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	<title>Comments on: The Value of Esotericism</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/05/the-value-of-esotericism/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Julie in Austin</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/05/the-value-of-esotericism/#comment-2056</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie in Austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=811#comment-2056</guid>
		<description>One other benefit, as I mentioned in the BCC discussion about the Temple, is:  no one interprets the Temple for you.  This is a huge plus in my opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One other benefit, as I mentioned in the BCC discussion about the Temple, is:  no one interprets the Temple for you.  This is a huge plus in my opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: Julie in Austin</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/05/the-value-of-esotericism/#comment-2057</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie in Austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=811#comment-2057</guid>
		<description>Another thought, brought about by the fact that I am working on a batch of FHE lessons today:  pedagogical.  When I teach adults NT, concepts like intratextuality, chiasmus, and alternative Greek meanings come up.  Not so with the 6 and 2.5 year olds.

Imagine, if you will, that the First Vision contained everything Joseph, nay, every prophet, needed to know about everything from Area Authority Seventies to Guidelines for Roadshows.  I think God&#039;s practice of esotericism (and our modeling of it) is justified on pedagogical reasons alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another thought, brought about by the fact that I am working on a batch of FHE lessons today:  pedagogical.  When I teach adults NT, concepts like intratextuality, chiasmus, and alternative Greek meanings come up.  Not so with the 6 and 2.5 year olds.</p>
<p>Imagine, if you will, that the First Vision contained everything Joseph, nay, every prophet, needed to know about everything from Area Authority Seventies to Guidelines for Roadshows.  I think God&#8217;s practice of esotericism (and our modeling of it) is justified on pedagogical reasons alone.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Huff</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/05/the-value-of-esotericism/#comment-2058</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Huff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=811#comment-2058</guid>
		<description>I am so with you, Julie!

Sure it complicates matters if the temple ceremony is available on the internet (tho I hope to never see it there myself -- it&#039;s upsetting enough just to hear about it), but I don&#039;t see it fundamentally changing the dynamic of temple seclusion.  The temple structures our community and our lives.  Anything that goes on on the internet is clearly extraneous to the structure the temple establishes.  It&#039;s really not a simple matter of information; if it were, there would be no need for temple seclusion in the first place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am so with you, Julie!</p>
<p>Sure it complicates matters if the temple ceremony is available on the internet (tho I hope to never see it there myself &#8212; it&#8217;s upsetting enough just to hear about it), but I don&#8217;t see it fundamentally changing the dynamic of temple seclusion.  The temple structures our community and our lives.  Anything that goes on on the internet is clearly extraneous to the structure the temple establishes.  It&#8217;s really not a simple matter of information; if it were, there would be no need for temple seclusion in the first place.</p>
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		<title>By: diogenes</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/05/the-value-of-esotericism/#comment-2059</link>
		<dc:creator>diogenes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=811#comment-2059</guid>
		<description>I confess I have rather mixed feelings about the appearance of the temple ceremony(ies) on the Internet.

On the one hand, I consider myself under covenenant not to post such information myself.  On the other hand, having received my endowment under a different, earlier version of the ceremony, I&#039;ve found it extremely valuable to be able to compare promises I made and instruction I received initially with what is found in the current version of the endowment. I don&#039;t think that&#039;s what the purveyors of the temple ceremony websites had in mind, but it&#039;s a highly useful side benefit.

So -- two cheers for transparency, I suppose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I confess I have rather mixed feelings about the appearance of the temple ceremony(ies) on the Internet.</p>
<p>On the one hand, I consider myself under covenenant not to post such information myself.  On the other hand, having received my endowment under a different, earlier version of the ceremony, I&#8217;ve found it extremely valuable to be able to compare promises I made and instruction I received initially with what is found in the current version of the endowment. I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s what the purveyors of the temple ceremony websites had in mind, but it&#8217;s a highly useful side benefit.</p>
<p>So &#8212; two cheers for transparency, I suppose.</p>
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		<title>By: lyle</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/05/the-value-of-esotericism/#comment-2060</link>
		<dc:creator>lyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=811#comment-2060</guid>
		<description>Hm.  So...simple yes/no.  Were the changes &quot;significant&quot; or material?  Do the new &quot;revisions&quot;/&quot;refinements&quot; (i.e. the changes) supercede the originals (i.e. only bound by the &#039;new&#039; covenants)?  

re: Abinadi.  I don&#039;t know if his example has much value.  While it says he &quot;entered&quot; the city in disguise...his very first words identified him explicitly.    just a thought. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hm.  So&#8230;simple yes/no.  Were the changes &#8220;significant&#8221; or material?  Do the new &#8220;revisions&#8221;/&#8221;refinements&#8221; (i.e. the changes) supercede the originals (i.e. only bound by the &#8216;new&#8217; covenants)?  </p>
<p>re: Abinadi.  I don&#8217;t know if his example has much value.  While it says he &#8220;entered&#8221; the city in disguise&#8230;his very first words identified him explicitly.    just a thought. :)</p>
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		<title>By: diogenes</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/05/the-value-of-esotericism/#comment-2061</link>
		<dc:creator>diogenes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=811#comment-2061</guid>
		<description>In response to Lyle:

Yes, the changes were significant and material.  I consider the redacted portions to be extremely important to my understanding of the endowment, and often wonder what more recent initiates understand of the ceremony without those portions.

Since I have participated in the more recent endowment version only for vicarious ordinances on behalf of the dead, I consider myself responsible for the initial version that was conducted for me, although your question of superceding ordinances has occurred to me. 

Regarding Abinadi&#039;s &quot;disguise,&quot; see Alan Goff&#039;s discussion of the disguise motif in OT Hebrew narrative, &quot;Uncritical Theory and Thin Description: The Resistance to History&quot; (Review of Metcalf), FARMS Rev. of Books on The BOM, vol. 7 no.1 170 -207 (1995).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to Lyle:</p>
<p>Yes, the changes were significant and material.  I consider the redacted portions to be extremely important to my understanding of the endowment, and often wonder what more recent initiates understand of the ceremony without those portions.</p>
<p>Since I have participated in the more recent endowment version only for vicarious ordinances on behalf of the dead, I consider myself responsible for the initial version that was conducted for me, although your question of superceding ordinances has occurred to me. </p>
<p>Regarding Abinadi&#8217;s &#8220;disguise,&#8221; see Alan Goff&#8217;s discussion of the disguise motif in OT Hebrew narrative, &#8220;Uncritical Theory and Thin Description: The Resistance to History&#8221; (Review of Metcalf), FARMS Rev. of Books on The BOM, vol. 7 no.1 170 -207 (1995).</p>
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		<title>By: obi-wan</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/05/the-value-of-esotericism/#comment-2062</link>
		<dc:creator>obi-wan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=811#comment-2062</guid>
		<description>There appears over time to be a strong tendency toward esotericism in most human associations -- witness the development of everything from gnosticism, Kabbalism, and ancient mystery religions, to college fraternities, kids&#039; backyard tree-house clubs, GW Bush&#039;s fundraising &quot;Pioneers,&quot; and so on.

So perhaps the value in &quot;official&quot; Church esotericism is to co-opt the trend for the Lord&#039;s purposes before it gets going on its own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There appears over time to be a strong tendency toward esotericism in most human associations &#8212; witness the development of everything from gnosticism, Kabbalism, and ancient mystery religions, to college fraternities, kids&#8217; backyard tree-house clubs, GW Bush&#8217;s fundraising &#8220;Pioneers,&#8221; and so on.</p>
<p>So perhaps the value in &#8220;official&#8221; Church esotericism is to co-opt the trend for the Lord&#8217;s purposes before it gets going on its own.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Huff</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/05/the-value-of-esotericism/#comment-2063</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Huff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=811#comment-2063</guid>
		<description>Esotericism in Mormon film is coming up in my thread on &lt;i&gt;The RM&lt;/i&gt; : )
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.timesandseasons.org/archives/000806.html#012224&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.timesandseasons.org/archives/000806.html#012259&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Esotericism in Mormon film is coming up in my thread on <i>The RM</i> : )<br />
<a href="http://www.timesandseasons.org/archives/000806.html#012224">here</a> and <a href="http://www.timesandseasons.org/archives/000806.html#012259">here</a></p>
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		<title>By: greenfrog</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/05/the-value-of-esotericism/#comment-2064</link>
		<dc:creator>greenfrog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=811#comment-2064</guid>
		<description>Esotericism also suited the Gadianton robbers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Esotericism also suited the Gadianton robbers.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan M.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/05/the-value-of-esotericism/#comment-2065</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=811#comment-2065</guid>
		<description>I find this aspect of the Gospel to be quite interesting.  Remember that Christ spoke in parables so that those around HIm without the spiritual capacity to live up to the principles He taught would not bring condemnation upon themselves.  The Parable of the Talents also hints at the fact that we will be judged according to the capacities that we are given in this life.  This means someone with an utterly rudimentary understanding of the Gospel will have a throne right alongside the prophet&#039;s if he lives up to the light that he is given. 

Lots of things are turning up on the Internet that expose some of our more esoteric teachings.  I&#039;ve found most of it to be gross misreresentations of doctrine.  Many people (members and non) take a few isolated comments from church authorities and synthesize them in an effort to create their own pseudo-doctrines.  I don&#039;t really take that stuff seriously, but a lot of stuff is posted that is real.  The danger is that people will become cognizant of doctrine that they&#039;re not prepared to live, and thus bring upon themselves damnation.  Is this possible from mere exposure to the doctrine, or do they have to understand it comprehensively?  I&#039;d like to think that God is much more merciful than that.

I once asked the president of a temple about the meaning of the endowment, and he shared some statements that Joseph Smith made.  He said the meaning is too complex for even him to try to explain.  He also said it is different for everyone.  We are all individuals, and God helps us along according to our capacities and our desires.  In the end, desires will play as big a part (if not bigger) in our salvation than our actual worthiness.

I noticed an interesting trend while I was on my mission.  I was looking through old copies of the church publications and I noticed that they used to address deep doctrinal issues.  It came to my attention that the church is slowly withdrawing itself from providing black and white answers to these principles.  Why?  I believe it&#039;s to separate the wheat from the rocks.  Those that have the ability to recognize and follow the promptings of the Spirit will learn to find answers.  Others will slowly drift away.  I think this will purge the church of those that aren&#039;t really in it for the long haul.  Once the Law of Consecration is reinstated the church should have the riff-raff filtered out.

I think we need to worry about living up to the principles we understand best before we start worrying about more esoteric stuff.  How many of us can say we live the law Christ sets forth in Luke 6:27-36?  That&#039;s not esoteric at all, but I&#039;d wager (if I were a wagering man) that it&#039;s one of the more difficult principles that exists in the church.  I worry about living that law more than understanding the Adam-God theory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find this aspect of the Gospel to be quite interesting.  Remember that Christ spoke in parables so that those around HIm without the spiritual capacity to live up to the principles He taught would not bring condemnation upon themselves.  The Parable of the Talents also hints at the fact that we will be judged according to the capacities that we are given in this life.  This means someone with an utterly rudimentary understanding of the Gospel will have a throne right alongside the prophet&#8217;s if he lives up to the light that he is given. </p>
<p>Lots of things are turning up on the Internet that expose some of our more esoteric teachings.  I&#8217;ve found most of it to be gross misreresentations of doctrine.  Many people (members and non) take a few isolated comments from church authorities and synthesize them in an effort to create their own pseudo-doctrines.  I don&#8217;t really take that stuff seriously, but a lot of stuff is posted that is real.  The danger is that people will become cognizant of doctrine that they&#8217;re not prepared to live, and thus bring upon themselves damnation.  Is this possible from mere exposure to the doctrine, or do they have to understand it comprehensively?  I&#8217;d like to think that God is much more merciful than that.</p>
<p>I once asked the president of a temple about the meaning of the endowment, and he shared some statements that Joseph Smith made.  He said the meaning is too complex for even him to try to explain.  He also said it is different for everyone.  We are all individuals, and God helps us along according to our capacities and our desires.  In the end, desires will play as big a part (if not bigger) in our salvation than our actual worthiness.</p>
<p>I noticed an interesting trend while I was on my mission.  I was looking through old copies of the church publications and I noticed that they used to address deep doctrinal issues.  It came to my attention that the church is slowly withdrawing itself from providing black and white answers to these principles.  Why?  I believe it&#8217;s to separate the wheat from the rocks.  Those that have the ability to recognize and follow the promptings of the Spirit will learn to find answers.  Others will slowly drift away.  I think this will purge the church of those that aren&#8217;t really in it for the long haul.  Once the Law of Consecration is reinstated the church should have the riff-raff filtered out.</p>
<p>I think we need to worry about living up to the principles we understand best before we start worrying about more esoteric stuff.  How many of us can say we live the law Christ sets forth in Luke 6:27-36?  That&#8217;s not esoteric at all, but I&#8217;d wager (if I were a wagering man) that it&#8217;s one of the more difficult principles that exists in the church.  I worry about living that law more than understanding the Adam-God theory.</p>
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