary work, trying to teach my family and those within my sphere of influence correct principles that are not of this world.

I try to teach my family and friends about the sancity of life, the importance of families. I teach them about the proclamation to the world and let them read about gender and responsibility. I let them know that there is an afterlife in which people will be held accountable for their time on earth, but that there is a Savior also. They can draw their own conclusions.

I know that the church has counseled us to get involved politically. But I also feel that the solution to so many of our problems don’t lie in any legislation or its reversal. If I get persecuted by the government for teaching the gospel, then that is what will happen, and I suppose that will be my form of protest. While I feel bad for the state of this country as civil liberties begin to crumble and society gets more immoral, I still believe the best thing is to vote my conscience, and teach the gospel. It may not have overthrown Hitler, but it would have comforted those in oppression.

I guess I am a big wimp, in the scheme of things… *sigh*

By: Pelikan

Pelikan — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

Jordan, while i respect your opinion, I think it is incumbent on us to do something more than just going to Church and doing Missionary work when society is severely stressed. ( And the current situation in the US doesnot count , despite what hard core dems or Repubs may say) Say if one were in Nazi Germany or say, during the Dirty War in Argentina, I think the bigger sin would be if one just sat on ones hands, and pretended that there was nothing wrong, and if one were to just keep attending church and going out with the Elsers and Sisters, like as if noting was happening. We have to, as Saints, engage with the world, and take lessons learnt from the BOM and the Bible, plus lessons learnt from what Church leaders have taught, to try to change the world around us for the better.
As someone who sees what other Churches do, in terms of social wor and outreach, I am sometimes bothered by the fact that I rarely see Wards and Branches at the local level doing things like volunteering in their local communities, or doing social service projects. In t his respect, I see our Church as being moreof an inward looking organisation, and I am not sure why the reluctance among Saints to go out into the world and do things, unless it is as a missionary, or as a Stake or Ward Missionary. Why dont we, as individual Saints, want to interact with the world otherwise?

By: Jordan Fowles

Jordan Fowles — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

because the world is a cold, mean, hard place and unless I feel some sense of revelation to leave the sanctuary of my circle of influence, why leave?

Of course, the right issue would likely get me going. But I can’t say what I would have done had I lived in Nazi Germany. It is a question I asked myself many times as I have studied German history, literature, and culture.

By: Pelikan

Pelikan — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

Well, Jodan, during WWII, catholics, both lay people and members of the Clergy stood up to Hitler. Similarly in all the South American countries that suffered under brutal dictators. And they sure suffered a lot for it, and many were killed and maimed. I fear that our Church is going to become one where we pray and worship amongt ourselves, but, pretend that all is well outside the Church walls, even when we do know that it isnt.
At a much lesser level – sy, here in t he uSA, I fail to uderstand who local Branches and Wards dont take part in community social service activities – say like doing volunteer work with people in the poore rpart sin town, or doing say, reding programs with inner city kids to help with their academics. This allows the anti-Mormons and the fundi christians to say all kind of negative things about our Church. I dont understand the refusal to do any outreach work except unless it is the folks who are formally tasked to be missionaries

By: meg

meg — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

I think back to times, too, like the Revolutionary war. Would we have fought? Or, being subject to Kings, rulers, etc., lived with it? And if we just lived with it, where would the church be today?

This question came up at home when Parade (magazine) was asking teenagers when they would have liked to live and what they would have been doing.

I said I would have wanted to be active in the French Resistance and my friend about had a heart attack. “What?!?” But, what’s more important? The freedom of man or subjecting yourself to illegal rule?

The thing that amazes me most about the young men in Germany was that the Nazi’s didn’t just come and take you, they took your whole family. And, sometimes, your branch fell into that category.