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	<title>Comments on: The Industrial Organization of the Gospel</title>
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	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: clarkgoble</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/06/the-industrial-organization-of-the-gospel/#comment-3796</link>
		<dc:creator>clarkgoble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=924#comment-3796</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve not seen recent numbers Nate, but has the leveling off of growth the last 3 - 4 years been reversed by the changes in the Missonary program?  It seems to me that there need to be some fundamental changes in the missionary program.  I think the very model that was so successful from the 1940&#039;s to the mid 90&#039;s has stopped working.  Clearly the church recognizes this, but I think more significant changes are ahead.  That may even be the primary calling of whomever succeeds Pres. Hinkley.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve not seen recent numbers Nate, but has the leveling off of growth the last 3 &#8211; 4 years been reversed by the changes in the Missonary program?  It seems to me that there need to be some fundamental changes in the missionary program.  I think the very model that was so successful from the 1940&#8242;s to the mid 90&#8242;s has stopped working.  Clearly the church recognizes this, but I think more significant changes are ahead.  That may even be the primary calling of whomever succeeds Pres. Hinkley.</p>
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		<title>By: Kingsley</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/06/the-industrial-organization-of-the-gospel/#comment-3797</link>
		<dc:creator>Kingsley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=924#comment-3797</guid>
		<description>Not sure that the benefits of a universal male rite of passage would outweigh those of a leaner, more flexible missionary force--&lt;i&gt;if&lt;/i&gt; leaner &amp; more flexible = better success in the Field. Of course, part of that success is rigorous, rite of passage-type training for future Church Priesthood &amp; Relief Society leaders (on every level), but I&#039;m not convinced on the cruciality of the mission experience for such leadership. This is pretty standard anecdotal stuff, but I know plenty of non-returned missionaries who are excellent Saints (&amp; who are frequently hurt by the implication, which comes at them &lt;i&gt;frequently&lt;/i&gt;, that they&#039;re lacking somehow), &amp; plenty of returned missionaries who are barnacles on the ship of Church. Perhaps the leaner, meaner force will simply mean less barnacles &amp; more &amp; stronger converts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure that the benefits of a universal male rite of passage would outweigh those of a leaner, more flexible missionary force&#8211;<i>if</i> leaner &#038; more flexible = better success in the Field. Of course, part of that success is rigorous, rite of passage-type training for future Church Priesthood &#038; Relief Society leaders (on every level), but I&#8217;m not convinced on the cruciality of the mission experience for such leadership. This is pretty standard anecdotal stuff, but I know plenty of non-returned missionaries who are excellent Saints (&#038; who are frequently hurt by the implication, which comes at them <i>frequently</i>, that they&#8217;re lacking somehow), &#038; plenty of returned missionaries who are barnacles on the ship of Church. Perhaps the leaner, meaner force will simply mean less barnacles &#038; more &#038; stronger converts.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/06/the-industrial-organization-of-the-gospel/#comment-3798</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank McIntyre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=924#comment-3798</guid>
		<description>President Hinckley has spent a fair bit of energy emphasizing the &quot;every member a missionary&quot; idea and the importance of retention.  This would seem to be the key to continued growth in many (but not all) parts of the world.  He has not put any member missionary-work questions on the temple recommend interview yet, so I guess there is still room for more emphasis...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>President Hinckley has spent a fair bit of energy emphasizing the &#8220;every member a missionary&#8221; idea and the importance of retention.  This would seem to be the key to continued growth in many (but not all) parts of the world.  He has not put any member missionary-work questions on the temple recommend interview yet, so I guess there is still room for more emphasis&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: clark</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/06/the-industrial-organization-of-the-gospel/#comment-3799</link>
		<dc:creator>clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=924#comment-3799</guid>
		<description>The &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cumorah.com/report.html&quot;&gt;following is always informative&lt;/a&gt; when discussing these issues.  It&#039;s from last fall, which is why I&#039;m very curious about how recent changes have fared.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The <a href="http://www.cumorah.com/report.html">following is always informative</a> when discussing these issues.  It&#8217;s from last fall, which is why I&#8217;m very curious about how recent changes have fared.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Call</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/06/the-industrial-organization-of-the-gospel/#comment-3800</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Call</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=924#comment-3800</guid>
		<description>I think it is worth noting that both organizational types Nate describes are tied to particular epistemologies. Centrally planned hierarchies manage on the basis of top-down scientific-type rationality: &quot;if you have a problem, see what the manual says.&quot; 

The more flexible, decentralized firms allow for bottom-up, local problem-solving and experimentation on a more pragmatic basis. They implicitly accept that tacit, non-scientific knowledge is often superior for problem-solving.

The church&#039;s shift to the latter mode (if that&#039;s what is happening, and I&#039;m not too sanguine on that) might have interesting implications for issues of local control and voice in the church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it is worth noting that both organizational types Nate describes are tied to particular epistemologies. Centrally planned hierarchies manage on the basis of top-down scientific-type rationality: &#8220;if you have a problem, see what the manual says.&#8221; </p>
<p>The more flexible, decentralized firms allow for bottom-up, local problem-solving and experimentation on a more pragmatic basis. They implicitly accept that tacit, non-scientific knowledge is often superior for problem-solving.</p>
<p>The church&#8217;s shift to the latter mode (if that&#8217;s what is happening, and I&#8217;m not too sanguine on that) might have interesting implications for issues of local control and voice in the church.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/06/the-industrial-organization-of-the-gospel/#comment-3801</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank McIntyre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=924#comment-3801</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know my history well enough to say, but as the Church moved to young unmarried men for the missionary force, some sort of standardization is no surprise.  LeGrande Richards&#039; book being an early example.  So my reading of the history is that as the seminary program and other education tools became standard, and as more youth were raised in homes with strong doctrinal foundations (FHE), the missionaries as a group could be given freer reign because they could handle it.  

In this context, the call to have every young man be a missionary set a social norm.  Once that norm was set, which took a generation or more, the bar for qualifying is raised, which causes youth to scramble upwards (and some to fall) in order to meet the norm of serving a mission--- because they want to serve just like their dad and older brothers and uncles and two aunts and maybe their mom and most of the young men older than them in the ward did.  

During the period of establishing a mission norm, keeping standards lower (and doing more hand-holding for discussions) helps to establish the norm because more people can serve missions.  Some of them were not very good at it.  But it all helped establish a norm.  Now that the norm is established the higher bar increases effectiveness and pulls up some people who would otherwise not have lived up to the higher bar.  Either way, the Church starts the new century with more and better missionaries than if they hadn&#039;t gone through this process.  These missionaries are sufficiently qualified to handle a more &quot;teach by the spirit&quot; approach, because they are, as a group, more righteous and better trained through seminary and their homes.

In this reading of the changes, there is no reason to posit sharp reversals of policy.  There is only a steady continuation of changes with an eventual goal.  The whole point of prophecy is that one &lt;i&gt;can&lt;/i&gt; act slowly because one&#039;s foresight gives one more time to prepare.  I&#039;m perfectly willing to believe that mistakes were made along the way, and that many people at Church headquarters did not have this vission of what was to happen.  But I believe that God knew and guided the program such that what happened over the course of the century was according to his will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know my history well enough to say, but as the Church moved to young unmarried men for the missionary force, some sort of standardization is no surprise.  LeGrande Richards&#8217; book being an early example.  So my reading of the history is that as the seminary program and other education tools became standard, and as more youth were raised in homes with strong doctrinal foundations (FHE), the missionaries as a group could be given freer reign because they could handle it.  </p>
<p>In this context, the call to have every young man be a missionary set a social norm.  Once that norm was set, which took a generation or more, the bar for qualifying is raised, which causes youth to scramble upwards (and some to fall) in order to meet the norm of serving a mission&#8212; because they want to serve just like their dad and older brothers and uncles and two aunts and maybe their mom and most of the young men older than them in the ward did.  </p>
<p>During the period of establishing a mission norm, keeping standards lower (and doing more hand-holding for discussions) helps to establish the norm because more people can serve missions.  Some of them were not very good at it.  But it all helped establish a norm.  Now that the norm is established the higher bar increases effectiveness and pulls up some people who would otherwise not have lived up to the higher bar.  Either way, the Church starts the new century with more and better missionaries than if they hadn&#8217;t gone through this process.  These missionaries are sufficiently qualified to handle a more &#8220;teach by the spirit&#8221; approach, because they are, as a group, more righteous and better trained through seminary and their homes.</p>
<p>In this reading of the changes, there is no reason to posit sharp reversals of policy.  There is only a steady continuation of changes with an eventual goal.  The whole point of prophecy is that one <i>can</i> act slowly because one&#8217;s foresight gives one more time to prepare.  I&#8217;m perfectly willing to believe that mistakes were made along the way, and that many people at Church headquarters did not have this vission of what was to happen.  But I believe that God knew and guided the program such that what happened over the course of the century was according to his will.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Cooper</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/06/the-industrial-organization-of-the-gospel/#comment-3802</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Cooper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=924#comment-3802</guid>
		<description>I am overjoyed at the changes in the missionary program. I agree that this demonstrates the Lord&#039;s patient, guiding hand over the decades. I have seen the need for these changes for a long time, and welcome them. Thanks to Clark for posting the link to the updated article on church growth! I had seen the original report, and wondered if it had been updated.

Clearly, with the changes not only in American society as well as others throghout the world, there is a need to do things differently. Certainly our non-LDS Christian friends have seen the need to break out of the traditional, proselytization mode. The need to adapt missionary conversations to the individuals being taught (based on the Spirit), rather than rote, memorized discussions; adaptation of the work to the individual cultural conditions of each mission; a change of emphasis from numbers of baptisms to fewer baptisms but better retention; greater emphasis on preparing the convert for membership *before* their baptism, etc. I&#039;m thrilled--and I think the results of these changes (and we&#039;ve not seen all the changes that are coming, I believe) will be better rentention of converts, fewer &quot;missionary disasters&quot;, and more stabilized and productive level of Church growth. 

However, let me add this observation to the mix: Is it possible that one reason for the move away from canned discussions is because of the increasing number of areas where the Church exists but cannot proselytize? In addition, there are many areas of the world where the Church cannot enter, but may be able to soon, possibly very suddenly (hence the need to send missionaries at a moment&#039;s notice, with very little preparation). So, the need has never been greater for missionaries who are in tune enough to the Spirit, and morally straight and above reproach, who can be sent to areas of great danger and with little prep, where the Church must be built from scratch, where communication with Salt Lake may be sporadic, and where the preaching style of ancient times (think of Nephi in the book of Heleman being carried by the Spirit from place to place) may be more appropriate. Interesting....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am overjoyed at the changes in the missionary program. I agree that this demonstrates the Lord&#8217;s patient, guiding hand over the decades. I have seen the need for these changes for a long time, and welcome them. Thanks to Clark for posting the link to the updated article on church growth! I had seen the original report, and wondered if it had been updated.</p>
<p>Clearly, with the changes not only in American society as well as others throghout the world, there is a need to do things differently. Certainly our non-LDS Christian friends have seen the need to break out of the traditional, proselytization mode. The need to adapt missionary conversations to the individuals being taught (based on the Spirit), rather than rote, memorized discussions; adaptation of the work to the individual cultural conditions of each mission; a change of emphasis from numbers of baptisms to fewer baptisms but better retention; greater emphasis on preparing the convert for membership *before* their baptism, etc. I&#8217;m thrilled&#8211;and I think the results of these changes (and we&#8217;ve not seen all the changes that are coming, I believe) will be better rentention of converts, fewer &#8220;missionary disasters&#8221;, and more stabilized and productive level of Church growth. </p>
<p>However, let me add this observation to the mix: Is it possible that one reason for the move away from canned discussions is because of the increasing number of areas where the Church exists but cannot proselytize? In addition, there are many areas of the world where the Church cannot enter, but may be able to soon, possibly very suddenly (hence the need to send missionaries at a moment&#8217;s notice, with very little preparation). So, the need has never been greater for missionaries who are in tune enough to the Spirit, and morally straight and above reproach, who can be sent to areas of great danger and with little prep, where the Church must be built from scratch, where communication with Salt Lake may be sporadic, and where the preaching style of ancient times (think of Nephi in the book of Heleman being carried by the Spirit from place to place) may be more appropriate. Interesting&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Lee</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/06/the-industrial-organization-of-the-gospel/#comment-3803</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=924#comment-3803</guid>
		<description>I guess I am missing something here.  For all the talk about raising the bar, I am not sure that there has been a material change in the height of the bar or in the qualifications of missionaries being sent.  I believe that some with physical and mental or emotional difficulties are now less likely to be approved, but the number so affected is relatively small.  I can see no sign that departing missionaries are any better prepared than they were in the past.

With respect to changes in the teaching methods, I am also puzzled.  I was a missionary about 25 years ago and teaching by the Spirit was not exactly an unfamiliar concept.  I had the discussions memorized perfectly, but almost never taught them that way.  I always thought we were supposed to tailor the discussions to our audience, so I am not sure what has changed.  Most missionaries are not terribly articulate.  I hope that &quot;teaching by the Spirit&quot; does not become a euphemism for &quot;completely unprepared to teach&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess I am missing something here.  For all the talk about raising the bar, I am not sure that there has been a material change in the height of the bar or in the qualifications of missionaries being sent.  I believe that some with physical and mental or emotional difficulties are now less likely to be approved, but the number so affected is relatively small.  I can see no sign that departing missionaries are any better prepared than they were in the past.</p>
<p>With respect to changes in the teaching methods, I am also puzzled.  I was a missionary about 25 years ago and teaching by the Spirit was not exactly an unfamiliar concept.  I had the discussions memorized perfectly, but almost never taught them that way.  I always thought we were supposed to tailor the discussions to our audience, so I am not sure what has changed.  Most missionaries are not terribly articulate.  I hope that &#8220;teaching by the Spirit&#8221; does not become a euphemism for &#8220;completely unprepared to teach&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Call</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/06/the-industrial-organization-of-the-gospel/#comment-3804</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Call</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=924#comment-3804</guid>
		<description>In the most recent Ensign, Elders Scott and Didier discuss the changes to the missionary program. &lt;a href=&quot;http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm&quot;&gt;Click here for the interview&lt;/a&gt;. The following remark, by Elder Scott, indicates that the changes may have been made to help convert missionaries as much as non-members: &quot;When missionaries do this consistently over a period of time, not only are they going to be more effective missionaries, but they will eventually be better husbands and wives, fathers and mothers, because the reality of the magnificent message becomes a part of their very being.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the most recent Ensign, Elders Scott and Didier discuss the changes to the missionary program. <a href="http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm">Click here for the interview</a>. The following remark, by Elder Scott, indicates that the changes may have been made to help convert missionaries as much as non-members: &#8220;When missionaries do this consistently over a period of time, not only are they going to be more effective missionaries, but they will eventually be better husbands and wives, fathers and mothers, because the reality of the magnificent message becomes a part of their very being.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/06/the-industrial-organization-of-the-gospel/#comment-3805</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=924#comment-3805</guid>
		<description>Too much labor, not enough capital: that&#039;s a factor-analysis take on the missionary program.  To make labor productive requires supplying the right tools and equipment (capital), which for missionaries would be cars, computers, telephones, books and supplies, a house or apartment, and so forth.  No different than how a business needs to provide its workers the right tools and equipment to make them productive.

Why is there too much labor?  Because underpriced factors get overused in production.  Missionary labor is way underpriced (unpaid, volunteer labor, no wages to pay and families even pay room and board!) so it gets way overused.  The Church has too many missionaries, but can&#039;t bring itself, seemingly, to make significant cuts in recruitment.

It&#039;s odd, really, that every calling in the Church is initiated from above except being a missionary, where one volunteers and the Church doesn&#039;t say no.  What would happen if people could volunteer to be Sunday School teachers and the Church couldn&#039;t bring itself to say no?  Probably too many teachers.

So maybe the solution is to make a mission calling no different from standard church callings (including leadership callings).  This would also take some of the present social stigma out of not going on a mission.  It seems like the most direct and straightforward way of achieving a smaller, more productive missionary corps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Too much labor, not enough capital: that&#8217;s a factor-analysis take on the missionary program.  To make labor productive requires supplying the right tools and equipment (capital), which for missionaries would be cars, computers, telephones, books and supplies, a house or apartment, and so forth.  No different than how a business needs to provide its workers the right tools and equipment to make them productive.</p>
<p>Why is there too much labor?  Because underpriced factors get overused in production.  Missionary labor is way underpriced (unpaid, volunteer labor, no wages to pay and families even pay room and board!) so it gets way overused.  The Church has too many missionaries, but can&#8217;t bring itself, seemingly, to make significant cuts in recruitment.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s odd, really, that every calling in the Church is initiated from above except being a missionary, where one volunteers and the Church doesn&#8217;t say no.  What would happen if people could volunteer to be Sunday School teachers and the Church couldn&#8217;t bring itself to say no?  Probably too many teachers.</p>
<p>So maybe the solution is to make a mission calling no different from standard church callings (including leadership callings).  This would also take some of the present social stigma out of not going on a mission.  It seems like the most direct and straightforward way of achieving a smaller, more productive missionary corps.</p>
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