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	<title>Comments on: Missionary Work and the Fear of the Spirit</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/04/missionary-work-and-the-fear-of-the-spirit/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Kingsley</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/04/missionary-work-and-the-fear-of-the-spirit/#comment-674</link>
		<dc:creator>Kingsley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=740#comment-674</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know that I would describe modern prophets, proxy baptisms, and eternal families as &quot;attractive hooks&quot; that prelude spiritual confirmation; they&#039;re more like restored truths that engender spiritual confirmation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know that I would describe modern prophets, proxy baptisms, and eternal families as &#8220;attractive hooks&#8221; that prelude spiritual confirmation; they&#8217;re more like restored truths that engender spiritual confirmation.</p>
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		<title>By: Kingsley</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/04/missionary-work-and-the-fear-of-the-spirit/#comment-675</link>
		<dc:creator>Kingsley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=740#comment-675</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t mean to be glib. I sometimes fear that the more accessible and &quot;popular&quot; doctrines and practices of the Church are denegrated because of their popularity, like C.S. Lewis at Oxford as soon as Screwtape started to sell well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t mean to be glib. I sometimes fear that the more accessible and &#8220;popular&#8221; doctrines and practices of the Church are denegrated because of their popularity, like C.S. Lewis at Oxford as soon as Screwtape started to sell well.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Brown</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/04/missionary-work-and-the-fear-of-the-spirit/#comment-676</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=740#comment-676</guid>
		<description>Kingsley,

There are any number of Mormon doctrines that could be described as &quot;restored truths that engender spiritual confirmation.&quot;  But there is a subset of our teachings that we believe (rightly, in many cases) will be initially attractive to those who might hear about the Church.  There&#039;s a reason the Church doesn&#039;t produce pamphlets or videos entitled &quot;You Get to Pay 10% of Your Income to the Church!  Hooray!&quot;  Most people aren&#039;t going through life, looking for organizations to give money away to (at least not ones that make it a &quot;requirement&quot;).  But many are looking for moral or spiritual guidance, or have questions about the meaning of life or the afterlife.  We pitch these &quot;hooks&quot; initially in the hope that people will pay attention long enough to maybe stick around, absorb some of the more &quot;difficult&quot; or &quot;dry&quot; subjects, and even take the discussions seriously enough to decide to pray and seek spiritual confirmation.  

One of the points I was trying to highlight is this:  Much of the rhetoric in the Church about how &quot;only the Spirit matters,&quot; even if true in other contexts, simply doesn&#039;t fly with respect to potential investigators&#039; initial contact with the Church (Adam&#039;s pentecostal friends excepted).  Everybody knows this.  But for whatever reason, we sometimes don&#039;t like to say it out loud.

Aaron B</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kingsley,</p>
<p>There are any number of Mormon doctrines that could be described as &#8220;restored truths that engender spiritual confirmation.&#8221;  But there is a subset of our teachings that we believe (rightly, in many cases) will be initially attractive to those who might hear about the Church.  There&#8217;s a reason the Church doesn&#8217;t produce pamphlets or videos entitled &#8220;You Get to Pay 10% of Your Income to the Church!  Hooray!&#8221;  Most people aren&#8217;t going through life, looking for organizations to give money away to (at least not ones that make it a &#8220;requirement&#8221;).  But many are looking for moral or spiritual guidance, or have questions about the meaning of life or the afterlife.  We pitch these &#8220;hooks&#8221; initially in the hope that people will pay attention long enough to maybe stick around, absorb some of the more &#8220;difficult&#8221; or &#8220;dry&#8221; subjects, and even take the discussions seriously enough to decide to pray and seek spiritual confirmation.  </p>
<p>One of the points I was trying to highlight is this:  Much of the rhetoric in the Church about how &#8220;only the Spirit matters,&#8221; even if true in other contexts, simply doesn&#8217;t fly with respect to potential investigators&#8217; initial contact with the Church (Adam&#8217;s pentecostal friends excepted).  Everybody knows this.  But for whatever reason, we sometimes don&#8217;t like to say it out loud.</p>
<p>Aaron B</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/04/missionary-work-and-the-fear-of-the-spirit/#comment-677</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=740#comment-677</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think Aaron or I are using &#039;attractive&#039; with some sort of postmodern distance.  By attractive doctrines we mean doctrines that attract people to investigate the Church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think Aaron or I are using &#8216;attractive&#8217; with some sort of postmodern distance.  By attractive doctrines we mean doctrines that attract people to investigate the Church.</p>
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		<title>By: MDS</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/04/missionary-work-and-the-fear-of-the-spirit/#comment-678</link>
		<dc:creator>MDS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=740#comment-678</guid>
		<description>My experience, for what it is worth:

I spent a good six months of my mission (in Germany) convinced that the message of eternal families was the selling point that would lead to success as a missionary.  I focused on nothing else, regardless of when or where I was proselytizing.  While the approach yielded a few potential families that investigated, it resulted in zero converts.  Most people responded that they did not believe the &quot;&#039;til death do us part&quot; spiel anyway, and were certain that God would allow them to be together with their families; after all, He is a loving God, right?

In retrospect, the three conversions that I was allowed to participate in were all a result of people being sold on the Book of Mormon, reading it fairly thoroughly, praying about it, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My experience, for what it is worth:</p>
<p>I spent a good six months of my mission (in Germany) convinced that the message of eternal families was the selling point that would lead to success as a missionary.  I focused on nothing else, regardless of when or where I was proselytizing.  While the approach yielded a few potential families that investigated, it resulted in zero converts.  Most people responded that they did not believe the &#8220;&#8217;til death do us part&#8221; spiel anyway, and were certain that God would allow them to be together with their families; after all, He is a loving God, right?</p>
<p>In retrospect, the three conversions that I was allowed to participate in were all a result of people being sold on the Book of Mormon, reading it fairly thoroughly, praying about it, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Kingsley</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/04/missionary-work-and-the-fear-of-the-spirit/#comment-679</link>
		<dc:creator>Kingsley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=740#comment-679</guid>
		<description>Like I said, no glibness intended. I served in Virginia/West Virginia and found that tithing was generally accepted and even expected right away, while the Word of Wisdom (what, no iced tea!) and the idea of a universal apostasy were consistently balked at. Call it naiveté, idealism, etc., but I never thought of myself as flailing around for hooks or betting that certain selling points would “make worthwhile the enormous emotional and time commitment of trying to get a spiritual confirmation.” It was more the line upon line principle: you get a spiritual confirmation of x, which leads to a spiritual confirmation of y, and so on. 

Of course, it wasn’t always nice and orderly like that: different things rang true to different people. Perhaps you’d get to the third or fourth discussion without one Eureka! moment—but when that moment came, this process would start. Arthur Henry King, for example, after getting a spiritual confirmation of one aspect of Joseph Smith—History, reasoned that “I ought to believe other things he tells me, even though I haven’t got the same evidence of those. The story of the finding and disappearance of [the gold plates] seemed absurd to me. … It took me a long time to appreciate the Book of Mormon.” (Arm the Children, 43.) In other words, what was initially attractive to him wasn’t somehow separate from “trying to get a spiritual confirmation.” It was a spiritual confirmation, the first in a long line of them. As far as I remember, the selling points you specifically mentioned were spread pretty evenly throughout the lessons.  

Anyhow, that’s my two cents—a response to your question about the typicality of your experience. I apologize if I came across facilely before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like I said, no glibness intended. I served in Virginia/West Virginia and found that tithing was generally accepted and even expected right away, while the Word of Wisdom (what, no iced tea!) and the idea of a universal apostasy were consistently balked at. Call it naiveté, idealism, etc., but I never thought of myself as flailing around for hooks or betting that certain selling points would “make worthwhile the enormous emotional and time commitment of trying to get a spiritual confirmation.” It was more the line upon line principle: you get a spiritual confirmation of x, which leads to a spiritual confirmation of y, and so on. </p>
<p>Of course, it wasn’t always nice and orderly like that: different things rang true to different people. Perhaps you’d get to the third or fourth discussion without one Eureka! moment—but when that moment came, this process would start. Arthur Henry King, for example, after getting a spiritual confirmation of one aspect of Joseph Smith—History, reasoned that “I ought to believe other things he tells me, even though I haven’t got the same evidence of those. The story of the finding and disappearance of [the gold plates] seemed absurd to me. … It took me a long time to appreciate the Book of Mormon.” (Arm the Children, 43.) In other words, what was initially attractive to him wasn’t somehow separate from “trying to get a spiritual confirmation.” It was a spiritual confirmation, the first in a long line of them. As far as I remember, the selling points you specifically mentioned were spread pretty evenly throughout the lessons.  </p>
<p>Anyhow, that’s my two cents—a response to your question about the typicality of your experience. I apologize if I came across facilely before.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/04/missionary-work-and-the-fear-of-the-spirit/#comment-680</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=740#comment-680</guid>
		<description>I see what you mean, Kingsley.  Would it be accurate to say that you&#039;re describing a series of *quiet* spiritual confirmations?  Did you ever experience anything like I did, where a dramatic initial spiritual experience with the missionaries turned people off?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see what you mean, Kingsley.  Would it be accurate to say that you&#8217;re describing a series of *quiet* spiritual confirmations?  Did you ever experience anything like I did, where a dramatic initial spiritual experience with the missionaries turned people off?</p>
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		<title>By: Kingsley</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/04/missionary-work-and-the-fear-of-the-spirit/#comment-681</link>
		<dc:creator>Kingsley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=740#comment-681</guid>
		<description>Yes, almost stunningly so. In my first area we taught a family who had a little girl suffering from a severe eye infection. One night, just after completing the third discussion with its claims of a restored priesthood, the father asked that we heal the little girl (believing that we were true agents of Jesus Christ). We were both very new, and very frightened, but we administered to her and she was healed—presto. It was one of those things, those rare experiences. Her eyes turned all milky white and she slept peacefully for the first time in months. The next day her doctor said he’d never seen anything like it, etc. We thought (being new) that this experience would put the nail in the coffin, so to speak—they’d have to join the Church now; which they did; but then they just sort of petered out. The miracle, I think, was too much for them. It pushed them into joining hurriedly out of a sense of obligation and perhaps fear. Ironic. The people who really “stuck” generally did so after a long series of sessions with the still small voice, rather than anything thunderous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, almost stunningly so. In my first area we taught a family who had a little girl suffering from a severe eye infection. One night, just after completing the third discussion with its claims of a restored priesthood, the father asked that we heal the little girl (believing that we were true agents of Jesus Christ). We were both very new, and very frightened, but we administered to her and she was healed—presto. It was one of those things, those rare experiences. Her eyes turned all milky white and she slept peacefully for the first time in months. The next day her doctor said he’d never seen anything like it, etc. We thought (being new) that this experience would put the nail in the coffin, so to speak—they’d have to join the Church now; which they did; but then they just sort of petered out. The miracle, I think, was too much for them. It pushed them into joining hurriedly out of a sense of obligation and perhaps fear. Ironic. The people who really “stuck” generally did so after a long series of sessions with the still small voice, rather than anything thunderous.</p>
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		<title>By: John H</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/04/missionary-work-and-the-fear-of-the-spirit/#comment-682</link>
		<dc:creator>John H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=740#comment-682</guid>
		<description>My mission experience was similar in that I would pitch ideas I thought would be attractive to investigators. My experience with teaching about eternal families is almost identitcal to MDS (sorry I don&#039;t know your real name). I think we in the Church see that as the most appealing doctrine and we convince ourselves that most everyone outside the Church is terrified of &quot;til death do us part&quot; when I&#039;ve found the reality to be that most people believe that a loving God wouldn&#039;t separate them from friends and family.

In regards to spiritual confirmation, I think there&#039;s a reality that needs to be faced: many, many people have never had it. They&#039;ve never felt it, or at least they think they never have. Perhaps that&#039;s why it&#039;s always the same five or six people getting up on Fast Sunday to bear their testimony. I&#039;m surprised at how many people I&#039;ve spoken to who are willing to confide that they&#039;ve never had an experience that confirms the Church is the true church. They have faith that it is, and they hope that it is, and their heritage and the attractiveness of the doctrines often bids them to stay involved, but I frankly think we&#039;re fooling ourselves if we think we have congregations loaded with people who have had the spirit confirm the truth of the Gospel to them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My mission experience was similar in that I would pitch ideas I thought would be attractive to investigators. My experience with teaching about eternal families is almost identitcal to MDS (sorry I don&#8217;t know your real name). I think we in the Church see that as the most appealing doctrine and we convince ourselves that most everyone outside the Church is terrified of &#8220;til death do us part&#8221; when I&#8217;ve found the reality to be that most people believe that a loving God wouldn&#8217;t separate them from friends and family.</p>
<p>In regards to spiritual confirmation, I think there&#8217;s a reality that needs to be faced: many, many people have never had it. They&#8217;ve never felt it, or at least they think they never have. Perhaps that&#8217;s why it&#8217;s always the same five or six people getting up on Fast Sunday to bear their testimony. I&#8217;m surprised at how many people I&#8217;ve spoken to who are willing to confide that they&#8217;ve never had an experience that confirms the Church is the true church. They have faith that it is, and they hope that it is, and their heritage and the attractiveness of the doctrines often bids them to stay involved, but I frankly think we&#8217;re fooling ourselves if we think we have congregations loaded with people who have had the spirit confirm the truth of the Gospel to them.</p>
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		<title>By: Kingsley</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/04/missionary-work-and-the-fear-of-the-spirit/#comment-683</link>
		<dc:creator>Kingsley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=740#comment-683</guid>
		<description>Perhaps. But probably the situation “on the ground” is a little more complicated than Yes or No as far as a spiritual witness of the Gospel is concerned. A lot of testimony bearing goes on in priesthood, Sunday School, etc.—it’s not limited to fast Sundays. Probably our congregations aren’t crowded with folks who’ve had every doubt washed away by some sort of end-all revelation; but the sort of quiet spiritual confirmation that Adam describes seem quite common.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps. But probably the situation “on the ground” is a little more complicated than Yes or No as far as a spiritual witness of the Gospel is concerned. A lot of testimony bearing goes on in priesthood, Sunday School, etc.—it’s not limited to fast Sundays. Probably our congregations aren’t crowded with folks who’ve had every doubt washed away by some sort of end-all revelation; but the sort of quiet spiritual confirmation that Adam describes seem quite common.</p>
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